Prismatic tricksters- Elf/Wizard/Divine Oracle/Deadly Trickster

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This is pretty much a pure offensive build.

Elf wand wizard.

Pick as many vs will daily and encounter powers as you can. Pump dex and int, 13 wisdom, have 12 charisma.

Multi-class Cleric/Divine Oracle

Epic Destiny: Deadly Trickster.(don't forget the skill focus)

The core of the issue:

1 re-roll/encounter
3 re-rolls/day.

Every time you use a power that attacks will(which will be all of them) you roll twice and take the best.

Every time you roll a 18,19, or 20 on one of those powers that you are rolling twice for, you do not lose the ability.

This means that 27% of the time you do not lose any daily power that attacks will that you use. When you re-roll one of those d20s its a 38.5% chance that you will not lose the use of the power. You can do this three times per day and 1 time per encounter. Assuming you use 2 dailies per encounter there is roughly a 60% chance you will regain the use of one of them.

Even if you do not, epic trick lets you regain all your daily powers so you can start over and try again.

Powers to pick:

Legions Hold, Prismatic Spray/Maze, Prismatic Beams


Other ways to make this disgusting:

Blood Mage instead of Divine Oracle. Rogue Multi-Class for thievery to meet Deadly trickster requirement. Pick up "Hide in Plain sight". Skill Train: Stealth. Pick Invisibility and Blur as two of your utilities and/or similar.

You're now invisible 4 encounters/day and can cast spells while invisible so long as you don't move. Twice a day you can make this happen as a minor action(time stop, [invisible, move to new location], hide in plain sight, attack action=1 full round). You can lay down lots of zones while doing so and regain their use if they have attack rolls. You can use an encounter power twice an encounter twice a day. You can bolster most anything without fear that anyone will find you(for the most part) and make you suffer for having low hit points.

Note: A warlock/rogue can do this every encounter by using his level 22 utility to take Infuriating elusiveness and hide in plain sight.
I'm sorry, but this is just a very bad build.

Not only is the Wand of Accuracy the worst of the three Arcane Implement Masteries beause going Dexterity/Intelligence going to make your Fortitude and Will go down the drain, but you're also missing out on the one big thing that makes paragon-tier and epic-level wizards so overpowered: Orb of Imposition. Seriously, Prismatic Spray and Legion's Hold, anyone?

IMAGE(http://www.big-metto.net/RP_Wiki/images/4/46/Legion
(Those purple triangles indicate stunned.)

Being an elf Divine Oracle and having a Battle Captain by your side are all you need to land whatever you want to use Orb of Imposition on, really.
I think you are missing the point... In fact, i know you're missing the point.

P.S. if you're going to make a ****** motivational graphic at least get the power right. Its spelled "Destructive Salutation"
I think you are missing the point... In fact, i know you're missing the point.

The build you have accomplishes its goal of getting high attack rolls at the epic levels, which ensure that your dailies hit and give you a relatively high chance of getting them back. However, I don't think that goal practical, because by the time you get to the epic levels, the only reason why your epic-level dailies are actually good is because they can be Orbed. Prismatic Spray and Legion's Hold have much less of an impact without that major save penalty from the Orb.

P.S. if you're going to make a ****** motivational graphic at least get the power right. Its spelled "Destructive Salutation"

I'm not sure about whether or not Destructive Salutation works for Orb of Imposition, because it's not actually a wizard spell. So you'll have to wait till level 25 for Prismatic Spray till you get your first stun (save ends) wizard spell.
However, I don't think that goal practical, because by the time you get to the epic levels, the only reason why your epic-level dailies are actually good is because they can be Orbed. Prismatic Spray and Legion's Hold have much less of an impact without that major save penalty from the Orb.

Orb is not nearly as strong as you think it is. Its a 1/encounter ability that hits one enemy. Yea, its great against solo monsters, but then again, you also have Confusion(effective stun) or Forcecage, Thunderclap, Force Volley, or Ice Tomb. Which are all also great against solo monsters.

And getting those back(more chance on confusion than the rest) is just as good and are just as potent on a solo since there are so few monsters out.(some are actually better, since they are not save ends effects you can use orbs of inevitable continuance to increase their duration.[which is another reason why destructive salutation is so good, you can miss every enemy there and still get 2-3 rounds of stun on every enemy in its area.])

What matters more in normal combats and especially dynamic combats is getting to use those dailies as many times as possible. The only reason you pick up those AoE save ends in the DO build is because they target will and so can be recalled to be used again in the same encounter more often than the more potent zones. That is why if you go blood mage you use the AoE zones, because they are a lot more powerful for the most part and being able to launch those high damage difficult terrain zones every encounter is just amazing.[Zones and Walls... E.G. Necrotic Web between you and their artillery, Wall of Fog in the middle of the Necrotic web. Now their artillery has to cross immobilizing difficult terrain in order to attack you, all the while you get to beat up on their melee. It gets even better if you and your friends have unfettered stride because now while you still take damage from some of the effects, you can move normally through them]

Its not about taking one enemy out of the fight. Its about taking as many out of the fight as possible and then when they all come out, taking them all out of the fight again. and then when they all come out, taking them all out of the fight again. And then doing it all again next encounter

ed: Don't forget the Epic Trickster Capstone ability which makes the DM treat any roll as a 1, no re-rolls. So if you really want to make something fail its save, that is the way to go.
I think you are missing the point... In fact, i know you're missing the point.

Rerolls are nice, but there's no need for extra daily power recovery mechanics at epic levels, seriously. Arcane Mastery is more than enough, more being a Divine Oracle that can use a Prophecy of Doom+Staff of Power+Symbol of Victory combo. And the lack of fire-and-forget measures means you'll have to go all out, burning through your resources faster than a regular wizard would. So that build is good not as a power preservation build, but as a nova build.
P.S. if you're going to make a ****** motivational graphic at least get the power right. Its spelled "Destructive Salutation"

I AM SORRY I USED A STRICTLY BETTER SPELL IN A LEVEL 30 GAME SESSION, KIND SIR.
erolls are nice, but there's no need for extra daily power recovery mechanics at epic levels, seriously. Arcane Mastery is more than enough, more being a Divine Oracle that can use a Prophecy of Doom+Staff of Power+Symbol of Victory combo. And the lack of fire-and-forget measures means you'll have to go all out, burning through your resources faster than a regular wizard would. So that build is good not as a power preservation build, but as a nova build.

That just eats up daily powers that you could be using to punishing enemies by increasing the duration of your stuns with an orb of inevitable continuance.

ed: Destructive Salutation is better than Legions Hold in at least one way. Destructive Salutation stuns on a miss. Legions hold does not.
That just eats up daily powers that you could be using to punishing enemies by increasing the duration of your stuns with an orb of inevitable continuance.

You can't use an Orb of Inevitable Continuance on a (save ends) effect. And the effect you'd achieve would be insignificant when compared to an epic level Orb of Imposition anyway. I insist, your build is great for going nova in one encounter, but if you want to stunlock or take care of more than one enemy at a time there are better ways of doing it.


ed: Destructive Salutation is better than Legions Hold in at least one way. Destructive Salutation stuns on a miss. Legions hold does not.

Legion's Hold hits the entire battlefield with the possibility of rolling twice per opponent. So yes, it was strictly better there.
Although I agree that Goumindong's build is suboptimal compared to the iconic elf orb wizard build, Goumindong is being innovative

Its somewhat of a bad policy to respond to innovative ideas with
Paraphrase: This build sucks, you shouldn't try anything that isn't as powerful as the iconic build
Orb is not nearly as strong as you think it is. Its a 1/encounter ability that hits one enemy. Yea, its great against solo monsters, but then again, you also have Confusion(effective stun) or Forcecage, Thunderclap, Force Volley, or Ice Tomb. Which are all also great against solo monsters.

Two Orbizards were the cause of a 5-man party being able to defeat a pair of Orcuses in a level 30 combat playtest I ran . Anyway, you're underestimating just how bad a save penalty the orb can impose, sirrah. Since you seem to be focused on the epic-level stuff a wizard can do, let's examine that. A level 28 elf wizard/cleric/Divine Oracle/Demigod can reasonably have 28 Wisdom (16 base + 2 elf + 8 level ups + 2 Demigod) and Spell Focus. Thus, that imposes a -11 save penalty with Orb of Imposition.

A standard monster that gets Orbed with that potency literally has no chance of making the save at all. A standard monster has only a 10% chance of saving, and a solo has a 25% chance. These chances get even lower with a Doomsayer in the party. A Taclord in the party makes sure that your stun power actually hits.
You can't use an Orb of Inevitable Continuance on a (save ends) effect. And the effect you'd achieve would be insignificant when compared to an epic level Orb of Imposition anyway. I insist, your build is great for going nova in one encounter, but if you want to stunlock or take care of more than one enemy at a time there are better ways of doing it.

You don't use it on the save ends effect. You use it on the "until the end of your next turn effect". I.E. the stun. You've got 2-3 encounter stunning powers, and 3 AoE save ends. The AoE save ends are for groups, the single targets are for ones you miss and for solos.

Against a single enemy you only need a few of these to come back, and at least one will.

Then you can Epic Trick ALL of your dailies back. Even the utility powers.



Legion's Hold hits the entire battlefield with the possibility of rolling twice per opponent. So yes, it was strictly better there.

Uhhh, no its not. Strictly better would mean its better in every way. Its not. Making legions hold roll twice means you don't get access to both legions and DS...
Two Orbizards were the cause of a 5-man party being able to defeat a pair of Orcuses in a level 30 combat playtest I ran . Anyway, you're underestimating just how bad a save penalty the orb can impose, sirrah. Since you seem to be focused on the epic-level stuff a wizard can do, let's examine that. A level 28 elf wizard/cleric/Divine Oracle/Demigod can reasonably have 28 Wisdom (16 base + 2 elf + 8 level ups + 2 Demigod) and Spell Focus. Thus, that imposes a -11 save penalty with Orb of Imposition.

A standard monster that gets Orbed with that potency literally has no chance of making the save at all. A standard monster has only a 10% chance of saving, and a solo has a 25% chance. These chances get even lower with a Doomsayer in the party. A Taclord in the party makes sure that your stun power actually hits.

Two staffizords with 8 int can stunlock three orcuses(probably more) for 12 rounds. OH NOES!

I am not underestimating how bad a penalty they can impose, its -12. Enough to get a Solo to fail 85% of the time, really impressive actually.

But getting a solo to fail 85% of the time is unnecessary because you have stunning powers coming out of your ass as a high level wizard, so long as they hit(hello re-rolls!), and you can keep them.

I mean, take a pair of any divine oracle/demigod elfs which burn through their encounter powers as fast as they can. They get 3 rolls per attack and when they hit each orcus will attack the other. You don't even need the orb, the wizards just have the two solos kill each other with encounter powers. You barely even need other players.

The question should not be "can it kill a solo?" yea, it can. All of these can, pretty darn easily too. The question is "how does it perform against groups of enemies over the course of an adventure?"
Orb is not nearly as strong as you think it is.

Oh, I missed this comment before. Sorry, but having to roll a natural 21 on a d20 to save is not what I would call normal or balanced. I (or Ads for that matter) don't have to think about whether it is powerful or not either, because we have seen enough of it in action.

The AoE save ends are for groups, the single targets are for ones you miss and for solos.

The point is, you'll have to keep using your AoE powers, becauses enemies WILL save. You are severely underestimating the ability to forget about one opponent.

Uhhh, no its not. Strictly better would mean its better in every way. Its not. Making legions hold roll twice means you don't get access to both legions and DS...

With a 99.75% plus EA chance of hitting and an extra opponent affected it was a strictly better choice there. In. That. Situation. Get it.
Oh, I missed this comment before. Sorry, but having to roll a natural 21 on a d20 to save is not what I would call normal or balanced. I (or Ads for that matter) don't have to think about whether it is powerful or not either, because we have seen enough of it in action.

I didn't say it wasn't strong. I said it wasn't as strong as you think it is.


The point is, you'll have to keep using your AoE powers, becauses enemies WILL save. You are severely underestimating the ability to forget about one opponent.

The point is, you can keep using your AoE powers. Because enemies will save whether or not you have the orb. Stunning everyone for 4 rounds > stunning 1 guy for 10 rounds and everyone for 2 rounds. You have encounter powers that you can use to keep that 1 or 2 guys continually out of the fight.

With a 99.75% plus EA chance of hitting and an extra opponent affected it was a strictly better choice there. In. That. Situation. Get it.

O.K. so now we are only talking about powers that are being used after a taclord buffs you with a fear guy in the party while being surrounded with no friendlies in sight?

Great, fat lot of good that did us.
The core of the issue:

1 re-roll/encounter
3 re-rolls/day.

Every time you use a power that attacks will(which will be all of them) you roll twice and take the best.

Every time you roll a 18,19, or 20 on one of those powers that you are rolling twice for, you do not lose the ability.

Trickster's Disposition says "If you roll an 18 or higher on the d20 when making the first attack roll for an encounter or daily attack power, that power is not expended". This means the legality of using the Divine Oracle's rolling twice when attacking Will, your Elven Accuracy reroll, and your Sly Fortune's Favor rolls for triggering Trickster's Disposition is very disputable.

Uhhh, no its not. Strictly better would mean its better in every way. Its not. Making legions hold roll twice means you don't get access to both legions and DS...

Also, why do you keep on bringing up the Blood Mage when both your main build (the wizard/cleric/Divine Oracle/Deadly Trickster) and our traditional orbizard build don't use Blood Mage?
I didn't say it wasn't strong. I said it wasn't as strong as you think it is.

I repeat that I don't need to assess the power of Orb of Imposition based on conjectures, I have seen enough encounters with and without it.

The point is, you can keep using your AoE powers.

Then you aren't using your Orbs of Inevitable Continuance.

Because enemies will save whether or not you have the orb.

False.

Stunning everyone for 4 rounds > stunning 1 guy for 10 rounds and everyone for 2 rounds. You have encounter powers that you can use to keep that 1 or 2 guys continually out of the fight.

First of all, 50 is 5 times greater than 10 (let's assume that save ends effects disappear after 5 minutes). Second, enemies have move actions too, they won't be together just so that you can hit them easily. Third, you have to hit each enemy that saves each round. Fourth, your stun encounter powers don't target Will, so you will lose them 85% of the time. And last, your statement is only true for homogeneous encounters.

O.K. so now we are only talking about powers that are being used after a taclord buffs you with a fear guy in the party while being surrounded with no friendlies in sight?

Great, fat lot of good that did us.

I don't even get what you are saying here - this has nothing to do with Prismatic Spray lockdown if you are implying that. Look, if you can't understand that this is a screenshot of actual gameplay, that's fine for me.
1. STOP ARGUING RIGHT NOW. It's getting very ridiculous.

2. Adslahnit, you have trolled this thread and by your continual arguing have discouraged actual constructive criticism of this interesting idea. If you want to talk about 'superior builds,' why bring up Orb of Imposition? Why not just talk about the Demigod epic destiny instead? Or perhaps I should burst in and bring up the Blood Mage brokenness and insist that it's completely better than this build as well?
Why not? Because that's not what this thread is about!

3. Criticizing a build as weak because it's not the strongest build there is is not only disingenuous, it's rude and stupid. As was already said, this build is an attempt to innovate, and provide a wizard build that is not the usual boring orb wizard. I personally don't like orb wizards because I don't like boosting Wis. Will you insist that all my builds are terrible for that?

Stop trolling the thread and examine the build on its own merits, or get out.
I honestly don't see why the build couldn't be an elf orb wizard... Wand just seems like an arbitrary choice here.

Basically, Epic Trickster gets a better version of Epic Resurgence as an ED feature. This power can be used for awesome, but questions about *how awesome* that is relative to other builds shouldn't just be dismissed out of hand.

(As a re-roll is not a new roll, but alters an existing roll, it should certainly still qualify, just so we can put that argument to rest).
Well if you wanted to play a Elf Orb Trickster

Str 8
Dex 16
Con 11
Int 16
Wis 16
Cha 12

At Levels 8,14,18, 28 +1 Int/Dex
At Levels 4, 24,+1 Int/Wis

Ending Up with

Str 10
Dex 22
Con 13
Int 24
Wis 20
Cha 14

Not all that great compared to the Elf Orb Archmage or Demigod

Another option for a wizard trickster is

Tiefling Wizard/Warlock/Doomsayer/Trickster

Starting

Str 8
Dex 10
Con 13
Int 16
Wis 16
Cha 16

+1 Int/Cha every stat increase
1. STOP ARGUING RIGHT NOW. It's getting very ridiculous.

Welcome to the Internet.


2. Adslahnit, you have trolled this thread and by your continual arguing have discouraged actual constructive criticism of this interesting idea.

Beyond his first post he has provided constructive criticism.

If you want to talk about 'superior builds,' why bring up Orb of Imposition?

It's suggested in the first post that this character should focus on stunlocking, but the lack of Orb of Imposition is counterproducent for what this build is good at, which is resource preservation.

Or perhaps I should burst in and bring up the Blood Mage brokenness and insist that it's completely better than this build as well?
Why not? Because that's not what this thread is about!

OP started an argument about Blood Mages, didn't he?

3. Criticizing a build as weak because it's not the strongest build there is is not only disingenuous, it's rude and stupid. As was already said, this build is an attempt to innovate, and provide a wizard build that is not the usual boring orb wizard. I personally don't like orb wizards because I don't like boosting Wis. Will you insist that all my builds are terrible for that?

I was just pointing out that, as presented, this build would work better if it focused on other things than stunlocking. But I guess that's rude and stupid, isn't it?

Stop trolling the thread and examine the build on its own merits, or get out.

People are providing suggestions and alternatives based on gameplay experience. Stop flaming a legitimate argument about whether this build is hurt at its intended function by the lack of a cornerstone ability. Or something like that ;)
Response by means of quotes:

Pick as many vs will daily and encounter powers as you can. Pump dex and int, 13 wisdom, have 12 charisma

Note that the build is based on having a low Wis score to start, so you'd have to redo the starting stats with an Orb build, which would spread through the whole tree.
I'm sorry, but this is just a very bad build.

Okay, he has a right to say that if it's legitimately worthless...his reasoning?
Not only is the Wand of Accuracy the worst of the three Arcane Implement Masteries beause going Dexterity/Intelligence going to make your Fortitude and Will go down the drain, but you're also missing out on the one big thing that makes paragon-tier and epic-level wizards so overpowered: Orb of Imposition. Seriously, Prismatic Spray and Legion's Hold, anyone?

So the build is "very bad" because it dares to choose Wand of Accuracy instead of Orb of Imposition? The nerve!
His reasoning that it is a bad build isn't based on the build's playability, but rather on how intensely powerful a completely different build is.

The build you have accomplishes its goal of getting high attack rolls at the epic levels, which ensure that your dailies hit and give you a relatively high chance of getting them back. However, I don't think that goal practical, because by the time you get to the epic levels, the only reason why your epic-level dailies are actually good is because they can be Orbed. Prismatic Spray and Legion's Hold have much less of an impact without that major save penalty from the Orb.

I'm not sure about whether or not Destructive Salutation works for Orb of Imposition, because it's not actually a wizard spell. So you'll have to wait till level 25 for Prismatic Spray till you get your first stun (save ends) wizard spell.

Here again, it's all about being an Orb wizard. He even goes so far as to insist that endgame wizards aren't even good without the Orb(seriously, if you think the Orb is the only reason Legion's hold is good, you shouldn't be playing a wizard).
The rest of the argument is back and forth about orb versus not-orb.

Now to your post:
Welcome to the Internet.

I've heard that one a few times, and it continues to fail to impress me. If you think being on the internet justifies being rude, stay on 4chan please.

Beyond his first post he has provided constructive criticism.

1. As you imply, his first post was not constructive criticism. Oddly enough, the rest of his posts are simply supporting the claims of the first one.
2.His 'constructive criticism' is rejecting the entire idea based on a different type of wizard build. There's no analysis of the particular feats involved, no suggestions as to what feats or powers might improve the concept. Instead, every post is proposing the OP abandon the entire idea and stick with the 'orthodoxy' of the Orb of Imposition.

It's suggested in the first post that this character should focus on stunlocking, but the lack of Orb of Imposition is counterproducent for what this build is good at, which is resource preservation.

Once again, it's telling the OP to abandon his idea, with no analysis of the workability of the original build.
Here's an example of real constructive criticism: If the Orb is required for stunlocking, then it might be a good idea to focus on tactics other than stunlocking(followed by a list of powers that can be useful in other ways).

The best part about this:
I was just pointing out that, as presented, this build would work better if it focused on other things than stunlocking. But I guess that's rude and stupid, isn't it?

There you go, so you did provide constructive criticism(I'll take you on your word that you were actually point that out)!
However:
My post was directed primarily at Adslahnit. Your posts, while somewhat argumentative and perpetuating Ad's foolishness, are somewhat less objectionable.

People are providing suggestions and alternatives based on gameplay experience. Stop flaming a legitimate argument about whether this build is hurt at its intended function by the lack of a cornerstone ability. Or something like that ;)

1. Constructive criticism based on the build at hand is good. Inasmuch as you did give any, that is a good thing.
2. Ridiculing or rejecting a build idea entirely based not on playability but instead based on the power of an alternative build is a bad thing. Inasmuch as this is what Adslahnit was doing, I regard him as a troll.

Now, the point about focusing on things other than stunlocking is a good idea: maybe you could suggest some of those other things? I'm afraid my wizard experience in the epic range is less than comprehensive...
@Alpha: If a druid in 3.5 didn't take Natural Spell, did you get annoyed when people told them to? This is almost the same thing for the discussion they're having (epic tier battles.) Not having the orb is a serious power drop in epic.
Trickster's Disposition says "If you roll an 18 or higher on the d20 when making the first attack roll for an encounter or daily attack power, that power is not expended". This means the legality of using the Divine Oracle's rolling twice when attacking Will, your Elven Accuracy reroll, and your Sly Fortune's Favor rolls for triggering Trickster's Disposition is very disputable.

Possibly. But its fairly clear its referring to the first monster you attack. And not the first d20 you roll. Especially because your first "attack roll" has a value equal to "what you roll after all is said and done". Technically Elven Re-roll would give me two extra d20s, but its easier to just figure one. Only the ET level 21 re-roll power doesn't since it re-rolls d20s.

Specifically. The first attack roll is equal to the number that is added after everything is all said and done. So if you are rolling twice per attack and taking the highest, or replacing that attack roll with something else. The replaced value or highest value is the one you are comparing to the ability that lets us keep the powers.


Also, why do you keep on bringing up the Blood Mage when both your main build (the wizard/cleric/Divine Oracle/Deadly Trickster) and our traditional orbizard build don't use Blood Mage?

Because the guy who came in here and said "omg this sucks" referenced Legions hold, when the real thing you have to worry about is Destructive Salutation. Its more reliable and you get it earlier.

Though the "second form" of the build does use Blood Mage, its a bit more difficult to see because if you forgo your vs will attacks, DO becomes a less advantageous position. The Blood Mage will have for two encounters/day two confusions and thunderclap, plus 1 daily zone + 1 daily AoE stun and/or 1 wall. I.E. if you forgo using the stun all powers then you want to take the terrain modification zones instead and if you do that then you might as well not take DO and instead run a wizard PP.

This of course was mentioned as a secondary way to do it, because the primary idea was maximizing what you can get out of the Deadly Trickster ED.

Note that the build is based on having a low Wis score to start, so you'd have to redo the starting stats with an Orb build, which would spread through the whole tree.

You can get it up to respectable levels, but it was mentioned as low because the orb of imposition is not central to the theme. There certainly are the feat slots to pick it up in the paragon tier, and you are certainly welcome to stop advancing dex once you reach 21. You can get up to about a modifier of 5 on your wisdom when doing this. Which is decent, but doesn't get to orb of imposition cheese levels of hurt and is not really central to the build.

Not all that great compared to the Elf Orb Archmage or Demigod

Another option for a wizard trickster is

Tiefling Wizard/Warlock/Doomsayer/Trickster

I think that it is a better choice than the Demi-god or Archmage. The trickster and Archmage will both, in the end, end up with roughly the same amount of daily powers available. But the trickster will be able to dictate a 1 to his enemies. Use epic trick in a more beneficial manner if he so chooses, and get re-rolls 3/day. Which is a terribly strong ability. Until you hit the cap-stone power, the Trickster is a LOT better.

The Demi-god only really compares once you hit the capstone as well, and it only cycles encounter powers. Its good, but a wizard is defined by his dailies and how they shape the battlefield. A ED that doesn't focus on these is losing out.

The wizard/warlock(or other way around) is also a nice option. Probably better to go warlock/wizard since the wizard part of this build is less dependent on its class features than many others.

Basically, Epic Trickster gets a better version of Epic Resurgence as an ED feature. This power can be used for awesome, but questions about *how awesome* that is relative to other builds shouldn't just be dismissed out of hand.

I agree. It would be also interesting to really formalize just how strong the orb is in relation to other abilities. And you are right about you being able to get a respectable wisdom.

edit: Whenever i refer to Epic Trickster, I mean Deadly Trickster.
@Alpha: If a druid in 3.5 didn't take Natural Spell, did you get annoyed when people told them to? This is almost the same thing for the discussion they're having (epic tier battles.) Not having the orb is a serious power drop in epic.

Not quite the best comparison. Orb of Imposition pretty much requires a higher Wis mod. That's a bigger difference than Natural Spell. If the only difference were changing implements, they would have just suggested he take Second Implement. In other words, if the choice of implement were the ONLY problem Adslahnit has with the build, he would have just suggested he take a specific feat instead of going off about how very bad the build is.

Myself, I don't like the Orb much. Why? Because I don't like putting lots of points in Wisdom. Thunderwave and the Orb are the only wizard abilities that are in any way affected by Wis. By lowering Wis, that frees up points to spend elsewhere. The problem is that it's easy to figure out what the Orb's impact on the game would be(screw over 1 monster per encounter), but far more difficult to figure out the impact of a higher Int or other ability. It's a stylistic choice. I know I'll draw flak for it, but that's my opinion.
Not quite the best comparison. Orb of Imposition pretty much requires a higher Wis mod. That's a bigger difference than Natural Spell. If the only difference were changing implements, they would have just suggested he take Second Implement. In other words, if the choice of implement were the ONLY problem Adslahnit has with the build, he would have just suggested he take a specific feat instead of going off about how very bad the build is.

Myself, I don't like the Orb much. Why? Because I don't like putting lots of points in Wisdom. Thunderwave and the Orb are the only wizard abilities that are in any way affected by Wis. By lowering Wis, that frees up points to spend elsewhere. The problem is that it's easy to figure out what the Orb's impact on the game would be(screw over 1 monster per encounter), but far more difficult to figure out the impact of a higher Int or other ability. It's a stylistic choice. I know I'll draw flak for it, but that's my opinion.

And Dex for the Wand gives you....? Really, what are you going to spend the rest of your points on.

And yes, I know it wasn't a perfect analogy, (it was an exaggeration to make a point) but it's a decent one.
I think that it is a better choice than the Demi-god or Archmage. The trickster and Archmage will both, in the end, end up with roughly the same amount of daily powers available. But the trickster will be able to dictate a 1 to his enemies. Use epic trick in a more beneficial manner if he so chooses, and get re-rolls 3/day. Which is a terribly strong ability. Until you hit the cap-stone power, the Trickster is a LOT better.

The Demi-god only really compares once you hit the capstone as well, and it only cycles encounter powers. Its good, but a wizard is defined by his dailies and how they shape the battlefield. A ED that doesn't focus on these is losing out.

I would agree that Trickster was better if it didn't have the stat requirement of 21 (Dex or Cha). The opportunity cost of Trickster for a control wizard kills the Trickster advantage as few Wizard want 21 Dex or 21 Cha

The real advantage of Demigods is the stat boosts. Wizards don't choose Demigod for Divine Miracle or the defensive abilities

The wizard/warlock(or other way around) is also a nice option. Probably better to go warlock/wizard since the wizard part of this build is less dependent on its class features than many others.

It depends on whether you want a controller or a striker that can do some contolling

The wizard primary has
Orb (-5 to -6) to one target's saving throws from wizard spells (if Prismatic spray target has to take lower of 2 saving throws)
All other targets gets -2 to saving throw (If Prismatic Spray targets take lower of 2 saving throws)
Ritual caster and free rituals
An at will attack with the psychic keyword (with psychic lock target gets -4 to next attack roll)
An close or area at will
Cantrips

Warlock Primary has
Warlock's curse
Prime Shot
Shadow Walk
More Hitpoints/healing surges
Better skills
Free Leather Armor Proficiency
Wizard spells have targets get -2 to saving throws (If Prismatic Spray targets take lower of 2 saving throws)
The real advantage of Demigods is the stat boosts. Wizards don't choose Demigod for Divine Miracle or the defensive abilities

If the real advantage of Demigods is the stat boosts, then its a trap. +1 attack/dmg, secondary ability is not nearly as powerful as 20% more daily powers/day(first level archmage ability). which can be things like walls which don't even need attack rolls.

Then, at level 26 its 40% more dailies for the archmage. Then at level 30 its 120% more dailies.

The advantage of Demigod is its capstone ability, because now your encounter powers are effectively at will. And that is pretty huge for anyone. Especially if one of those encounter powers lets you control the enemy and have him attack for you.
I've heard that one a few times, and it continues to fail to impress me. If you think being on the internet justifies being rude, stay on 4chan please.

So you think arguing is the same as being rude. Because that's what you were talking about, and what I answered to.

My post was directed primarily at Adslahnit. Your posts, while somewhat argumentative and perpetuating Ad's foolishness, are somewhat less objectionable.

Well, the way your post was written, only one point was directed at him. Being one of the people posting on this thread, I think it's normal that the rest was read as directed at me too. Right?

2. Ridiculing or rejecting a build idea entirely based not on playability but instead based on the power of an alternative build is a bad thing. Inasmuch as this is what Adslahnit was doing, I regard him as a troll.

Well, I'm telling you that he's making his claims based on his ingame experience. He might not have played one, but he has seen his two Wizard players fool around with different stunlocking and disabling strategies through the paragon and epic tiers, so he knows what he is talking about, and he does know how much of a difference an orb makes there. You might not agree with the way he wrote his post - and you shouldn't -, but his point is still there: a hit with a stun is not enough. in fact, getting a hit is more than enough trouble at epic and the proposed strategy is based around hitting reliably every turn (it can't even with Divine Oracle, and to make things worse, Will is usually a high defense). If you go through all the trouble of almost guaranteeing a hit, you might as well orb it so that you don't have to do it again. Even with only a -5 to the saves of a single enemy it's too good to pass up.

Now, the point about focusing on things other than stunlocking is a good idea: maybe you could suggest some of those other things? I'm afraid my wizard experience in the epic range is less than comprehensive...

Well, for example, this guy could be awesome if he focused on Necrotic Web and Evard's. And like I said before, going nova with Epic Trick (probably with Time Stop and walls) could possibly take care of an entire encounter once per day, given the right circumstances. I'd go Warlock instead of Cleric though, you get better defenses, an extra reroll and you'll get leader bonuses for your Will-attacking stuns anyway. Get Orb of Imposition as soon as you reach the required Charisma score, +5 or +6 Wisdom mod is more than enough is more than enough for what you want in this build, and you need to be able to push enemies around with Thunderwave.

(As a re-roll is not a new roll, but alters an existing roll, it should certainly still qualify, just so we can put that argument to rest).

Keep in mind the context here: it's directly under a reroll ability, so I wouldn't be that sure if it's "first" in the Blade Cascade sense or not.

If the real advantage of Demigods is the stat boosts, then its a trap. +1 attack/dmg, secondary ability is not nearly as powerful as 20% more daily powers/day(first level archmage ability). which can be things like walls which don't even need attack rolls.

While I also don't agree with +2 to two stats being the only reason to choose Demigod, you are yet again severely underestimating the difference between -10 to a save and -11 to a save.
While I also don't agree with +2 to two stats being the only reason to choose Demigod, you are yet again severely underestimating the difference between -10 to a save and -11 to a save.

One enemy/encounter goes from an effective "removed from the fight entirely" to a total "removed from the fight entirely". Or for a solo its the difference between saving 75 or 80%. Which isn't a big deal any way because you have so many encounter stuns available anyway.

I mean, what do you care if the one enemy saves after an average of 10 rounds or never? 10 rounds is as good as never. You will have run, or everything will be more or less dead by the time he saves. And if he does save, the archmage can dump another daily on him since he gets an extra daily/day. (another daily/day which will hit every other enemy there as well, greatly increasing your efficiency).
I just realized that the reason for the Dex was Deadly Trickster. I apologize for my misunderstanding, and realize that my analogy was inappropriate. (given that the entire build relied on going into Deadly Trickster) I still think he should pick up orb, but I can see why he went for Wand...

He could still go for a 24 Int (what he'd have), 21 Dex, 22 Wis, 13 Cha build, and pick up both Wand and Orb. You could start with 16 Int, 18 Wis/Dex, 15 other, and 11 Cha, and raise accordingly. -8 to saves is still good, just not as good. Unfortunately, you'd need to wait until epic for Spell Focus.
I just realized that the reason for the Dex was Deadly Trickster. I apologize for my misunderstanding, and realize that my analogy was inappropriate. (given that the entire build relied on going into Deadly Trickster) I still think he should pick up orb, but I can see why he went for Wand...

He could still go for a 24 Int (what he'd have), 21 Dex, 22 Wis, 13 Cha build, and pick up both Wand and Orb. You could start with 16 Int, 18 Wis/Dex, 15 other, and 11 Cha, and raise accordingly. -8 to saves is still good, just not as good. Unfortunately, you'd need to wait until epic for Spell Focus.

N.P. I just left the orb out because its not necessary to the build idea.

Also, -8 to saves at level 28+, -7 to saves at level 24+, -6 saves over 21, -4 saves under level 21.

Or

-7 to saves at level 24+, -6 saves over level 18, -5 saves over level 11, -3 saves under level 11. -2 saves on ALL save end effects over level 11.

The 22 wisdom gains 1 at the low levels. But there are few save ends effects worth using there. The 17 start wisdom build which gets spell focus faster has an advantage or equality all the way till level level 28 and will be up slightly in constitution as well.
N.P. I just left the orb out because its not necessary to the build idea.

Also, -8 to saves at level 28+, -7 to saves at level 24+, -6 saves over 21, -4 saves under level 21.

Or

-7 to saves at level 24+, -6 saves over level 18, -5 saves over level 11, -3 saves under level 11. -2 saves on ALL save end effects over level 11.

The 22 wisdom gains 1 at the low levels. But there are few save ends effects worth using there. The 17 start wisdom build which gets spell focus faster has an advantage or equality all the way till level level 28 and will be up slightly in constitution as well.

In the OP you said 13 Wis. This indicates either not having orb or only getting weak effects from it. This is what people reacted to. Orbs are powerful, and since you were talking almost entirely about epic potential this seemed like an epic build, where leaving out orb is probably a mistake. It wasn't relevant to the idea, (the concept behind the build) but it is relevant to the build.

About the changes: Yeah that'll be better for most levels, but I saw this as entirely a discussion about epic potential, (perhaps a build specifically for an epic campaign) so I built for that.
In the OP you said 13 Wis. This indicates either not having orb or only getting weak effects from it. This is what people reacted to. Orbs are powerful, and since you were talking almost entirely about epic potential this seemed like an epic build, where leaving out orb is probably a mistake. It wasn't relevant to the idea, (the concept behind the build) but it is relevant to the build.

About the changes: Yeah that'll be better for most levels, but I saw this as entirely a discussion about epic potential, (perhaps a build specifically for an epic campaign) so I built for that.

I should have clarified. At least 13 wisdom so you can multi-class into Cleric.

Epic Potential is levels 21-30, not just level 30 ;)