Hexhammer of the Gods

26 posts / 0 new
Last post
Anyway, I was playing around with the Hexhammer, and I noticed the 14 Wisdom just sitting there being unused. Not to mention, most of the time, the build is using basic melee attacks, which seemed a waste. The build still levels Str/Con exclusively.

There are three major reasons for doing this:
Rigtheous Brand as an at-will at 11th. Probably the most powerful at-wills usable all the time to add +4-8 to an ally's attack? Not only are you doing damage, but you're setting up the encounter/daily powers of your allies.

Encounters that can be used as melee attacks that instead of generating temp hit points(which don't stack), generate healing. Not to mention, allow us to swing for more than a single [W]

Dailies that do a weapon burst attack + offer regeneration.

Nifft;16006119 wrote:
Original Build (through Paragon tier):

Stumpy MacHexhammer -- Dwarf Warlock (infernal pact)
Str: 16
Con: 18 (16 +2)
Dex: 10
Int: 12
Wis: 14 (12 +2)
Cha: 8

Level 1:
At-Will: Infernal pact = Eldritch Blast + Hellish Rebuke. No choices there.
Encounter: Vampiric Embrace is nice. It's a Will attack, and gives us 5+Int temporary HP.
Daily: Armor of Agathys. 10+Int temporary HP, and for the rest of the encounter, all enemies who start adjacent to us take 1d6+Con cold damage (or 2d6+Con with curse).
Feat: Chainmail Proficiency, so we can survive enemies starting adjacent to us.

After 1st, we change the build...

Feats:
2: Initiate of the Faith - not quite as good as Toughness in some ways, but a Healing Word once per day to heal Healing Surge+1d6 damage will probably save the day once or twice.
4: Novice Power: Healing Strike - unlike Vampiric Embrace, stacks with temp hit points
6: Wintertouched at 12th
8: Acolyte Power: Divine Vigor instead of the 6th level one - you regain your 2nd wind as a minor action, which is a minor(i.e. move) to use. Not to mention you help out some other party member.
10: Adept Power: Divine Power instead of Summons of Khirad

Okay, so here instead of going into Iron Vanguard, we're going to multiclass in Cleric. And take Righteous Brand as our new at-will instead of Eldritch Blast. This is what this is all the multiclass is really about, although going into it will solidify the role of healer.

11: Hammer Rhythm
(gain Strengthen the Faithful)
12: Lasting Frost
(gain Mass Cure Light Wounds)
14: Scale
16: Plate
18: Twofold Curse
20: Plate Specialization
(Holy Wrath - close burst 3 that gives you regen and +2 power bonus to all attack rolls?)

After that, not 100% clear - Demigod boosts things, but as Nifft noted, Eternal Seeker is quite useful for Str vs AC, and this build could use some non-cleric Str vs AC specials.

Thoughts?
I'm sure it's quite effective, but what you have here is no longer a Hexhammer, it's a Hexhealer.

It will also be interesting how you reconcile infernal pact with the taking of holy orders.
Just worship a non holy god.
I'm sure it's quite effective, but what you have here is no longer a Hexhammer, it's a Hexhealer.

It will also be interesting how you reconcile infernal pact with the taking of holy orders.

It does most of the same things. It just has a little more of a Leader/Healer role.

There are no rules about how holy orders intersect with infernal pact. One of example Warlocks is 'devil touched hunter using infernal spells to eliminate evil' - that guy + cleric of Moradin seems straightforward enough.
I'm sure it's quite effective, but what you have here is no longer a Hexhammer, it's a Hexhealer.

I have to agree. I think one of the biggest points of the Hexhammer build is the Iron Vanguard's Trample the Fallen.

Still, your build looks like an interesting healer/warlock gish.
Interesting idea. Looks like it could work.
8: Acolyte Power: Divine Vigor instead of the 6th level one - you regain your 2nd wind as a minor action, which is a minor(i.e. move) to use. Not to mention you help out some other party member.

Bastion of Health is superior for a multi-classer like your dude, and lets you better fill the role of healer.

Look into the Hammer of Disruption (Dragon 365, Bazaar) if you plan on taking any Cleric Implement powers.

Cheers, -- N
Interesting idea. Looks like it could work. Bastion of Health is superior for a multi-classer like your dude, and lets you better fill the role of healer.

Look into the Hammer of Disruption (Dragon 365, Bazaar) if you plan on taking any Cleric Implement powers.

Cheers, -- N

Thanks, that's helpful - I was weighing what I wanted to do with Bastion vs Divine Vigor - I think Divine Vigor is more helpful when you're in a near TPK situation - you potentially give back a near death party member their 2nd wind and give yourself the possibility of healing up and +2 to defenses as a minor action. Until you're in that TPK situation, you probably have other options if there's a leader in your party.

If you're the primary cleric or not a Dwarf, I'd definitely go with Bastion of Health, no questions asked. It isn't a sure thing with the near TPK situation and that might make Bastion of Health the better option in case you are the party leader...
Thanks, that's helpful - I was weighing what I wanted to do with Bastion vs Divine Vigor - I think Divine Vigor is more helpful when you're in a near TPK situation - you potentially give back a near death party member their 2nd wind and give yourself the possibility of healing up and +2 to defenses as a minor action. Until you're in that TPK situation, you probably have other options if there's a leader in your party.

Thing is, 2nd Wind requires a Standard action to activate -- except for Dwarves -- and if you're near a TPK, you probably don't have actions to spare! (So if your party has two or more Dwarves, it might be viable. Otherwise, action economy dictates you grant more attacks by taking Bastion of Faith.)

Cheers, -- N
Feats:
2: Initiate of the Faith - not quite as good as Toughness in some ways, but a Healing Word once per day to heal Healing Surge+1d6+2 damage will probably save the day once or twice.

Just a minor thing, but I don't believe you get the Healing Lore WIS bonus added to Healing Word if you don't start out as a Cleric.
Thing is, 2nd Wind requires a Standard action to activate -- except for Dwarves -- and if you're near a TPK, you probably don't have actions to spare! (So if your party has two or more Dwarves, it might be viable. Otherwise, action economy dictates you grant more attacks by taking Bastion of Faith.)

Cheers, -- N

But you are a Dwarf and you have an 8 charisma ;)

The thing about Bastion of Faith is that it is only useful when the party has used up every other possible form of healing - you're granting them the ability to use a healing surge at a penalty of 1. A 50 gp healing potion is probably a better deal in most cases(mainly because who is going to sell one of them for 10 gp and it only takes a minor/move to use it, minor if they have Quickdraw) - there are situations where Bastion of Faith will be the power you want to use, but in some senses, it isn't really an encounter power for an 8 charisma cleric unless that is your only healing option in combat.

I think one of the major problems for a hexhammer is managing those hit points - they get lots of temporary hit points, but they'll take real damage from every hit usually, especially against solos. Being able to use 2nd wind aggressively as a defensive power is a real benefit for them.
Just a minor thing, but I don't believe you get the Healing Lore WIS bonus added to Healing Word if you don't start out as a Cleric.

Ah, good point.
you're granting them the ability to use a healing surge at a penalty of 1.

Why a penalty of 1?

-James
Why a penalty of 1?

-James

Bastion of Health adds your charisma modifier to the healing surge. Which in this case is negative.
But you are a Dwarf and you have an 8 charisma ;)

The thing about Bastion of Faith is that it is only useful when the party has used up every other possible form of healing - you're granting them the ability to use a healing surge at a penalty of 1.

Right, but that's only true of my Hexhammer's stat choices. You could have a 0 penalty by switching Dex and Cha.

I think one of the major problems for a hexhammer is managing those hit points - they get lots of temporary hit points, but they'll take real damage from every hit usually, especially against solos. Being able to use 2nd wind aggressively as a defensive power is a real benefit for them.

I don't really understand what you're saying here. My issue with Divine Vigor isn't the cost of the second wind -- which is Minor, for a Dwarf -- it's the Standard action cost of activating the power itself. You're losing an attack action. That's really, really huge. ONLY do it if you can give back more actions than you spend -- i.e. if there are multiple Dwarves in the party.

Bastion of Faith is yet another Minor action spend-a-surge. It's exactly the same as a Dwarf's second wind, except you can send it to a friend.

Finally, if you want something to spend "aggressively", pick the Encounter power. In my experience, players don't use Daily powers aggressively.

Cheers, -- N
Look into the Hammer of Disruption (Dragon 365, Bazaar) if you plan on taking any Cleric Implement powers.

You damned liar. It's Dragon 364, in the Ashen Covenant section.

"STOP LYING", -- N
I don't really understand what you're saying here. My issue with Divine Vigor isn't the cost of the second wind -- which is Minor, for a Dwarf -- it's the Standard action cost of activating the power itself. You're losing an attack action. That's really, really huge. ONLY do it if you can give back more actions than you spend -- i.e. if there are multiple Dwarves in the party.

Divine Vigor is a minor action and auto-works on you. When you use it, you won't lose an attack action if you properly set it up. The other members of your party might, but as I've noted, if there's a leader in the party, you want them healing your friends anyway. If there isn't a leader, Bastion of Health is the obvious choice.

Finally, if you want something to spend "aggressively", pick the Encounter power. In my experience, players don't use Daily powers aggressively.

Right - but Bastion of Health isn't a true Encounter power compared to Second Wind for a Dwarf. A Dwarf should want to use Second Wind every single combat after taking an amount greater than their healing surge - they'll bump up their defenses by 2.

Bastion of Health is the 'whoops, the leader can't keep up and I've already used Mass CLW, my own leader ability, and Healing Strike' - it isn't an encounter power of last resort - and in most cases, odds are I've taken enough damage to be a valid target. At that point, I'd like to have +2 to all my defenses
Divine Vigor is a minor action and auto-works on you. When you use it, you won't lose an attack action if you properly set it up. The other members of your party might, but as I've noted, if there's a leader in the party, you want them healing your friends anyway. If there isn't a leader, Bastion of Health is the obvious choice.

Sorry, I must have been thinking of something else. Divine Vigor is indeed a Minor action.

I'm going to stand by the assertion that DV is only a win if you have at least one other Dwarf in the party. Otherwise, it's two Minor actions for you, and a Standard for anyone else.

Right - but Bastion of Health isn't a true Encounter power compared to Second Wind for a Dwarf. A Dwarf should want to use Second Wind every single combat after taking an amount greater than their healing surge - they'll bump up their defenses by 2.

Here's the thing about Second Wind: any ally can trigger it with a DC 10 Heal check. If you are down at 0 hp (or lower), any ally can bring you back -- so long as you still have your Second Wind.

This could also be seen as an argument for Divine Vigor. Hmm. Food for though anyway.

Cheers, -- N

PS: Looking at the other Leader, the Warlord, shows me Aid The Injured. It's a level two Encounter Utility which only works on you or an adjacent ally, but it doesn't add your Charisma -- this is a win for the Hexhammer. And while Iron Vanguard is my preferred PrC paragon path, there are some strong arguments for Combat Veteran, too.
Bastion of Health adds your charisma modifier to the healing surge. Which in this case is negative.

I don't believe that you apply negative stat modifiers for such things. Am I wrong?

I know that they don't for many such things.. are they being inconsistent/drawn some kind of line?

-James
PS: Looking at the other Leader, the Warlord, shows me Aid The Injured. It's a level two Encounter Utility which only works on you or an adjacent ally, but it doesn't add your Charisma -- this is a win for the Hexhammer. And while Iron Vanguard is my preferred PrC paragon path, there are some strong arguments for Combat Veteran, too.

Warlord's problem is that I think the Fighter options are a bit better than the Warlord's one, at least given an extremely low Int/Cha scores.

I'll actually probably go Half-Elf for a variety of reasons, mostly roleplaying related, but that lets me pick up an interesting Dilettante ability for an immediate melee attack at 1st. And that of course removes the dilemma of which one I should pick - I'll go for Bastion.

Of course, then I need to decide which at-will to take as an encounter.

I don't believe that you apply negative stat modifiers for such things. Am I wrong?

They mention something about that for penalties, but not for anything else as far as I can tell - it works that way for damage, that you apply negative stat modifiers, so I don't see why it wouldn't do the same here.
I am a brand new 4e would be optimizer, so apologies in advance for any ignorant statements here...

How about going Angelic Avenger? Astral Vibrance seems like a beautiful thing for a Warlock. Pick up Astral Wave. A reasonable GM might even let you select cold as an energy type to avoid getting too far from the Hexhammer prototype. I think I'd prefer a few area effects to the push synergies path.
I am a brand new 4e would be optimizer, so apologies in advance for any ignorant statements here...

How about going Angelic Avenger? Astral Vibrance seems like a beautiful thing for a Warlock. Pick up Astral Wave. A reasonable GM might even let you select cold as an energy type to avoid getting too far from the Hexhammer prototype. I think I'd prefer a few area effects to the push synergies path.

Astral Avenger isn't a good choice for Warlocks - Warlocks have no real reason to have a decent Wisdom and that's your encounter power. As a Hexhammer, your Charisma won't great either.

When optimizing, you either want to be really good at something or you want unexpected synergies. The Hexhammer is really good at doing consistent damage, surviving combats, and pulling out Con-based Warlock stunts. My Hexhammer of the Gods isn't quite as good at the damage, but I think he survives combats a little easier, he's roughly the same at the Warlock stuff, but most importantly, when he hits, he sets up his teammates for whatever encounter/daily they want to drop on the opponent.

And that's the unexpected synergy.
Thanks!
They mention something about that for penalties, but not for anything else as far as I can tell - it works that way for damage, that you apply negative stat modifiers, so I don't see why it wouldn't do the same here.

P. 25:
A modifier is any number that adds to or subtracts from a die roll. The most commonly used modifiers are based on your ability scores. A bonus refers to positive values. If a feat adds your Dexterity modifier to damage, it won't do anything if your Dexterity modifier isn't positive. A penalty is the opposite: It's always negative.

The italicized part is the part that confuses me. Maybe it's the fact that there is no such feat that grants any sort of bonus in that way. Whenever you're using your Charisma modifier in conjunction with a power, is the modifier considered to be a bonus since you're always adding it to the damage (or possibly to-hit) roll, and therefore treated as "0" if you don't have a positive modifier?

As a DM, I personally would likely rule that if you're using a class power and have a negative modifier to the stat associated with it, you simply add "0" rather than a negative value. Yes, I'm aware that this means that Fighters who play under me can have an 8 Strength and "gain" a +1 to all their power to-hit (and possibly damage) rolls...but if you're a Fighter with 8 Strength in the first place, you need some serious help anyway.

Also, what does this mean for Brutal Scoundrel rogues (Scorpion Strike, for instance, allows you to shift "a number of squares equal to your Strength modifier after this attack, whether or not you hit.") or Warlocks (Spiteful Darts - "Infernal Pact: You push each target a number of squares equal to 3 +your Intelligence modifier."). I know. Technically these situations ought not to come up, because a Brutal Scoundrel rogue OUGHT to have a decent Strength score, and an Infernal Pact warlock OUGHT to have a decent Intelligence score. But both of those, despite not explicitly using the term "bonus" seem to at the very least imply that they are such.

In the end, honestly, it's your call. I doubt any decision you make on the matter would break the game.
Anyway, I was playing around with the Hexhammer, and I noticed the 14 Wisdom just sitting there being unused. Not to mention, most of the time, the build is using basic melee attacks, which seemed a waste. The build still levels Str/Con exclusively.

There are three major reasons for doing this:
Rigtheous Brand as an at-will at 11th. Probably the most powerful at-wills usable all the time to add +4-8 to an ally's attack? Not only are you doing damage, but you're setting up the encounter/daily powers of your allies.

Encounters that can be used as melee attacks that instead of generating temp hit points(which don't stack), generate healing. Not to mention, allow us to swing for more than a single [W]

Dailies that do a weapon burst attack + offer regeneration.



After 1st, we change the build...

Feats:
2: Initiate of the Faith - not quite as good as Toughness in some ways, but a Healing Word once per day to heal Healing Surge+1d6 damage will probably save the day once or twice.
4: Novice Power: Healing Strike - unlike Vampiric Embrace, stacks with temp hit points
6: Wintertouched at 12th
8: Acolyte Power: Divine Vigor instead of the 6th level one - you regain your 2nd wind as a minor action, which is a minor(i.e. move) to use. Not to mention you help out some other party member.
10: Adept Power: Divine Power instead of Summons of Khirad

Okay, so here instead of going into Iron Vanguard, we're going to multiclass in Cleric. And take Righteous Brand as our new at-will instead of Eldritch Blast. This is what this is all the multiclass is really about, although going into it will solidify the role of healer.

11: Hammer Rhythm
(gain Strengthen the Faithful)
12: Lasting Frost
(gain Mass Cure Light Wounds)
14: Scale
16: Plate
18: Twofold Curse
20: Plate Specialization
(Holy Wrath - close burst 3 that gives you regen and +2 power bonus to all attack rolls?)

After that, not 100% clear - Demigod boosts things, but as Nifft noted, Eternal Seeker is quite useful for Str vs AC, and this build could use some non-cleric Str vs AC specials.

Thoughts?

What weapon would you be using? Simple?
What weapon would you be using? Simple?

Warhammer - just like the regular Hexhammer for Hammer Rhythm. Mace if for some reason you don't pick Dwarf as a race.
I'm sure it's quite effective, but what you have here is no longer a Hexhammer, it's a Hexhealer.

It will also be interesting how you reconcile infernal pact with the taking of holy orders.

Fluff is 100% mutable. There is nothing that you need to reconcile. You could just simply say that your pact encompasses different powers