Okay, I'll try it your way... Paladin/Wizard

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Hello all, I consider myself a roleplayer first and a power gamer at random. I try not to optimize for the reason of hating when one character hogs all the attention due to mechanics(which happened a lot in some 3e games I played). However that's not what this thread is about. A friend of mine challenged me to take the optimizer approach to designing a character, mechanics first and concept later. So I present Tiefling Paladin/Wizard . I think I've pretty much got the 1st level down, but I don't know where to go with it from there, also obviously my 1st level design might be flawed.

Tiefling Paladin(Wizard)/Blood Mage/Eternal Seeker

Starting Stats

Str 10
Con 12
Dex 9
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 16

Equipment

Plate Armor
Quarterstaff/Staff

Feats

1 - Arcane Initiate
2 - Durable
4 - Novice Power
6 - Hellfire Blood
8 - Acolyte Power
10 - Adept Power
12 - Psychic Lock
14 - Fiery Rebuke
16 - Armor Specialization(Plate)
18 - Mettle
20 - Blood Thirst

Trained Skills

Arcana
Religion
Intimidate
Diplomacy
Heal

Powers

At Will
Bolstering Strike, Enfeebling Strike, Divine Challenge, Lay on Hands
Encounter
Thunderclap, Infernal Wrath, Divine Mettle or Divine Strength or Corellon's Grace
Fearsome Smite(Trade for Burning Hands at level 4 and back at 7)
Invigorating Smite(3)
Fire Burst(7)
Blood Pulse(PP11)
Renewing Smite(13)(Replaces Invigorating Smite)
Ice Tomb(17)(Replaces Fire Burst)
Daily
On Pain of Death
Sign of Vulnerability(5)(trade for Fireball at level 6 and back at 9)
Wall of Fire(9)
True Nemesis(15)(Replaces Sign of Vulnerability)
Righteous Inferno(19)(Replaces On Pain of Death)
Destructive Salutation(PP20)
Utility
Martyr's Blessing(2)(change to Expeditious Retreat at level 10 and back at 16)
Wrath of the Gods(6)
Turn the Tide(10)
Soul Burn(PP12)
Displacement(16)
If you're looking for a charisma-based gish, make your base class a Warlock and your second class a Paladin. Ditch the quarterstaff and pick up a much more useful weapon instead.

Check out the "Witch-Knight" thread somewhere around here for some sample builds and thorough advice.
No need to be rude, it's only going to reinforce a negative community opinion of us.

Well, first of all we actually do need more information about the character concept. What type of role do you want to fill? What kind of pop-culture archetype does your character draw from? What are the most important aspects of the character to emphasize? What's vital? A little backstory (not too much!) would also be really helpful.

If you just want to make the most powerful character possible then there's plenty of exploitive and downright broken builds around here. I don't think that is quite what you're looking for.

Looking at what you've presented so far I can tell you that Paladin and Wizard do not synergize well together. You should generally look at the two primary stats you'll be putting your level-up bonuses into and find other classes that share one or both of those primary attributes.

Paladin synergizes well with anything who's primary is wisdom, charisma, strength, and to a lesser extent constitution. Wizard synergizes well with anything that primarily needs Intelligence, or Wisdom, and to a lesser extent Dexterity.

That's not to say characters that break this general rule are necessarily bad. Fighter/Wizard, for instance, can be quite good as Wizards have many area of effect attacks that can be used to mark swarms of enemies at once.
I'm having trouble seeing what you're trying to achieve, mechanically, with this build. Can you tell us more about what you envision this character being able to do? I'm sure that would make it easier for people to give you more useful feedback.

Edit: Yeah, what Subedei said. Stupid slow connection...
What race are you?

You seem to have stats that are a bit all over the place...

Paladin/Wizard doesn't have terribly good synergy, so if you are actually going mechanics first, concept later, then you're probably going to want to rethink this...

That said, you'll probably get more help if you refrain from "powergame" in favor of things like "min-max" and preferably "optimize". (This is Character "Optimization" after all)

Optimizing does not require you to abandon character concept before you start building. However, it does help if you're flexible in exactly what he or she is going to be like.
For example, if you wanted to make a specific weapon-type fighter, that's good. Deciding that he's going to pick up Weapon Proficiency in a completely different weapon just because he likes them is not so good.

From this example, it seems like you want to build a sort of gish or fighting spellcaster. Decide where his focus is, then update the idea. I think you'll get a lot more help that way.
4E is much less capable of spotlight characters. I'd suggest a change in attitude, and perhaps not asking so condesendingly.
If you're looking for a charisma-based gish, make your base class a Warlock and your second class a Paladin. Ditch the quarterstaff and pick up a much more useful weapon instead.

I'm looking for a defender-controller combination.
Check out the "Witch-Knight" thread somewhere around here for some sample builds and thorough advice.

I've seen it, however I'm looking for a defender with controlling powers, or if I can't manage that, a defender with controller power, mechanically
What race are you?

Tiefling
You seem to have stats that are a bit all over the place...

Paladins have their stats all over the place O.O;
Paladin/Wizard doesn't have terribly good synergy, so if you are actually going mechanics first, concept later, then you're probably going to want to rethink this...

From what I can tell it's better than fighter/wizard
That said, you'll probably get more help if you refrain from "powergame" in favor of things like "min-max" and preferably "optimize". (This is Character "Optimization" after all)

Fix'd
Optimizing does not require you to abandon character concept before you start building. However, it does help if you're flexible in exactly what he or she is going to be like.

I realize this.
For example, if you wanted to make a specific weapon-type fighter, that's good. Deciding that he's going to pick up Weapon Proficiency in a completely different weapon just because he likes them is not so good.

From this example, it seems like you want to build a sort of gish or fighting spellcaster. Decide where his focus is, then update the idea. I think you'll get a lot more help that way.

Thanks for the insight, I'm trying to get a Defender/Controller vibe going and I figured that the Tiefling race with it's +2 to cha/int would be a good way to go.
4E is much less capable of spotlight characters. I'd suggest a change in attitude, and perhaps not asking so condesendingly.

Fix'd
a controller with wizard power

You mean like... a Wizard?
EVERY DAY IS HORRIBLE POST DAY ON THE D&D FORUMS. Everything makes me ANGRY (ESPECIALLY you, reader)
You mean like... a Wizard?

Haha! That sounds be, a defender with controller power.. I'll fix it.
A defender/controller, eh? Hmm, I think that's the toughest combination in PHB1, since there's only one controller, and the two defenders work best with defender/striker and defender/leader combinations. That said, the classic Fighter/Wizard is probably the way to go. Subedei's advice about using area attacks to mark multiple enemies is absolutely vital, since that's one of the few strong points about a defender/controller. You'll probably want to switch your race -- how strongly do you want to stick with Tiefling?
Try...


Str 16 (18) +4
Con 12 +1
Dex 11
Int 8
Wis 14 +2
Cha 14 (16) +3

Dragonborn Paladin/Warlock
+1 to attack if bloodied
+1 hp on healing surges
Dragon Breath (encounter) Str+2 vs Ref, for d6+1 dmg
+2 History, +2 Intimidate

27 hp, +1 fort, +1 Ref, +1 Will
AC:20 Fort:15 Ref: 13 Will: 14
Channel Divinity (divine Mettle or Strength)
Divine Challenge
Lay on Hands

Basic LongSword:+7 D8+4
Basic Javelin:+6 D6+4

Feats
1 - Pact Initiate

Trained Skills
Religion
Bluff
Intimidate
Insight
Heal

Powers
At Will - Valiant Strike, Holy Strike
Encounter - Piercing Strike, Eyebite
Daily - On Pain of Death

Equipment:
Plate, Heavy Shield, Longsword, Javelins(5)
A defender/controller, eh? Hmm, I think that's the toughest combination in PHB1, since there's only one controller, and the two defenders work best with defender/striker and defender/leader combinations. That said, the classic Fighter/Wizard is probably the way to go. Subedei's advice about using area attacks to mark multiple enemies is absolutely vital, since that's one of the few strong points about a defender/controller. You'll probably want to switch your race -- how strongly do you want to stick with Tiefling?

I'm not glued to the idea. I'll look into Wizard/Fighter after getting back to the grocery store, and maybe change to that combo depending on how much advice I have when I get back. And yeah, I figured it'd be a pretty hard role combo.
Try...

While this looks good I'm attached to the controller role, not the arcane source.
Hmmm... With a Tiefling, I'd probably go Wizard.
Hear me out...

High Int (accuracy), High Con (survivability), and Moderate Cha and Str (I'll explain)

Pick up the Toughness, Durable, and Armor (leather) feats, and make sure you're proficient with a longsword.

The Con makes you a perfect candidate for the Staff Implement.

The Str and Cha are to make sure you can qualify for Paladin (if you really want to).
The Cha also synergizes well with the Wizard of the Spiral Tower Paragon path.

With a high Int and the ability to use your longsword proficiency bonus as an implement, you'll be able to focus on being very accurate and pretty tough.

If you go with any Paladin powers (through the power swap feats), you'll probably want to make them Cha-based powers.

So, for stats (if you go this route) I'd reccomend:
Str 13
Con 14
Dex 10
Int 16
Wis 8
Cha 14

Int and Cha will get bumped from Tiefling, and there ya go!

Hope this helped!
Synergizing defender/controller seems pretty tough, but I'd recommend a Fighter/Wizard, because it is easier to focus on powers that use only Str and only Int and then just pump those two stats (with some extra points in con and maybe wis at 1st). It might be easier to just go with human, even though you lose some stat points, since you can turn Cha points that might otherwise be wasted into an extra feat. If not, then Dragonborn or Tiefling seem like the best bets, and you can probably ignore wis.
For a Tiefling Paladin/Wizard I would drop strength a few notches and focus on charisma based paladin powers. I would make wisdom my second stat and I guess constitution after that. Then I would see if it's possible to pick up some wizard powers that don't require to hit rolls (like wall spells and most utility powers).

The character would play a lot like a normal paladin with a tad bit of control powers.

For better synergy and about equal power area effects, multi-classing with cleric might be a better option, though.
4E is much less capable of spotlight characters. I'd suggest a change in attitude, and perhaps not asking so condesendingly.

Agreed with the bolded but not the rest.

1. So far I am liking the intra-group balance in 4e. I think you would be pleasantly surprised to find that even fully optimized characters in a group of 'normals' don't hog all the limelight. They have their role to fill, and unless they are using broken combos(most of which even optimizers to nix as a DM), they will in no way take away other PCs' 'moment to shine.'

2. To many of those who have replied: I am disappointed with many of the responses given to this. As I read the reactions, I kept looking back at the OP to make sure I wasn't misreading. My conclusion: I was not. The attitude is not terribly condescending, nor is it terribly poor. Seems to me it's a player who's long been on the other side of the 'role-play versus roll-play' argument(such as it is), and is trying to understand the optimizers a little better by trying it out in a system that has been reported to be less open to exploitation. So to those who reacted negatively: shame on you for assuming the worst.

3. To the original poster: these things said, I agree with the requests for a vision: optimization isn't actually as simple as mechanics first then filler later. It's vision first, mechanics second, filler third. So I thank you for your willingness to accommodate our quirks.

As for your vision, I think you're following the same line of thought I've been. Since I began my 4e explorations, I've been looking for a fighter with controller power, or a controller with fighting ability(aka a wizard gish).

I have found 2 that appeal to me:
1. Fighter multiclassed into wizard(generally with a wizard's paragon path like Blood Mage). Strictly following what you are looking for, it is a defender who picks up a small number of controller abilities. I'd prefer human as a race for this one, as the extra feat will help with the wizard feats, and the extra trained skill is never something to sneeze at.
--Pros: He's still a defender at heart, so he can take the hits and keep on ticking.
--Cons: His controller powers will always be limited in scope, and it's very difficult to balance his base attributes(there is little or no synergy between fighter and wizard)

2. Eladrin Wizard who takes the Wizard of the Spiral Tower. This is the build I've been looking at most closely.
--Pros: Built right, you can have a full wizard(with all the controller goodness that comes with it), who is very capable in frontline fighting. Further, the WotST's encounter power, Corellon's Blade, is an Int-based melee attack that has a chance to simply not be used up. In other words, with a high enough +hit to your int attacks, you can have an encounter power as an at-will for most of a battle.
Synergy isn't a worry, as you aren't multiclassing. There aren't a lot of amazing feats for a controller wizard(in my opinion), so you can fill out your feat list with melee feats.
--Cons: He's not a fighter, so he'll never be able to take damage as well(lower hp, etc.). You still need to put more into strength than a straight wizard would(for attacks of opportunity if nothing else), which reduces the effectiveness of your other attributes. He's not a tank: he won't be stopping enemies in their tracks, he won't be forcing them to attack him, and he won't be taking damage like a fighter will. Finally, until you reach the Paragon Tier, he won't be what you want. That's a big point: for 1/3 of the normal life of the character, he won't be able to do what you want him to. If you're fine playing a controller wizard up to that point, that's great. If not, Fighter/Wizard might be better for you.

3. Not one I'm interested in, but worth mentioning: Warlord and Wizard synergize well. It is my opinion, however, that this synergy doesn't do a whole lot for the wizard's viability in combat however. It's more just for the Warlord who wants to do a little bit of spellcasting.

--A point of warning: Wizard/Fighter is generally considered non-optimal for a couple reasons:
1. Wizard doesn't have the hp to stand up under the fighter's role.
2. The fighter's basic abilities are more important to him than the Wizard's are.
3. The abilities a wizard gets by multiclassing fighter aren't terribly useful to him without the fighter's ability to take a beating.
4. The opposite is not true: a hybrid character doesn't really need the wizard's class-only abilities(though not having implement mastery means he can't take Wizard of the Spiral Tower, unfortunately).

I hope that's useful.
Perhaps if we were to tweak a little ...


Str 10
Con 12
Dex 08
Wis 12
Int 16 (18)
Cha 16 (18)

Level 1 Feat: Arcane Initiate

At Will: Enfeebling Strike, Bolstering Strike
Encounter: Fearsome Smite, Thunderwave, Infernal Wrath
Daily: On Pain of Death

And then take it from there. Spell focus is an easy grab for you, though of limited utility unless you multiclass in lieu of a paragon path, and then go for Seeker for your epic destiny. Ultimately, I think you might get better results with warlock, between the similar ability scores, pact blade + shield option, and an actual benefit from intelligence, but this is about the best way to do a Paladin/wizard, if you insist. Your divine challenge damage is high, so you punish people for ignoring you, and you can control semi effectively with thunderwave. (I might recommend the other AoE at will though, both because it benefits from range, and because the imagery of dropping it at your feet and walking away unburned (thanks to fire resistance) is way nifty. You won't have much of a push effect from Thunderwave anyway, if you want any chance at all to hit with your attack powers.
Tiefling is the way to go. I'd ditch Str and stick with an Int/Cha build. You're stat bonuses are there, and the paladin has a few controlerish charisma based powers. Also you can go through the whole game without having to pick up a strength based power for the paladin.

Focus on fire spells and feats that beef them (Hellfire blood FTW) If you can find a few points to dump into dex you could qualify for Astral fire (or wait for the +1 to all bump to get you there) which would help some pali powers and wizard powers.

Sense it sounds like your bypassing your leaderish leanings from the paladin you could dump wis to save stat points for elsewhere.

You may be able to pull off the Spiral Tower Paragon path to keep up your gish theme, and would let you go sword and shield with no switchouts for impliments. Battle mage could be nice too though the Dex opportunity attack would probably be wasted.

Getting quickdraw would be a good idea so you can switch from weapon to implement quickly and going shield would probably be the way to go because a lot of your abilities will be based off static dice rather than weapons.

*Does anyone know if staff/sheild can stack, or do you have to wield a staff two handed for the +1 bonus?
Alpha--

A straight WotST can be an effective gish, but it's really more of a controller/striker IMO than a controller/defender. You need the ability to tie up enemies close to you to fulfill the defender role.

I agree that Fighter/Wizard > Wizard/Fighter.

Also, the harsher responses were based on use of a couple words that the OP has graciously edited and replaced. I agree that some were excessively unfriendly, but don't throw too many stones their way

Would one of the Giths not be better for a Fighter/Wizard combo? Or even an Eladrin? I'm just not seeing Tiefling being the best for this.
Staff/Shield can stack. It was clarified in Treantmonk's wizard thread pg 17 or so.

@AlphatheGreat: while I agree with your sentiments regarding the OP's tone (even in the original version), to the defense of some here, the original post was altered slightly...

back on topic: if you go Spiral Tower, you don't have to switch between sword and implement.
if you go Spiral Tower, you don't have to switch between sword and implement.

This is only true if you're a wizard first, and fighter second. Otherwise you don't have an implement you've specialized in, and that paragon path feature does nothing. Which is a darn shame, considering how much better (in most other ways) the Fighter/Wizard is than the Wizard/Fighter.
Just to clarify, I was calling the first responder rude, not the OP. I just really hate to see responses in the vein of "Your build is awful, get out of our forums!", I don't think think driving people away is terribly healthy for our community, even if someone is rude (which Anthro really wasn't). For some reason I can't find that first response any more, I suppose it was deleted.

Back on topic: I think the most important considerations for a gish are actually not ability score considerations; they are purely tactical ones.

You want controller powers, so when are you going to use those powers and why? These questions should be at the heart of your considerations.

As a Defender, you want to lock enemies down next to you so you can continue to hurt them and prevent them from attacking anyone else. Using ranged powers with multiple enemies adjacent to you means multiple opportunity attacks, it also means it'll be difficult to catch the whole group in an area spell as they'll likely be adjacent to multiple sides of you. Thus area attacks are most useful as openers for you. You cast them to soften enemies up before charging in to the middle of them to lock them down. This usually means you'll only need one or two area attacks, which is great because you're only going to have one or two. Not only do you get to mark a lot of enemies, opening with this tactic is more useful than it may originally seem when you consider what the rest of your team can do, and how you're going to begin fights as a group. I'm going to get around to making a focused group tactics thread eventually, I'll talk more on this then.

The Wizard clearly has more than just ranged area tactics though, and for your purposes these may be better (though not necessarily). No opportunity attacks, and burst attacks will be great for hitting enemies on all sides of you that blasts and ranged bursts cannot. These things you really are going to want as many as you can get of, as they do things a fighter normally cannot do, and can be used repeatedly in melee.

Of course there's also persistent effects to consider such as walls and conjurations. Bigby's collection of magical hands, for instance. If you've got a good Fortitude and Reflex defense they're going to be stronger, and you can continue to use the effects for multiple rounds, which is great for you as you've got to squeeze all the use you can out of your limited selection of Wizard spells. Walls are nice too because they synergize well with your ability to hold enemies in place, and if you decide to go the less-intelligence rout (I wouldn't actually recommend it) they'll remain quite effective despite. Basically anything with "sustain: minor" or "sustain: move" is especially useful to you as it allows you to continue doing wizardy things for multiple rounds while you do your normal Fighter stuff. You really don't need to move as much as other characters, so you don't mind using your move and minor actions as much.
I think a tiefling paladin(wizard) could be doable. Int = Cha >> Con > Wis > Str & Dex.
Ok, I haven't tried to follow the thrust of the discussion, but I thought I'd point out that your initial build violates the cardinal rule of building a paladin - Thou Shalt Not Mix the Powers of Charisma with the Powers of Strength.

A Paladin's attribute ordering is Cha or Str, then Wis, and then as necessary for feats. Cha paladins are notably weaker than Str paladins because they still need a weapon for many of their powers, and won't have the attributes to take advantage of many of the relevant feats.

Adding wizard only complicates this, because now you also need intelligence. The amount of complication really depends on how much wizard you want.

We'll assume the worst case scenario - paragon full multiclass (ew). This means we'll have an equal number of wizard powers as paladin powers, with the possible exceptions of at-wills. As we're starting Paladin, it also means no implement mastery.

Charisma Based
Tiefling Paladin/Wizard/Demigod
Initial Attributes:
Str 12 Con 10 Dex 8 Int 18 Wis 12 Cha 18

Yes, its pretty nasty, but what else are we going to do? Honestly, the build makes me cry, but I doubt you can improve on it.

Also note that it requires an Implement, a Weapon, and a Holy Symbol. Ew.

Lets contemplate something a little more rational. Unfortunately, finding a race which pumps both Str and Int isn't possible, so...

Strength Based
Paladin of Moraddin/Wizard/Demigod
Pre-Race Initial Attributes:
Str 16 Con 10 Dex 12 Int 16 Wis 12 Cha 8

Viable Races:
Longtooth Shifter (preferred) +2 strength +2 wisdom

Yeah, that's it, because we're going to need the wisdom boost, much as I'd prefer human for the good feats and +1 to all defenses. Fortunately we're trained in all armors, so at least our AC will be decent.

Pump str/int every level.

Build
Weapon: Glaive
Implement: Whatever, probably wand, unless your DM is *really generous* and lets you count your glaive as a staff for implement
Armor: Platemail better than hide + int mod for now, and on average will remain so

Skills: Religion, History, Insight, Endurance, (Arcane)

By level:
Show
1st: Paladin features, AWs:holy strike, valiant strike, E:Piercing Smite, D:Paladin's Judgement, Arcane Initiate (E:thunderwave)
2nd: Weapon Focus (Glaive), U:sacred circle
3rd: E:staggering smite
4th: Novice Power (colorspray, replaces E3)
5th: D:martyr's retribution
6th: Moradin's Resolve, U:one heart, one mind
7th: E:thunder smite
8th: Acolyte Power (shield, replaces U6)
9th: D:whatever (all use charisma - ew)
10th: Adept Power (wall of fire, replaces D9), U:turn the tide
11th: Polearm Gamble, E:fire shroud, AW:thunderwave (replace valiant strike), retrain Arcane Initiate E power to scorching burst
12th: Blade Opportunist, U:shield, retrain U10-> blur (U6->OHOM)
13th: E:thunderlance (replaces E11), retrain F:WF(Glaive)->Resounding Thunder
14th: Combat Reflexes?
15th: D:bloodied retribution (replaces D1)
16th: F, retrain Acolyte Power -> U16:stoneskin, (U10-> turn the tide)
17th: E:terrifying smite (replaces E1)
18th: F
19th: D: crusader's boon (replaces D5)
20th: F, D:wall of ice or bigby's grasping hands
etc...


Build really gets going in paragon with polearm gamble - effectively penalize enemies from coming to get you while acting as a controller as necessary (and quite possibly pushing them away again).

Note that as you have no paragon powers, you can retrain the wizard powers you gain this way. (and we take advantage of that and should continue to do so).

Honestly, the above is *almost* playable. Its also pretty weird. And one may wonder why you just didn't go Wizard/WotST by the time you've hit paragon.

Variation: go with 12 Con so you can get solid sound, but this makes your OA attacks worse, if nothing else (No blade opportunist).

Obviously a less fully multiclassed Paladin only needs a 13 intelligence and can afford a higher wisdom. This will make the Arcane Initiate feat worthless (inability to hit), but you might find swapping for a utility power or daily power that doesn't require an attack roll worthwhile (Wall of Fire for instance).
To Subedei
No need to be rude, it's only going to reinforce a negative community opinion of us.

Well, first of all we actually do need more information about the character concept. What type of role do you want to fill? What kind of pop-culture archetype does your character draw from? What are the most important aspects of the character to emphasize? What's vital? A little backstory (not too much!) would also be really helpful.

Defender/Controller, I like the race/class/class combination I have now, but otherwise their is not concept as of yet.
If you just want to make the most powerful character possible then there's plenty of exploitive and downright broken builds around here. I don't think that is quite what you're looking for.

Not quite, I'm looking for something strong and playable that fills the defender roll and can sub for controller for a short time.
Looking at what you've presented so far I can tell you that Paladin and Wizard do not synergize well together. You should generally look at the two primary stats you'll be putting your level-up bonuses into and find other classes that share one or both of those primary attributes.

I know this, but defenders and controllers don't synergize well either, I picked the Tiefling race so that the stat bonus could tie the two together.
Paladin synergizes well with anything who's primary is wisdom, charisma, strength, and to a lesser extent constitution. Wizard synergizes well with anything that primarily needs Intelligence, or Wisdom, and to a lesser extent Dexterity.

That's not to say characters that break this general rule are necessarily bad. Fighter/Wizard, for instance, can be quite good as Wizards have many area of effect attacks that can be used to mark swarms of enemies at once.

I looked at this, after some people suggested it, but I find that the race/class/class combo I'm using right now works better.
For some reason I can't find that first response any more, I suppose it was deleted.

I requested it be deleted for being non-contructive and off-topic. So it might help if you edit your post, sorry.
Back on topic: I think the most important considerations for a gish are actually not ability score considerations; they are purely tactical ones.

You want controller powers, so when are you going to use those powers and why? These questions should be at the heart of your considerations.

Noted, I didn't give a lot of thought to this, mostly I want a control Wizard mixed with a Charisma based Paladin.
As a Defender, you want to lock enemies down next to you so you can continue to hurt them and prevent them from attacking anyone else. Using ranged powers with multiple enemies adjacent to you means multiple opportunity attacks, it also means it'll be difficult to catch the whole group in an area spell as they'll likely be adjacent to multiple sides of you. Thus area attacks are most useful as openers for you. You cast them to soften enemies up before charging in to the middle of them to lock them down. This usually means you'll only need one or two area attacks, which is great because you're only going to have one or two. Not only do you get to mark a lot of enemies, opening with this tactic is more useful than it may originally seem when you consider what the rest of your team can do, and how you're going to begin fights as a group. I'm going to get around to making a focused group tactics thread eventually, I'll talk more on this then.

Thanks for the tip, that was kind of one the lines of what I was thinking. Lock enemies down, rush in and keep them down.
The Wizard clearly has more than just ranged area tactics though, and for your purposes these may be better (though not necessarily). No opportunity attacks, and burst attacks will be great for hitting enemies on all sides of you that blasts and ranged bursts cannot. These things you really are going to want as many as you can get of, as they do things a fighter normally cannot do, and can be used repeatedly in melee.

Of course there's also persistent effects to consider such as walls and conjurations. Bigby's collection of magical hands, for instance. If you've got a good Fortitude and Reflex defense they're going to be stronger, and you can continue to use the effects for multiple rounds, which is great for you as you've got to squeeze all the use you can out of your limited selection of Wizard spells. Walls are nice too because they synergize well with your ability to hold enemies in place, and if you decide to go the less-intelligence rout (I wouldn't actually recommend it) they'll remain quite effective despite. Basically anything with "sustain: minor" or "sustain: move" is especially useful to you as it allows you to continue doing wizardy things for multiple rounds while you do your normal Fighter stuff. You really don't need to move as much as other characters, so you don't mind using your move and minor actions as much.

Thanks for all the tip, I've even began to imagine some Paladin/Wizard tactical combination that would be cruel
To Aramil_Delanur
Hmmm... With a Tiefling, I'd probably go Wizard.
Hear me out...

High Int (accuracy), High Con (survivability), and Moderate Cha and Str (I'll explain)

Pick up the Toughness, Durable, and Armor (leather) feats, and make sure you're proficient with a longsword.

The Con makes you a perfect candidate for the Staff Implement.

The Str and Cha are to make sure you can qualify for Paladin (if you really want to).
The Cha also synergizes well with the Wizard of the Spiral Tower Paragon path.

With a high Int and the ability to use your longsword proficiency bonus as an implement, you'll be able to focus on being very accurate and pretty tough.

If you go with any Paladin powers (through the power swap feats), you'll probably want to make them Cha-based powers.

So, for stats (if you go this route) I'd reccomend:
Str 13
Con 14
Dex 10
Int 16
Wis 8
Cha 14

Int and Cha will get bumped from Tiefling, and there ya go!

Hope this helped!

All interesting, I'll consider going Wizard primary instead of Paladin
To ravenight
Synergizing defender/controller seems pretty tough, but I'd recommend a Fighter/Wizard, because it is easier to focus on powers that use only Str and only Int and then just pump those two stats (with some extra points in con and maybe wis at 1st). It might be easier to just go with human, even though you lose some stat points, since you can turn Cha points that might otherwise be wasted into an extra feat. If not, then Dragonborn or Tiefling seem like the best bets, and you can probably ignore wis.

Hmm... I'm thanks for the type, but I'm gonna go with Paladin/Wizard and stick with Cha/Int focus for stats, with wisdom on the low key
To D.A.Dervish
For a Tiefling Paladin/Wizard I would drop strength a few notches and focus on charisma based paladin powers. I would make wisdom my second stat and I guess constitution after that. Then I would see if it's possible to pick up some wizard powers that don't require to hit rolls (like wall spells and most utility powers).

The character would play a lot like a normal paladin with a tad bit of control powers.

For better synergy and about equal power area effects, multi-classing with cleric might be a better option, though.

Hadn't thought of that! I'll take a look at non-int dependent Wizard powers
To AlphatheGreat
Agreed with the bolded but not the rest.

1. So far I am liking the intra-group balance in 4e. I think you would be pleasantly surprised to find that even fully optimized characters in a group of 'normals' don't hog all the limelight. They have their role to fill, and unless they are using broken combos(most of which even optimizers to nix as a DM), they will in no way take away other PCs' 'moment to shine.'

If this is true it could certainly get me a lot more into optimizing in the future, but we must see how 4e unfolds. ^-^
3. To the original poster: these things said, I agree with the requests for a vision: optimization isn't actually as simple as mechanics first then filler later. It's vision first, mechanics second, filler third. So I thank you for your willingness to accommodate our quirks.

I see, I'm looking for something like you described in the rest of your post, but using the Paladin, I've fiddled around absently with some "Champion of Corellon"
Tell me if I missed your post because the response system was acting screwy for me.

Clarifications wanted:
Does the Wizard of the Spiral Tower PP work if you're not a primary class wizard?
Is it beneficial to drop plate armor in favor of hide?
Can you, or can you not use a staff and shield?
That's horrible. The way the WotST PP is worded only a wizard can benefit from using a sword as an impliment (sense they are the only ones who specialize in an implement). I would let someone at least use the sword bonus as an impliment bonus, but I digress.

I wouldn't multiclass strait wizard. You loose out on several passive abilities that could be useful. Bloodmage could be a fun way to go. You damage enemies within 10 squares when you use second wind and do extra damage if they're under an effect you caused. (divine challenge anyone?) Blood pulse is always great, especially if you big up some big shift or push abilities.

Here about what I'm thinking, basically scrollreader's build with reasons and a few suggestions for leveling

Str 8
Con 10
Dex 13 (for quickdraw)
Wis 11
Int 16 (18)
Cha 16 (18)

Level 1 Feat: Arcane Initiate

At Will: Enfeebling Strike, Bolstering Strike (Both Cha Based
Encounter: Fearsome Smite (has fear keyword which goes great with hellfire blood),
Thunderwave or Scorching Burst (Thunderwave has knockback and can be used in melee, but Scorching Burst is Fire based)
Infernal Wrath
Daily: On Pain of Death (cha vs. will is good and rare, extra damage is nice)

Plate, Longsword, and Shield

Feats to pick up

Quickdraw (so that your not stuck casting wizard spells with your long sword out)
Hellfire blood (+1 attack rolls are hard to come by, focus on fear and fire powers to synergize)
Power Swap Feats
Toughness (you'll need to make up for a low con)
Durable

Unfortunantly your going to be giving up three feats to get extra wizard powers but you can at least put them to good use.

Utility I'd get spells like shield, blur, to gain defensive bonuses
Encounter Fire Shroud could be sexy after using Scorching Burst to attract attention, later on keep going fire spells. Your resistance means you can drop them on yourself and take little damage.
Daily Wall of fire could be sexy, blocking enemies in flames and the only way out is through you.
@FrozenChrono: I acknowledged Paragon Multi was the worst case scenario. I also though it interesting because it gave you enough wizard powers to actually care about intelligence.

@AnthroDM
Does the Wizard of the Spiral Tower PP work if you're not a primary class wizard?

No. Or I should say, everything works but Corellon's Implement - but that's the part you really care about. Your DM may decide otherwise. (Offer to burn a feat on Second Implement, which you don't technically qualify for, but it might make the DM more willing to make some modifications because you're willing to pay a cost for what you want).

Is it beneficial to drop plate armor in favor of hide?

Sometimes. High Int + Hide = Platemail at high levels and some places inbetween, but as a multiclass character you are not going to have that kind of int. Epic 5 elderhide + 9 int = 14 = godplate. 9 int mod requires starting with an 18 and going Demigod, or starting with a 20 int.

At low levels 20 Int + Hide (3) = platemail. With less than 20 you'll find yourself catching up (at 8th with 18 starting) and then platemail will outdistance you again when it gets masterworked armor - you might briefly surpass platemail with 18 starting int + Hide at 14th level.

Can you, or can you not use a staff and shield?

As long as you are using the staff as an implement you can. Staves require 2 hands to wield *as a weapon*, but seem to only require one hand to wield as an implement.
Starting Stats

Str 16
Con 11
Dex 10
Int 14
Wis 13
Cha 16

First off, what Squirreloid said - don't try to do both Paladin stats.
Second, also what Squirreloid said, consider WoST paragon.

However, I would forgo the potential wisdom synergies in favor of Con as your third stat.

As far as defenders go, I think fighters are much better defenders. They can mark multiple targets. With Divine Challenge you can only do one at a time until you are able to spam an area attack every turn (eventually you would, but you'd still lose your mark for any of your targets not in the AoE).

But once you have multiple AoEs you could improve the Paladin, as it would allow you to keep multiple marks. So that IS interesting.


If you go charisma based, I think you would be almost completely a Paladin until WoST at paragon. At that point you'd have two implements - your sword and a holy symbol. Too bad Holy Avengers are 25+. (geez!)
Another problem is that if you go Cha and use strength as a dump stat, you'll be very challenged with your weight allowance. Plate is 50 lbs and weight allow is Strx10 - an 80 weight limit is restrictive to say the least.

Besides decreasing the number of implements, high strength has the benefit of having more effective opportunity attacks. As a defender, you should expect to get them (though not as many as the fighter) so you should be prepared to benefit from them.

I'd actually suggest Dragonborn rather than Shifter. You have the bonus to Strength, better healing surges than normal and your breath weapon is one more AoE for keeping multiple marks.

So maybe:
str 16 +2 =18
con 13
Dx 10
Int 16
Wis 11
Cha 8+2 =10

Consider In 17, con 11,wis 10
Consider Str 15+2=17, Con 14, Int 16
In that case, what the suggested PP for this combination, and what action does it take to equip and unequip a shield?

PS. I'm slowly updating the OP
Unfortunantly it's a standard action to equip your shield.
Lame =/ looks like I'll be going with the staff, although, if I'm ditching the shield anyway, wouldn't I get better use out of Wand in one hand Flail in the other?
No. Or I should say, everything works but Corellon's Implement - but that's the part you really care about. Your DM may decide otherwise. (Offer to burn a feat on Second Implement, which you don't technically qualify for, but it might make the DM more willing to make some modifications because you're willing to pay a cost for what you want).

This.
By the rules, only a Wizard can go into the Wizard of the Spiral Tower paragon path. However, as Squirrelloid suggests you can make a strong case to your individual DM to allow it. I'd personally save the Second Implement feat as a card up your sleeve, and only bring it out if your DM seems reluctant. If allowed, WotST becomes a fantastic way to avoid some of the problems caused by the low synergy between Paladin and Wizard. It also allows you to use a shield without having to worry about your Wizard implement.
Added power for Heroic tier.

Hmm... I find an interesting...

Alright, other than WotST what are my options?

PS. Holy Avenger is a Paladin/Wizard/WotST's best friend. o.o If only it were lower level.
So the powers, and the PP......?
So given that your going for a defender that can do a little bit of controlling, why not go Paladin / Cleric?

Clerics have spells that have good control effects, and your stats synergize a lot better.

Start with a Dragonborne Paladin. Pick Cause Fear as your encounter power, Blade barrier as your Daily, and Astral Defenders as your Utility. 3 good controller spells right there. You get Dragon's Breath, which lets you deal with minions.

You can take Radiant Servant as you paragon path to give you some more oomph damage wise.

A good starting array would be:

STR: 15 DEX: 14 CON: 10 WIS: 16 CHA: 16 INT: 8

You can take the Heavey Blade feats. You'll need them, as you'll be pumping Wisdom and Charisma. Your strength will be good enough for OA before paragon level, but after that you'll need to rely on your at wills.


The high Wisdom adds to your Paladin powers, and the High Charisma adds to your cleric powers.

Your saves are also decent.
Changed the last post a bit. Originally I had Half Elf as a race, but you need Dragonborne to get access to the Heavy Blade feats.
At this point the character concept has evolved enough that I'm not accepting any different class/race combination.

Furthermore Firewall > Blade Barrier.
This.
By the rules, only a Wizard can go into the Wizard of the Spiral Tower paragon path. However, as Squirrelloid suggests you can make a strong case to your individual DM to allow it. I'd personally save the Second Implement feat as a card up your sleeve, and only bring it out if your DM seems reluctant. If allowed, WotST becomes a fantastic way to avoid some of the problems caused by the low synergy between Paladin and Wizard. It also allows you to use a shield without having to worry about your Wizard implement.

The Arcane Initiate feat qualifies you for Wizard Paragon Paths, including WoST.
So go for it. Your sword becomes your Wizard implement (your choice of if it has the powers of wand, orb or staff.)

-If you plan on using your wizard spells for combat, I'd suggest getting up to 16 in intelligence. Bonuses to hit are hard to come by. You want to be able to hit! Plus, you'll be all the better with your skills (What is your roleplaying concept for this, anyway? A learned, scholarly paladin? Or paladin for Corellon, God of Magic, which also fits perfect with WoST?)

-You do have 10 levels before you become PP, during which you have to have a sword and an implement. But light shield says you can hold an item in your hand - whatever wizard implement you use before you get to WoST. You can't use it to attack from that hand, but it would just be a minor action to switch.

-minor tweak suggestion. Leave Dex at 8. Put that 1 more point into strength - more weight to carry and after paragon you'll actually have a bonus for opportunity attacks. You're going to be in plate anyway, and without any benefit from dex.

-since you're taking Hellfire Blood, you might as well get more Fire powers.

Edit: forget what I said about multiple marks. I just re-read Divine Challenge, and it won't let you. Oops.
Your sword becomes your Wizard implement (your choice of if it has the powers of wand, orb or staff.)

By RAW, this is not true. You need to specialize in an implement to gain this feature. Non-Wizards can't specialize in an implement, hence you don't get this benefit.
Alright, other than WotST what are my options?

Blood Mage is probably your best bet. You get a good encounter power and a good daily power. As a Paladin, you have good hit points, so Bolstering Blood doesn't hurt so bad.

Really probibly your only option if you want to go the Defender / Controller hybrid route. It's the only Wizard paragon path that gives you two really good control spells.

WotSP would also work, but you don't gain one of the path's major benefits. Plus the powers of Blood Mage are better imho.