Human Fighter / Warpriest / Demigod

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I'm not listing gear or most exploits as they should be fairly trivial to pick up during leveling, but feel to suggest particularly good stuff, especially if it affects other choices I've made. Hopefully I'll get to exploits sometime soon. Thanks in advance for any insight:

Human Fighter / WARpriest (Cleric Paragon) / Demigod
Longsword / Heavy Shield

Str: 18 + 8 = 26 + 2 (Demigod) = 28
Dex: 14 + 3 = 17 (add at level 18)
Con: 13 + 3 = 16 (add at level 28)
Int: 10 + 2 = 12
Wis: 14 + 6 = 20 + 2 (Demigod) = 22
Cha: 8 + 2 = 10

Skills: Athletics(str), Endurance(con), Heal(wis), Intimidate(cha)
-- From feats: Religion(int)

At-will Powers: Cleave, Tide of Iron, Sure Strike

Feats:
H Toughness (+5 hp / tier) 201
1 Initiate of the Faith (Cleric Multi, Religion and HW/day) 208
2 Durable (+2 healing surges) 194
4 Shield Push (combat challenge hit -> push target 1 square) 200
6 Distracting Shield (Combat Challenge hit -> -2 attack until my turn) 194
8 Acolyte Power (Grab Cure Serious Wounds - Cleric Utility) 194
10 Blade Opportunist (+2 to OAs) 194

11 Action Recovery (AP for extra action = saving throws vs all) 202
12 Armor Specialization (Scale) (+1 Feat to AC, ignore -1 speed penalty) 202
14 Uncanny Dodge (Combat Adv. vs. you doesn't grant +2 attack) 206
16 Heavy Blade Opportunity (Can use weapon at-wills with OAs) 203
18 Lightning Reflexes (+2 feat bonus to Reflex) 204
20 Great Fortitude (+2 feat bonus to Fortitude) 203

21 Heavy Blade Mastery (Crit on 19 or 20) 207
21 ..RETRAIN: LOSE Great Fortitude
21 Epic Resurgence (1st crit/enc regain an enc power) 206
22 Blind-Fight (ignore concealment/invis from adj enemy, can OA) 206
24 Great Fortitude (+2 feat bonus to Fortitude) 203
26 Human Perseverance (+1 bonus to Saving Throws) 198
28 Triumphant Attack (On crit, foe gets -2 attack/defenses, save ends) 207
30 Iron will (+2 feat bonus to will, again) 203


Final Defenses (shield, +6 cloak/armor): AC 48, Fort 45, Ref 39, Will 40
Final Attack Bonus (str, +6 longsword): Reg 34, OA 40
Final Attack Bonus (Wis, +6 Holy Symbol): 27
I'm liking it! :D

Something to chew on that I noticed.... if you want to add a little extra to your OA's, you could even pickup combat reflexes. It adds +1 attack to ANY OA's, and is an untyped bonus, so that means it should stack with Blade Opportunist.
Blade Opportunist
Triumphant Attack

both these are really not needed you have enough attack bonus with your 20 wisdom and triumphant attack just seems to not happen enough for me to like it, i think keeping human perserverance is key bonus to human and i would like fleet footed in the build for 7 base speed 8 with an item. i would also like to figure out how to maybe get bastard sword in there. but as for weapon its a holy avenger

i dont know about the ritual casting bit but eh.

btw you are +34 to hit +15 1/2 lvl +1 fighter +9 str +3 prof +6 weapon
wis attack is +28 +15 1/2 lvl + 7 wis +6 wep
Blade Opportunist
Triumphant Attack

both these are really not needed you have enough attack bonus with your 20 wisdom and triumphant attack just seems to not happen enough for me to like it, i think keeping human perserverance is key bonus to human and i would like fleet footed in the build for 7 base speed 8 with an item. i would also like to figure out how to maybe get bastard sword in there. but as for weapon its a holy avenger

i dont know about the ritual casting bit but eh.

btw you are +34 to hit +15 1/2 lvl +1 fighter +9 str +3 prof +6 weapon
wis attack is +28 +15 1/2 lvl + 7 wis +6 wep

Ritual casting probably should be dropped for Human Perserverence, I agree. I mostly put Ritual Casting in there to demonstrate versatility.

Triumphant attack will go off 1/10 of the time I make a melee attack, including OA's, Fighter's Challenge and Close bursts. If I drop it, I may as well drop Heavy Blade Mastery as well. Holy Avenger's aren't that amazing for us since we only have 2 attacks with the radiant keyword.

I had Fleet Footed in there originally, and if I do drop those, it goes back in. Additionally in that case, I'd add Iron Will as I just don't see anything better.

Now, if I actually like Blade Opportunist a lot. If it turns out to be too high to bother with at high levels, the first thing I'd do is take Skill Training earlier and switch from Demigod to Deadly Trickster. That ends up being -2 to OA's, but in my opinion, the abilities come out a little better. In that case, the extra crits from Heavy Blade Mastery will really come in handy. Also in that case, Epic Resurgence > Triumphant Attack.

As for the Attack bonus, you are correct. For the wisdom one though, my +wis bonus is only 6, not 7.

As for Bastard sword, I'm just not sold. It's only +1 average damage per hit per [w]. Even with your 7[w] daily, that's only +7 damage.

Thanks for the insight though, you've made some great points.
I'm liking it! :D

Something to chew on that I noticed.... if you want to add a little extra to your OA's, you could even pickup combat reflexes. It adds +1 attack to ANY OA's, and is an untyped bonus, so that means it should stack with Blade Opportunist.

It does. It's just a very small bonus. I decided to toss Ritual Casting in order to keep Human Perseverance. Since I wasn't dropping HP until Paragon, I decided to take Combat Reflexes as a place-holder. Once your Wis shoots up though, the +1 isn't really worth the feat. Really, once you hit Paragon, it's not worth the feat simply because there's better stuff.
ok then I would say drop ritual casting for Human perseverance and drop blade opertunist for fleet footed, I can agree on bastard sword so you can keep triiumpant attack.
you really dont need blade opertunist with +6 wis to your AO ontop of +34 to hit thats +40 to hit. I think the extra speed will probly be more worth it. No impoved init is something I don't like as much either... this is a very feat intensive build so human is definatly the right way to go.
Now, if I actually like Blade Opportunist a lot. If it turns out to be too high to bother with at high levels, the first thing I'd do is take Skill Training earlier and switch from Demigod to Deadly Trickster. That ends up being -2 to OA's, but in my opinion, the abilities come out a little better. In that case, the extra crits from Heavy Blade Mastery will really come in handy. Also in that case, Epic Resurgence > Triumphant Attack.

You'll also have to crank up your Dex or Cha to 21 to get into Deadly Trickster. I don't think this build really has the free stat points to make that hurdle. Demigod is probably the better choice in these circumstances.
I know there wasn't as much noise about your build as you might have hoped C_A, but I think it's because most people are still locked into optimizing for pure damage or control. We all still have a long way to go before we get into the habit of optimizing as a role and as team.
4e is the first version of D&D to include great mechanics for actually HELPING you do your job as a defender/tank.... and not just some trite 'taunt' to get the baddy to attack you instead of your weak friends.

Honestly, for focusing on the tanking and defending I don't think I've seen a better fighter build yet. So kudos!

You gave me lots of ideas, and opened me up to the usefulness of Heavy Blade, which I was kind of scratching my head about before.
And honestly, after being a bit disappointed at how stat intensive the Paladin is (what else is new), this fits a bit of my need for playing a righteous armored shitekicker with some nifty divine tricks up his sleep. It has some great roleplaying potential as well.
Thanks for the catch on that, Zero. I had forgotten about that requirement. I originally had Deadly Trickster in when I was still trying to make Scimitar Dance worth it, and at that point, I had the high dex but my OA bonus was too low.

I may drop Blade Opportunist, I'm just not sure yet. I need to look at high level monster AC's to make that decision and I've been too lazy. It's imperative that the OA from Warpriest's Challenge lands as I want to do as few standard action at-wills in a fight as possible (since I have unlimited encounter abilities at high levels). You get to reroll a 1 once, but that doesn't help when you roll a 2 and miss. ;) Haha.

Improved Init would be helpful, but not totally necessary. If I do drop Blade Opportunist, Improved Init is probably better than Fleet Footed. The only time I see really needing 8 movement is if I get slid or pushed a LONG distance through difficult terrain. 7 move + 9 charge = 16 squares, or 6-15 squares through difficult terrain. In that unlikely situation, I'd expect the warlord or wizard to find some way to get me back into the action, or I'd rely on a magic item for teleport or fly or something.

I know there wasn't as much noise about your build as you might have hoped C_A, but I think it's because most people are still locked into optimizing for pure damage or control. We all still have a long way to go before we get into the habit of optimizing as a role and as team.
4e is the first version of D&D to include great mechanics for actually HELPING you do your job as a defender/tank.... and not just some trite 'taunt' to get the baddy to attack you instead of your weak friends.

Honestly, for focusing on the tanking and defending I don't think I've seen a better fighter build yet. So kudos!

You gave me lots of ideas, and opened me up to the usefulness of Heavy Blade, which I was kind of scratching my head about before.
And honestly, after being a bit disappointed at how stat intensive the Paladin is (what else is new), this fits a bit of my need for playing a righteous armored shitekicker with some nifty divine tricks up his sleep. It has some great roleplaying potential as well.

Heh, thanks a lot. It's nice to be appreciated. :D When I first posted the idea in the other thread, I was shocked at the tepid response at first. I think that you are probably right though.

I'm on this build because I'm trying to put together the "iconic 4th ed" party. I want the ultimate defender, striker, controller and leader that fit together like pieces of a puzzle. I figured the defender would be the least likely to be influenced significantly by the others and quite likely to influence them. Since I now know that he has some minor healing and radiant AoE damage he can use on undead, that means I can probably get away with a tactical warlord. A tactical warlord means that a Brutal Scoundrel rogue would be a nice fit. Wizard, well, since I have a warlord and a good defender on the front line, he can probably be a close-range blaster. But anyway, I don't want to drag this thread off topic. I'll get to them soon and eventually I'll probably post a new thread with links to all 4 builds for party unity optimization. Hehe.
I think you mean Warpriest for your paragon path.

Also, do Combat Challenge and Warpriest's Challenge stack with each other? i.e. If your marked target shifts or attacks an ally, you are granted both an immediate interrupt basic attack and an opportunity attack?

I really like the build though and it puts my Dwarven Hammer Tank to shame.
I think you mean Warpriest for your paragon path.

Also, do Combat Challenge and Warpriest's Challenge stack with each other? i.e. If your marked target shifts or attacks an ally, you are granted both an immediate interrupt basic attack and an opportunity attack?

I really like the build though and it puts my Dwarven Hammer Tank to shame.

Yeah, I do mean Warpriest. I don't think I can fix it though.

Combat Challenge [Revision]
Player’s Handbook, page 76
In the second paragraph, replace “a marked enemy that is adjacent to you shifts or makes an attack” with “an enemy marked by you is adjacent to you and shifts or makes an attack.”

The wording on Warpriest's Challenge is specific enough that you definitely can't use it on a guy that you marked with Combat Challenge. However, Combat Challenge is worded more ambiguously. It does not specify that the enemy had to be marked by Combat Challenge -- only that it had to be marked by you! By my reading of it, under raw, any enemy that was marked by your use of Warpriest's Challenge would in fact be subject to an OA AND an immediate interrupt when being naughty. I didn't consider that until I read your post. That makes the build even better. Keep this stuff coming. Haha
"An enemy marked by you is adjacent to you and shifts or makes an attack"

Yeah, I would say that Warpriest's Challenge marks the target (remember that mark is just a condition), and therefore Combat Challenge would still meet the criteria in the revision. That means if a creature tries to disobey that mark, you get an Opportunity Attack, which is replaced with Tide of Iron, and then you get an immediate basic melee attack that pushes the target 1 square further and you apply -2 to the creatures hit. All in all that's:
2[w]+strength(x2), a 2 square push, and -2 to hit
Heck, once you reach the epic tier it's even more powerful:
4[w]+strength(x2), a 2 square push, and -2 to hit
Furthermore, that 2 square push will most likely force the target to lose it's attack anyways if it is a melee attack. That is a lot of persuasion for your DM to not disobey your marks.


Here are two suggestions I have for the build:
(1) You are low on Healing Surges for a defender, try to pick up Durable
(2) If you are still tight on feats, you can replace Armor Specialization (scale) and Lightning Reflexes with Shield Specialization. You'd lose 1 speed and 1 reflex, but gain a feet for something else.
(3) Epic Resurgence is really nice when paired with Battle Cry.

I am currently working on a Dwarf version of the same concept. I chose Dwarf to help with my first suggestion. Also, +2 CON and +2 WIS seems like a good choice for the build.
"An enemy marked by you is adjacent to you and shifts or makes an attack"

Yeah, I would say that Warpriest's Challenge marks the target (remember that mark is just a condition), and therefore Combat Challenge would still meet the criteria in the revision. That means if a creature tries to disobey that mark, you get an Opportunity Attack, which is replaced with Tide of Iron, and then you get an immediate basic melee attack that pushes the target 1 square further and you apply -2 to the creatures hit. All in all that's:
2[w]+strength(x2), a 2 square push, and -2 to hit
Heck, once you reach the epic tier it's even more powerful:
4[w]+strength(x2), a 2 square push, and -2 to hit
Furthermore, that 2 square push will most likely force the target to lose it's attack anyways if it is a melee attack. That is a lot of persuasion for your DM to not disobey your marks.

Tide of iron and pushing in general is situational. Use it when appropriate -- just don't go crazy. ;) If you're surrounded though, you'd usually prefer to keep it that way as you have a lot of close burst 1 attacks (which also mark) and then you have the option to OA one guy and Immediate Interrupt a different one, and you can OA any of them in general that tries to move without shifting, use a ranged weapon, etc. If you start pushing and chasing people down with Tide, that may or may not be desirable depending on the circumstances.


Here are two suggestions I have for the build:
(1) You are low on Healing Surges for a defender, try to pick up Durable
(2) If you are still tight on feats, you can replace Armor Specialization (scale) and Lightning Reflexes with Shield Specialization. You'd lose 1 speed and 1 reflex, but gain a feet for something else.
(3) Epic Resurgence is really nice when paired with Battle Cry.

(1) Battle Cry basically counts as +2 surges already, and my con is really relatively high for anyone but a maul fighter. Picking up extra's wouldn't hurt, but I do also get a lot of healing from Demigod. If I were a Dwarf though, I'd definitely grab their version. I may end up taking your advice though, but I'd probably have to see how many I actually go through in a real play session. I can blow a couple and the Warlord (or whoever) can blow a couple. After that, more doesn't help anyway until after the encounter.
(2) Lightning Reflexes can go with little problem. Keep in mind that Armor Spec. (Scale) is also +1 movement, so I'd prefer not to lose that one.
(3) Epic Resurgence needs to be in the build. I just realized that Divine Miracle from Demigod doesn't kick in until level 30. I'll add it when I get off of work.

I am currently working on a Dwarf version of the same concept. I chose Dwarf to help with my first suggestion. Also, +2 CON and +2 WIS seems like a good choice for the build.

My original version was going to be a Dwarf, but I just couldn't pass up the human feats and the extra at-will, which is actually useful in this build. Str 16 will mean that the initial at-will for Warpriest's Challenge might be tougher to land, especially if you drop Sure Strike. Dwarf can certainly work and it has good synergy, just be aware of the hurdles.
I agree with when to use Tide of Iron and that it is less useful when surrounded. However, don't forget that Tide of Iron can also move you closer to a group of enemies.

I am a little confused on how Battle Cry equates to two healing surges. It let's you use a healing surge per encounter, which no Fighter exploit does and is incredibly valuable; but, as far as I can tell it does not raise your daily amount of HS.
*Just realized that you meant Battle Favor!

The extra speed boost from Armor Spec (scale) is nice if you're not a dwarf, but I guess that's why I didn't weigh it very heavily.

STR 18 is only a +1 bonus compared to STR 16. Also don't forget that Warpriest's Challenge could be applied during an OA. But if you're not that fortunate, Sure Strike is always there.

Also, I was curious which exploits you plan on using. I ended up with:
Sure Strike
Tide of Iron

Battle Cry
Warrior's Challenge
Warrior's Urging
Indomitable Battle Strike

Strike of the Watchful Guard
Battle Pyres
Reign of Terror
Force the Battle

Unstoppable
Defensive Training
Into the Fray
Battle Favor
Iron Warrior
No Surrender
Divine Regeneration

Also, to address the HS issue, you can pick up Iron Ring of Dwarf Lords and/or Ring of Regeneration. Personally, I feel like there are so many opportunities to spend healing surges that it's worthwhile to stack them as heavily as possible. I think it was Caelic that predicted that Healing Surges will become the new Turn Undead. And I personally don't want to force the group to take an extended rest before any of the other characters do.
I agree with when to use Tide of Iron and that it is less useful when surrounded. However, don't forget that Tide of Iron can also move you closer to a group of enemies.

Absolutely. It's a great tactical ability to have and listing every possible advantageous use would be difficult and time-consuming. I was only pointing out that it's not desirable all the time.

*Just realized that you meant Battle Favor!

Haha, yeah, I'd just woken up. Thanks.

The extra speed boost from Armor Spec (scale) is nice if you're not a dwarf, but I guess that's why I didn't weigh it very heavily.

Yeah, I realized why you missed that after I left this morning. If I were a dwarf, I'd just take Plate Proficiency and Shield Mastery instead of Scale Spec and Lightning Reflexes.

STR 18 is only a +1 bonus compared to STR 16. Also don't forget that Warpriest's Challenge could be applied during an OA. But if you're not that fortunate, Sure Strike is always there.

If you are human it is. You only get 2 at-wills as a Dwarf though, so you'd have to give up Cleave, or less likely, Tide of Iron if you take Sure Strike. That's a heck of a sacrifice in my opinion since roll once, kill two minions is pretty good for an at-will. Also, I doubt you'll want to wait around at the beginning of a fight waiting for someone to give you an OA so that you can Challenge something. More likely, you'll want to open with an at-will, so it is a minor penalty there.

Also, I was curious which exploits you plan on using. I ended up with:
Sure Strike
Tide of Iron

Battle Cry
Warrior's Challenge
Warrior's Urging
Indomitable Battle Strike

Strike of the Watchful Guard
Battle Pyres
Reign of Terror
Force the Battle

Unstoppable
Defensive Training
Into the Fray
Battle Favor
Iron Warrior
No Surrender
Divine Regeneration

Also, to address the HS issue, you can pick up Iron Ring of Dwarf Lords and/or Ring of Regeneration. Personally, I feel like there are so many opportunities to spend healing surges that it's worthwhile to stack them as heavily as possible. I think it was Caelic that predicted that Healing Surges will become the new Turn Undead. And I personally don't want to force the group to take an extended rest before any of the other characters do.

I haven't looked at any exploits seriously yet. They should be trivial to add while levelling. The build is explicit enough that it should be obvious what is optimal (or close enough) for the build. My at-wills are listed at the top and are the same as yours, + cleave for being human.

You may be right about healing surges. It's just murky at this point. However, I personally would expect the Defender to need an extended rest before anyone else. If it's any other way, the Defender either sucked or the combat went really badly. Hehe. I certainly wouldn't complain about extra healing surges, but this build is so feat intensive that it's hard to take it early enough for it to really matter (ie well before demigod healing kicks in).

Great insights though. I really appreciate everyone's criticism thus far. I'm going to go add Epic Resurgence to the build momentarily and see what else I might be able to remove for either Durability and/or Improved Init.
Bon 0. Action Surge
1st 1. Durable
2nd 2. Human Perseverance
4th 3. Improved Initiative
6th 4. Shield Push (Distracting Shield when you can)
8th 5. Blade Opportunist (Weapon Focus at 11)
10th 6. Init of the Faith
11th 7. Heavy Blade Opportunity
12th 8. Armor Spec. (Scale)
14th 9. Action Recovery
16th 10. Lightning Reflexes
18th 11. Iron Will
20th 12. Great Fortitude
21st 13. Heavy Blade Mastery
22nd 14. Triumphant Attack
24th 15. Skill:Acrobatics
26th 16. Unfettered Stride
28th 17. Flanking Maneuver
30th 18. Blind Fight

maybe this might be a good set of feats you lose Mettle and Eviasion.
as for Epic Resurgence I dont think it would be so useful as its only the first attack each turn.
Actually, I don't really understand why you would put any other feats before Initiate of the Faith. Action Surge is nice, but it's not (IMO) as likely to address the main problem with tanking at 1st level: your always imminent death.

Thus, I think this may be better:

Bon 0. Init of the Faith
1st 1. Action Surge
2nd 2. Durable
4th 3. Human Perseverance
6th 4. Improved Initiative
8th 5. Blade Opportunist (Weapon Focus at 11)
10th 6. Shield Push (Distracting Shield when you can)
...

I've been working on a version of this build that's a dwarf using hammers. I guess I'll work that up and post it soon.
Bon 0. Action Surge
1st 1. Durable
2nd 2. Human Perseverance
4th 3. Improved Initiative
6th 4. Shield Push (Distracting Shield when you can)
8th 5. Blade Opportunist (Weapon Focus at 11)
10th 6. Init of the Faith
11th 7. Heavy Blade Opportunity
12th 8. Armor Spec. (Scale)
14th 9. Action Recovery
16th 10. Lightning Reflexes
18th 11. Iron Will
20th 12. Great Fortitude
21st 13. Heavy Blade Mastery
22nd 14. Triumphant Attack
24th 15. Skill:Acrobatics
26th 16. Unfettered Stride
28th 17. Flanking Maneuver
30th 18. Blind Fight

maybe this might be a good set of feats you lose Mettle and Eviasion.
as for Epic Resurgence I dont think it would be so useful as its only the first attack each turn.

I'm about to post quite a few changes I just made to the build. I'll detail them in this post and make some notes on your choices. These are just my untested opinions, btw. Discussion can certainly persuade me if the case is good:

I value Blind Fight much higher than you do. The key thing here is that you can now make opportunity attacks vs. invisible/concealed foes. I bet that will be a big deal in the epic tier.

I decided to drop athletics, flaking maneuver and unfettered stride. They just come too late in the build to be useful. By level 26, we'll probably all be flying most of the time anyway.

I think I like Danger Sense better than Improved initiative (I added both of them to the new build). It's an average of +3.325 init instead of +4, but the bonus is higher when you roll bad initially and lower when you roll high initially. That means that when you would have rolled high anyway, it matters less. However, when you would have rolled low, it can be a huge bonus.

Mettle and Evasion are likely to be key. It seems like a lot of area attacks deal damage on misses. We're almost always going to be right in the middle of the area.

I think Epic Resurgence is better than you think. It's essentially two uses of an encounter ability that's best suited for the particular encounter, and it should almost always trigger. It also means your dailies will go further since the extra encounter ability might be close in usefulness. Even at level 30 it's mildly useful (maybe not better than other things) since we can use our best encounter ability 1 extra time before we've exhausted all of them.

I did decide to dump triumphant attack because we're just too feat intensive to bother. Let a dagger rogue do it or something. Hehe

Great fortitude seems a bit of a waste to me in this build. Going from 43 to 45... Don't get me wrong, it's not terrible. I just think we can do better.

I now drop blade opportunist eventually. We're just too feat intensive and our OA attack bonus is crazy already anyway. Plus there's Sure Strike for tough situations.

Weapon Focus just doesn't really fit the build to me. We're not really concerned with anything dieing, except for our buddies. ;) I'd prefer power attack since you can use it on low ac, high hp enemies when warranted, or pretty much constantly on OA's. I think we have better though.

I added Durable, though much later than you. In the early levels, I don't think there's really much to do with them anyway. Milestones don't matter yet, you don't have a lot of rituals that use them, and there aren't that many ways to trigger them. I think it's worth picking up mid-late in the build, but taking it early slows down other stuff too much imho.

Personally, I don't get the hooplah over Human Perseverance. It's basically +9% chance to shake off an effect that a save can end. That's ok I guess, but I wouldn't rank it over mettle, evasion, epic resurgence, etc. I left it in the build (mostly) because people seem to disagree with me. Now, if npc's have the ability to lower your save chance, it immediately becomes quite good. If you only save on a 5, for instance, it's now a 20% increase in chance to save.
-------
Ok, now here's an optimization tactic that I was already using, but I put to very heavy use in the new build. I call it "feat acceleration." Basically, I dump earlier feats (sometimes temporarily) in order to pick up the best feats as early as possible in a new tier. You still come out the same in the end, but this should make your life much easier at levels 11-16 and 21-26. I'm predicting now that this will become extremely popular on this board if it isn't already.
-------

Ok, it's brainstorming time. Haha. What do you guys think are the weakest few feats in the new build, in order, and why. What would you replace them with and why?
Actually, I don't really understand why you would put any other feats before Initiate of the Faith. Action Surge is nice, but it's not (IMO) as likely to address the main problem with tanking at 1st level: your always imminent death.

Thus, I think this may be better:

Bon 0. Init of the Faith
1st 1. Action Surge
2nd 2. Durable
4th 3. Human Perseverance
6th 4. Improved Initiative
8th 5. Blade Opportunist (Weapon Focus at 11)
10th 6. Shield Push (Distracting Shield when you can)
...

I've been working on a version of this build that's a dwarf using hammers. I guess I'll work that up and post it soon.

I agree completely on initiate. I take it at level 2, actually.

With a hammer variant, it may be worthwhile to pick up quickdraw and Heavy Blade Opportunity (not blade opportunist, oops) anyway if you can spare the feats and meet the pre-req's. That lets you pull off the crazy Divine Challenge recursion without sacrificing any actions.
"With a hammer variant, it may be worthwhile to pick up quickdraw and Heavy Blade Opportunity (not blade opportunist, oops) anyway if you can spare the feats and meet the pre-req's. That lets you pull off the crazy Divine Challenge recursion without sacrificing any actions."

I'm not sure the Quickdraw/Heavy Blade Opportunity would work, actually.

Mostly, I'm not sure I can quickdraw when I have a warhammer in my hand and I'm not sure I can take the free action to drop it right before the opportunity attack.

Actually, I'm also not sure what you mean by "the crazy Divine Challenge recursion", lol. Isn't that a paladin feature?

EDIT: Oh, of course, warpriest challenge, duh...
"With a hammer variant, it may be worthwhile to pick up quickdraw and Heavy Blade Opportunity (not blade opportunist, oops) anyway if you can spare the feats and meet the pre-req's. That lets you pull off the crazy Divine Challenge recursion without sacrificing any actions."

I'm not sure the Quickdraw/Heavy Blade Opportunity would work, actually.

Mostly, I'm not sure I can quickdraw when I have a warhammer in my hand and I'm not sure I can take the free action to drop it right before the opportunity attack.

Actually, I'm also not sure what you mean by "the crazy Divine Challenge recursion", lol. Isn't that a paladin feature?

I mean Warpriest's Challenge. God, I screw these things up a lot. Haha. It's detailed in the thread I link at the top of the first post. In a nutshell, since you can make OA's with at-wills, you can re-apply Warpriest's Challenge every time you use it if you don't miss. This is important because WC specifically says "the next time", so by RAW, that means you only get 1 shot at it until you reapply it. If anyone wants to talk further about that, please do it in the other topic so that we can keep this one as build-related as possible.

Well, if you use a light shield, you are allowed to hold something in your other hand. That may let you get around it, I'm not sure. We might need an official answer on that one. Worst case, I guess you burn a minor action to sheathe your weapon (when you haven't used it for something else) at the end of each round. Then there's no problem.
Just curious, why the con at 14?
you could go con 13 and wis 14 if you wanted to... loses 1 fort def for 1 will def and gains 1 attack on ao at the begining... for 1 hp i guess your right but all in all it doesnt make a big diff at the end just for your first 3 levels.
I'm at work so I don't have the books handy. Iirc, the 14 con enables me to get Armor Specialization (Scale) during the Paragon tier. I think it has a 15 con requirement. If not, that's probably a good trade to make.
I'm at work so I don't have the books handy. Iirc, the 14 con enables me to get Armor Specialization (Scale) during the Paragon tier. I think it has a 15 con requirement. If not, that's probably a good trade to make.

15 dex for armor spec scale btw
Ok, good tip guys on the stat change. I decided to make it come out the same as I had it before in the end, but I did modify the starting stats. It's a judgment call though. If you drop 1 con and add 1 dex (while levelling) from where it's at now, it's -1 hp, -1 fort, -1 healing surge for +1 reflex. To me, the extra healing surge pulls the higher con slightly ahead in the final tally.
I'm surprised you're not using any of the power-swap feats, especially with the human's extra at-will. Righteous Brand seems like a good combo with Heavy Blade Opportunity. What are the least-necessary feats you could trade for power-swap?

Also, would you mind giving an example of power selections?

Thanks

Edit: How would the build differ for a character with Polearm Gambit?
power swap feats in a build that is really running too many feats as is I doubt it would happen. there are still 3 feats this build wants to take in the epic and doesn't have room.

polearm gambit doesnt let you take of heavy blade oportunist, letting you use at wills on AoO's and lets you also use a shield for +2 AC and +2 reflex save both are key for a defensive build as well.
I'm surprised you're not using any of the power-swap feats, especially with the human's extra at-will. Righteous Brand seems like a good combo with Heavy Blade Opportunity. What are the least-necessary feats you could trade for power-swap?

Also, would you mind giving an example of power selections?

Thanks

Edit: How would the build differ for a character with Polearm Gambit?

Honestly, I've just been so focused on fighter stuff that I haven't carefully examined powers in general, especially outside of fighter. It's on my to-do list. I mostly read through them to see if there was anything special that would contribute to the rest of the build. The power-swaps may well be worth it, I just haven't looked at them yet. As far as I know though, the only way to trade an at-will is through Paragon multi-classing which kills the major benefits of this build (Warpriest's Challenge, healing, radiant damage, etc.). If there's a way to trade without paragon multi-classing, I'd probably swap Sure Strike out for Righteous Brand once OA's were high enough.

Whenever I get a chance to go over powers in more detail, I'll post them. I'm not sure when I'll get to it though. I probably won't get to looking at cleric powers too quickly, but you should be able to drop 1-3 of the following feats if you find things to justify it.
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If I did drop feats right now, my personal first choice would be Human Perseverance. Other people seem to really like it, and it's decent. In my opinion, it's the weakest thing currently in the build. All of these are my opinions though, and it's all theory in my head. This stuff is so new it will probably take some playing for us to really wrap our heads around it.

Danger Sense and Improved Init. are both nice to have, but there's no gigantic benefit like there would be to a rogue, for instance. I like Danger Sense over Improved Init. in this build mainly because I don't care if I go first, I just would prefer to go somewhere in the middle instead of last. All I really want to do is get out front of the party before the enemy closes too much.

Lightning Reflexes and Iron Will could both go. I'm not taking them until 28 and 30 though, so it's not a lot of room to work with.
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If you are talking about wielding a polearm (read glaive, since it's a heavy blade) all of the time, you'd have to drop all of the shield stuff including Distracting Shield, Shield Push and Tide of Iron (not to mention -2 AC and Reflex). That makes you a lot less tactical. You could theoretically Quickdraw it for the gamble, but you'd probably have to drop your weapon (and maybe shield) unless you burn a minor at the end of the round to sheathe it. Your OA with polearm gambit obviously can't use Tide of Iron since glaive is 2-handed.

It's probably not a good idea in this build anyway as it discourages things from closing on you, which really isn't what you want anyway. If they try to move past you, you get the OA as they move away. When it would be beneficial is if they are trying to hit an enemy standing next to you, but they could usually avoid getting too close to you before they got to him anyway.
The build looks okay, but I do have a few comments:
* Action Surge is nice, but will it be more useful over the course of an adventure than feats like Toughness (more HP also equals better healing surges) and the defense boosters (Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, and Iron Will)? I'd rate the three defense boosting feats very high...higher than several of the choices you made.
* Likewise, while Durable is nice, chances are that your party members will run out of healing surges before you even without the feat. In a team situation, the first person to run out is going to be the reason you stop for an extended rest. I'd take Toughness before Durable - once again, more HP equals less surges used after each battle.
* From what people have said after reviewing the MM, attacks that do damage on a miss target Fort and Will more often than Reflex, so Mettle should come before Evasion.
* I'm not a big fan of initiative-boosters, personally. Sure, you're less likely to act first...but that's a lot more important for a striker or controller than a defender. Blowing two feats to raise the possibility you go first (and it's still not guaranteed) seems to be a waste.
* Action Recovery really depends on your adventuring companions. If you are traveling with classes that can give you saves, it's not really needed. If you're aren't, it's VERY useful. In 4E, you can't really design characters without thinking about who you are adventuring with.
* Back to the Wall is underrated. Attack bonuses are hard to come by, it also boosts AC, and you can find walls in most places. The bonus is untyped instead of a feat bonus, so it stacks.
* I agree with you about Blind-Fight - VERY useful.
Thanks for looking it over, Fed. I appreciate it. BTW, I do expect this build to change with play as it hasn't been tested yet.

The build looks okay, but I do have a few comments:
* Action Surge is nice, but will it be more useful over the course of an adventure than feats like Toughness (more HP also equals better healing surges) and the defense boosters (Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, and Iron Will)? I'd rate the three defense boosting feats very high...higher than several of the choices you made.

You may be right about Action Surge, actually. It's a good candidate to drop somewhere mid-paragon, probably for Lightning Reflexes. I'm thinking that Great Fortitude probably isn't terribly necessary (though certainly desirable) since Fort defense is already really high (and who targets fort defense on the armored guy anyway? Haha), but Iron Will would be helpful earlier if I can fit it in.

* Likewise, while Durable is nice, chances are that your party members will run out of healing surges before you even without the feat. In a team situation, the first person to run out is going to be the reason you stop for an extended rest. I'd take Toughness before Durable - once again, more HP equals less surges used after each battle.

It's in there on the advice of others in the thread. The primary idea is that the healing surges can be put to work when the Wizard casts rituals. However, the more I think about it, the more I think I agree that it's not the best choice. It's just not worth blowing a feat in an already feat-starved build.

* From what people have said after reviewing the MM, attacks that do damage on a miss target Fort and Will more often than Reflex, so Mettle should come before Evasion.

I haven't looked much at the MM. Thanks for the tip.

* I'm not a big fan of initiative-boosters, personally. Sure, you're less likely to act first...but that's a lot more important for a striker or controller than a defender. Blowing two feats to raise the possibility you go first (and it's still not guaranteed) seems to be a waste.

Ok, this one I disagree (somewhat) on. The idea is that I'm not concerned with going first. I just don't want to go too near the end. For example, let's say the party is several squares from a 2-square-wide corridor, and they spot and are spotted by 4 soldier-types at the end. If I go somewhere near the middle, I can barricade the tunnel and stop enough of them from reaching the party and flanking the wizard, for example. If I go last, it's too late. This is the theory anyway, and it's the archetypal example. Practically, Danger Sense is probably enough for that without Improved Init.

* Action Recovery really depends on your adventuring companions. If you are traveling with classes that can give you saves, it's not really needed. If you're aren't, it's VERY useful. In 4E, you can't really design characters without thinking about who you are adventuring with.

Quite right. When this character was initially designed, it was totally in a vacuum. I now think that an inspiring warlord will be tagging along, making it somewhat less useful. It will and should be retrained out if and when it's usefulness wanes.

* Back to the Wall is underrated. Attack bonuses are hard to come by, it also boosts AC, and you can find walls in most places. The bonus is untyped instead of a feat bonus, so it stacks.

It should be dynamite in corridors. In somewhat larger rooms, however, it's probably useless for a defender. The reason is that you typically want to threaten as many squares as possible in order to keep the enemy from just going around you to get to the back row. If you are up against a wall in a 4-square-wide room though, now the enemies have twice as much room to get past you. Now, if pillars and such count as walls (do they?), then I think I'm on board. Otherwise, I think it depends on party composition.

* I agree with you about Blind-Fight - VERY useful.

Yeah, especially in this build where the strongest ability, imho, relies directly on OA's.

Thanks again for your comments. They've actually been a big help. I'll post the changes as soon as I figure out exactly what I want to do.
this build was tested by me tonight at level 4 as well as level 11 let me tell you durable is really needed for this character if you are at all doing your job.

as well saves are a huge bonus to humans and it came into play 4 out of probly 20 rolls tonight for saves we failed by 1 because no perserverance. get it because a fighter who has some affect is usally useless and cannot make AoO's

I have debated a dwarf version of this build would net 2 more healing surges and + con mod to healing... let me tell you this char can run through a lot of hit points, usally 2-3 per encounter thats 10-15 used before an extended rest.

if you went high con and hammer rhythm then ok durable might not be worth it but if you go this char's route of high wis/str you need the extra surges with all the marking going on.
this build was tested by me tonight at level 4 as well as level 11 let me tell you durable is really needed for this character if you are at all doing your job.

as well saves are a huge bonus to humans and it came into play 4 out of probly 20 rolls tonight for saves we failed by 1 because no perserverance. get it because a fighter who has some affect is usally useless and cannot make AoO's

That's the type of info that I just don't have yet, but I can see how that could be the case. Since our primary responsibility is to protect people and not die, I think I'll be doing another re-write shortly. Thanks a lot.

EDIT: The new build is up. There was supposed to be another intermediate one in there, but the boards apparently ate it. Anyway, it's up to date now.

I decided to still drop Human Perseverance for a time. It's just not as good as a lot of the other defense stuff, no matter how you slice it. You just had an odd run where you rolled 4 10's in 20 rolls. The statistical odds that it will help you are literally 1 in 20 rolls, which not coincidently is how often you expect to roll a 10 on a d20. In later levels, you have Action Recovery and things like Warlord powers to let you roll extra times anyway.
btw since you don't get the warpriest ability to make op attacks vrs the one you marked I dont think its really needed to get heavy blade op till level 16.

as for the action recovery it depends on if you have a warlord or a cleric in the party a wis based cleric can always use sacred flame to allow you to make a saving throw.
btw since you don't get the warpriest ability to make op attacks vrs the one you marked I dont think its really needed to get heavy blade op till level 16.

as for the action recovery it depends on if you have a warlord or a cleric in the party a wis based cleric can always use sacred flame to allow you to make a saving throw.

The first point is valid and I may move it. I'll take a look at it tomorrow evening.

The second is also valid, but I think I'll hold off until I see what that level range is like. The warlord or cleric can let you make "a" saving throw, whereas the human feat can let you make several. It's also the case that you could do something like burn an action point (for an extra action) and roll against, say, 3 things and fail one. Then you could use the warlord's Inspired Recovery feat to roll again against the one you failed with a big bonus. This seems pretty good to me, especially as the Warlord doesn't have to do anything other than stand around and look pretty. IIRC, at the D&D experience, my fighter was afflicted with 3 different status effects that saves could end. I don't know how often it will come up, but it came up once in my first 8 encounters or so at level 1.
I've been considering picking up Acolyte Power to get Cure Serious Wounds in place of your 6th level utility power. CSW is essentially two more HSs. I dunno, if you're still looking for ways to beef up your survivability or not, but I thought it might help.
I've been considering picking up Acolyte Power to get Cure Serious Wounds in place of your 6th level utility power. CSW is essentially two more HSs. I dunno, if you're still looking for ways to beef up your survivability or not, but I thought it might help.

I'm looking at things in a bit of a vacuum as I still haven't gone through and tried to pick optimal powers. Anyway, I think it's a good trade. Without Acolyte Power, our best option is probably Defensive Training. While good, there are a couple of problems. First, you can't use it along with any other stance, which may or may not matter. Again, I haven't picked powers yet. Second, it's a power bonus so there may be a lot of situations where it won't stack.

Keep in mind that you can't pick up Acolyte power until 8th level. I'd recommend completely dropping Combat Reflexes and taking it there. Then, train out of Human Perseverance at 11. At 13, don't train out of anything -- just skip Mettle. I think that I may make that the "official" (for lack of a better word) build. Just in general, non-surge healing seems very strong to me, and that means Cleric utilities.

On a side note, I like Evasion over Mettle for the following reasons:

1) Evasion and Mettle only prevent damage, not debuffs.

2) It seems to me that the most likely source of said damage to our fighter will come from fireball-type effects and NPC's wielding hammers or scimitars, not from monsters.
I am in the same situation where I have yet to try this build out in. I plan on playing through a few level 18encounters with my DM to get a feel for how the mechanics will work and also if it is more important to have more HS uses/encounter or more total HS/day.

Just bear in mind that you not only need to be able to heal, but you also need to have enough healing surges to survive 5 encounters (extended rest) minimum. Looking at my level 18 build, that will be very easy to achieve currently. I am trying to shoot for about 20 HS (or effective HS such as cure serious wounds) at level 18.
I am in the same situation where I have yet to try this build out in. I plan on playing through a few level 18encounters with my DM to get a feel for how the mechanics will work and also if it is more important to have more HS uses/encounter or more total HS/day.

I'd probably err on the side of HS/day. My reasoning is that you should (hopefully) be able to expect party members to help trigger your HS's. This build already helps the leaders out far more with that than they have any right to expect from a fighter, imho. Haha

Just bear in mind that you not only need to be able to heal, but you also need to have enough healing surges to survive 5 encounters (extended rest) minimum. Looking at my level 18 build, that will be very easy to achieve currently. I am trying to shoot for about 20 HS (or effective HS such as cure serious wounds) at level 18.

Just out of curiosity, is there a reason why you've chosen 5 encounters as the benchmark? Also, as many have suggested in this thread, a Dwarf can make an excellent version of this character, though you do have to lose an at-will (which is actually useful to a fighter in this build. Go figure). That gives access to Dwarven Durability which could go a long way -- even with our modest con. It's strictly better than Durability, but the beauty is that you can take both of them.
Since you're a human, why don't you take righteous brand as a daily (since you multiclassed at level 1, cleric counts as your class too, so you can take the extra at-will from it....and its a lot better than sure strike since it can setup your allies to hit easier).
Two things of note I see with this build that lookt o be incorrect:

Initiate of the faith does not give you healing word 1/encounter, it gives you access to healing word 1/day.

The second is on the topic of marking. It is my understanding that a creature can only be marked from a single source and that if a second source does mark the creature it simply overwrites the previous mark. As a fighters mark and the Warpriests mark come from two different sources it is my understanding that you could only enjoy the benefits of one of those marks at a time (that being said you do have the ability to choose which you would like to enjoy on any given turn). Becauss if you apply the second then you overwrite the first.

Other than that the build looks pretty solid


love,

malkav