Wizard (again)

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I have read the full PHB so i do have an idea of what I am talking about. I have to say this for fear that the following will get me some grief.

First off I am going to applaud the people over at WOTC for there balancing of the basic classes. I have not seen all of them on the battle field yet, but so far they look fairly balanced. This is a big improvement over the difference in power of the 3.5 characters (ex any class vs fighter, fighter would loss unproportionally)

Now that being said we come to the Wizard. Yes it is nerfed. I understand why, I played a wizard for the past 2 years in 3.5 i could do anything, I have made wizards that if given a round for a few spells could out melee a fighter, or out sneak a rogue, the only thing that a wizard could not do in 3.5 was heal like a cleric. So the only option was to make every class extremely powerful so as to keep the wizard in check, or to drop the wizard down a few notches. The last one is easier.

Now with that said. They seem to have gone a bit overboard with the whole lets nerf a wizard. I mean invisibility is only usable once per day and only lasts a round, I understand making it once per day but one round? You can barely sneak around the castle front guard in that time. Also i thought that powers per day were supposed to be more powerful than per encounter powers and from what I have seen only a few are. (rant: why is fireball a per day power when fire burst is per encounter? I know the level difference but still.)

Now on the subject of rituals. I spent a lot of time in 3.5 avoiding spells with costly materials, I had to buy my spells (why are spell books never found as treasure?) also with the loss of the ability to copy scrolls into a spellbook it now costs even more for a wizard to get a ritual. So now I have to save my money more than before. So when it comes to casting something that costs me 250 gold it had better be worth it. [INDENT]Another thing, IMO i see the materials cost as a way to deter a wizard from spamming a certain really good spell. But the isn't this they same as increasing the casting time? I mean if it now takes me 10 min to cast water breathing or water walk i sure hope that im not being chased by a hord of orcs that want to make me into a lampshade, because it might just be easier to drown. I mean yeah a cast time is needed for some spells (again 3.5 was not balanced with all of the 1 round cast spells) because it is a balancing factor, but lets face it isn't one minute enough for a passwall spell, cause at ten minutes any good security would catch you crouched next to the outer wall of the castle. (and at 1,000 gp it better be a castle made of silver).[/INDENT]
[INDENT]Now you might ask as to why not just use a scroll of pass wall i mean after all it decreases cast time by one half. Simple they cost so much that you have to sell the party halfling to get one (sorry no gnomes to pick on ).[/INDENT]



On a side note I would also be in favor of the old system where they was a limit to powers like 3/day. Better balanced and fills in that large gap between the per encounter and per day powers.



(um this post got a bit longer than expected so here have some smiles)
:invasion: :invasion:
(I dont need to say this, but please post your opinions below, I would like to know what you think.)
Im sorry but ADEU is a French word for goodbye, not a combat system. You say, "Encounter Power" and I stop listening to you. [spoiler Have Played/Run] D&D 1st ed D&D 3.5 ed D&D 4th ed Shadowrun Star Wars SAGA Cyberpunk Interlock Unlimited Run.Net [/spoiler] I know my games, don't try to argue about them. [spoiler Alignment Explained] This is a very simple problem and I will outline it below. Their are two types of people Type 1: a lot of people (not all, but a lot) who play see alignment as "I am lawful good thus I must play lawful good" Type 2: a lot of people (not all, but a lot) who play see alignment as "My previous actions have made people and the gods view me as lawful good. The difference is subtle but it is the source of the misunderstanding. Alignment does not dictate how you play your character. All it does is tell you, the player, how the rest of the world views you, and your previous actions. Any future actions will be judged by their own merits. Say you're a baby eating pyromaniac. You are most likely chaotic evil. But one day you decide, "Hey all I really need is love." So you get a wife, have a kid, and get a kitten named Mr. Snook'ems. You become a member of the PTA and help build houses for the homeless. You are no longer chaotic evil. And just because you were once chaotic evil it does not mean that you have to stay chaotic evil. Alignment never dictates what you can do, it only says what you have done. Now that is cleared up here is a simple test. What is the alignment of... A Police officer: The average Citizen: A Vigilante: The answer is simple. The Police officer is lawful good. He uses the laws of the country and city to arrest people and make them pay their debt to society. The Citizen is Neutral good. He wants to live is a place that is Good and follows moral and ethical principle, but he sometimes finds the laws impedes him, and he wonders why we spend so much on poor people. The Vigilante is Chaotic Good. He wants to uphold the morals and ethics of society but finds that the bad guys often slip through the cracks in the law. He takes it upon himself to protect the people from these criminals. That is the basic breakdown of the good alignment axis. What needs to be remembered is that any one of these people can change alignments, easily. The Police officer could be bought off by a local gang, and suddenly he drops to lawful neutral. The average citizen might find that his neighbors dog is annoying, barking at night and keeping him up. So he poisons its food, now he is no longer good, he is stepping towards true neutral. Maybe the citizen really goes crazy also kills the neighbor, hello neutral evil. It is possible that the Vigilante realizes that the cops are actually doing a pretty good job and decides to become an officer himself, leaving his masked crime fighting days behind him. Now he is Lawful good. Your alignment is not carved in stone, it is malleable and will change to reflect your actions.[/spoiler]
This is an append to the earlier message.

I have heard it argued that Wizards roll is to just take out the minions of the enemy. To this I just have to say, does it feel good when a fighter drops a 1 hp creature? No? How about 10? Still no? Hmm wonder how it feels for a wizard...
Im sorry but ADEU is a French word for goodbye, not a combat system. You say, "Encounter Power" and I stop listening to you. [spoiler Have Played/Run] D&D 1st ed D&D 3.5 ed D&D 4th ed Shadowrun Star Wars SAGA Cyberpunk Interlock Unlimited Run.Net [/spoiler] I know my games, don't try to argue about them. [spoiler Alignment Explained] This is a very simple problem and I will outline it below. Their are two types of people Type 1: a lot of people (not all, but a lot) who play see alignment as "I am lawful good thus I must play lawful good" Type 2: a lot of people (not all, but a lot) who play see alignment as "My previous actions have made people and the gods view me as lawful good. The difference is subtle but it is the source of the misunderstanding. Alignment does not dictate how you play your character. All it does is tell you, the player, how the rest of the world views you, and your previous actions. Any future actions will be judged by their own merits. Say you're a baby eating pyromaniac. You are most likely chaotic evil. But one day you decide, "Hey all I really need is love." So you get a wife, have a kid, and get a kitten named Mr. Snook'ems. You become a member of the PTA and help build houses for the homeless. You are no longer chaotic evil. And just because you were once chaotic evil it does not mean that you have to stay chaotic evil. Alignment never dictates what you can do, it only says what you have done. Now that is cleared up here is a simple test. What is the alignment of... A Police officer: The average Citizen: A Vigilante: The answer is simple. The Police officer is lawful good. He uses the laws of the country and city to arrest people and make them pay their debt to society. The Citizen is Neutral good. He wants to live is a place that is Good and follows moral and ethical principle, but he sometimes finds the laws impedes him, and he wonders why we spend so much on poor people. The Vigilante is Chaotic Good. He wants to uphold the morals and ethics of society but finds that the bad guys often slip through the cracks in the law. He takes it upon himself to protect the people from these criminals. That is the basic breakdown of the good alignment axis. What needs to be remembered is that any one of these people can change alignments, easily. The Police officer could be bought off by a local gang, and suddenly he drops to lawful neutral. The average citizen might find that his neighbors dog is annoying, barking at night and keeping him up. So he poisons its food, now he is no longer good, he is stepping towards true neutral. Maybe the citizen really goes crazy also kills the neighbor, hello neutral evil. It is possible that the Vigilante realizes that the cops are actually doing a pretty good job and decides to become an officer himself, leaving his masked crime fighting days behind him. Now he is Lawful good. Your alignment is not carved in stone, it is malleable and will change to reflect your actions.[/spoiler]
This is an append to the earlier message.

I have heard it argued that Wizards roll is to just take out the minions of the enemy. To this I just have to say, does it feel good when a fighter drops a 1 hp creature? No? How about 10? Still no? Hmm wonder how it feels for a wizard...

You should have no way of knowing which mobs are minions and which are toughs of one variety or another. The supposition that a wizards role is to nuke minions is poorly concieved. Wizards shine in meta-combat by controlling battlefield conditions and directing mobs into areas that either prevent them from having good access to the strikers/controllers/leaders or leading them into areas that allow your defenders/strikers to lay down the law on them.
You should have no way of knowing which mobs are minions and which are toughs of one variety or another. The supposition that a wizards role is to nuke minions is poorly concieved. Wizards shine in meta-combat by controlling battlefield conditions and directing mobs into areas that either prevent them from having good access to the strikers/controllers/leaders or leading them into areas that allow your defenders/strikers to lay down the law on them.

Okay, in terms of knowing which ones are minions, I agree the DM shouldn't just say which are indeed, minions. However, the DM should describe how they look so a reasonably attentive player can figure it out. For instance, a bunch of orcs running after you, some are armed with metal weapons, the rest are armed with crude wooden clubs, sometimes consisting of the nearest tree branch, and said orcs are wearing crude leather armour. Guess what, my guess is the ones with metal weapons are bigger and tougher than the ones with the tree branch clubs.
I think part of the "edition shock" with wizards is that if you really want to play up the controller aspect of it you need as higher (or higher) Wisdom than your Intelligence, as most of the effects and abilities that are control based use wisdom to determine the potency of the effect.

Of course, if you just want to be a pseudo-blaster with no regard for your allies you can just crank up the Intelligence to the detriment of all things just like in the old editions... it just doesn't make you the best character on the board anymore.

Another odd thing, is that wizards powers are very much not that impressive when you read through them without taking into account the various wizard flavored feats (spell focus, the epic one that lets you omit squares from your area effects, etc.) and Implement mastery features... when you get things all assembled in total and realize that a wizard can create higher save penalties than any other class... it makes all of those (save ends) effects a decent bit more potent.

ATTENTION:  If while reading my post you find yourself thinking "Either this guy is being sarcastic, or he is an idiot," do please assume that I am an idiot. It makes reading your replies more entertaining. If, however, you find yourself hoping that I am not being even remotely serious then you are very likely correct as I find irreverence and being ridiculous to be relaxing.

You should have no way of knowing which mobs are minions and which are toughs of one variety or another. The supposition that a wizards role is to nuke minions is poorly concieved. Wizards shine in meta-combat by controlling battlefield conditions and directing mobs into areas that either prevent them from having good access to the strikers/controllers/leaders or leading them into areas that allow your defenders/strikers to lay down the law on them.

True but with there being a larger focus on minions in 4th edition it means that a party is mostly facing minions, especially at lower levels. With the whole 4 minions equal one challenge rating at first or second level that means that a few 1/2 CR minions and a leader like a lvl 1 human fighter that would be a pretty intense encounter for any party, if the minions had more than one hit point. But now any one can simply blast away the minions and focus on the Human fighter.

To elaborate: a ranger could probably drop 2 or 3 minions before they even got the the party, and any striker worth his weight could finish the rest without using many, if any, powers. So where does the wizard fit in? i mean sure he can make the Human fighter avoid certain area of the battlefield for a round, possible pushing him into a corner (hard to do with only one spell [not counting action points]), but after one round the spell fades, and then he is free to move again. Or at higher levels the Human fighter could just tank the damage that the wizard throws out with his splash [battle field manipulation] spells.
Im sorry but ADEU is a French word for goodbye, not a combat system. You say, "Encounter Power" and I stop listening to you. [spoiler Have Played/Run] D&D 1st ed D&D 3.5 ed D&D 4th ed Shadowrun Star Wars SAGA Cyberpunk Interlock Unlimited Run.Net [/spoiler] I know my games, don't try to argue about them. [spoiler Alignment Explained] This is a very simple problem and I will outline it below. Their are two types of people Type 1: a lot of people (not all, but a lot) who play see alignment as "I am lawful good thus I must play lawful good" Type 2: a lot of people (not all, but a lot) who play see alignment as "My previous actions have made people and the gods view me as lawful good. The difference is subtle but it is the source of the misunderstanding. Alignment does not dictate how you play your character. All it does is tell you, the player, how the rest of the world views you, and your previous actions. Any future actions will be judged by their own merits. Say you're a baby eating pyromaniac. You are most likely chaotic evil. But one day you decide, "Hey all I really need is love." So you get a wife, have a kid, and get a kitten named Mr. Snook'ems. You become a member of the PTA and help build houses for the homeless. You are no longer chaotic evil. And just because you were once chaotic evil it does not mean that you have to stay chaotic evil. Alignment never dictates what you can do, it only says what you have done. Now that is cleared up here is a simple test. What is the alignment of... A Police officer: The average Citizen: A Vigilante: The answer is simple. The Police officer is lawful good. He uses the laws of the country and city to arrest people and make them pay their debt to society. The Citizen is Neutral good. He wants to live is a place that is Good and follows moral and ethical principle, but he sometimes finds the laws impedes him, and he wonders why we spend so much on poor people. The Vigilante is Chaotic Good. He wants to uphold the morals and ethics of society but finds that the bad guys often slip through the cracks in the law. He takes it upon himself to protect the people from these criminals. That is the basic breakdown of the good alignment axis. What needs to be remembered is that any one of these people can change alignments, easily. The Police officer could be bought off by a local gang, and suddenly he drops to lawful neutral. The average citizen might find that his neighbors dog is annoying, barking at night and keeping him up. So he poisons its food, now he is no longer good, he is stepping towards true neutral. Maybe the citizen really goes crazy also kills the neighbor, hello neutral evil. It is possible that the Vigilante realizes that the cops are actually doing a pretty good job and decides to become an officer himself, leaving his masked crime fighting days behind him. Now he is Lawful good. Your alignment is not carved in stone, it is malleable and will change to reflect your actions.[/spoiler]
.....

Another odd thing, is that wizards powers are very much not that impressive when you read through them without taking into account the various wizard flavored feats (spell focus, the epic one that lets you omit squares from your area effects, etc.) and Implement mastery features... when you get things all assembled in total and realize that a wizard can create higher save penalties than any other class... it makes all of those (save ends) effects a decent bit more potent.

Actually it does not, every round after the first the creature effected only had to roll a ten or higher to beat the persisting effect. This can be found on page 279 of the PHB under saving throws.

✦End of Turn: At the end of your turn, you make a
saving throw against each effect on you that a save
can end. Roll a d20, with one of the following results:

Lower than 10: Failure. The effect continues.

10 or higher: Success. The effect ends.

What this means is the the effected monster has a 55% chance to make the save every round. If you do some statistics that makes the average time a little over a round. So on average you will only be dealing the continuous damage once, then the target will save and again wizards are back to square one.
Im sorry but ADEU is a French word for goodbye, not a combat system. You say, "Encounter Power" and I stop listening to you. [spoiler Have Played/Run] D&D 1st ed D&D 3.5 ed D&D 4th ed Shadowrun Star Wars SAGA Cyberpunk Interlock Unlimited Run.Net [/spoiler] I know my games, don't try to argue about them. [spoiler Alignment Explained] This is a very simple problem and I will outline it below. Their are two types of people Type 1: a lot of people (not all, but a lot) who play see alignment as "I am lawful good thus I must play lawful good" Type 2: a lot of people (not all, but a lot) who play see alignment as "My previous actions have made people and the gods view me as lawful good. The difference is subtle but it is the source of the misunderstanding. Alignment does not dictate how you play your character. All it does is tell you, the player, how the rest of the world views you, and your previous actions. Any future actions will be judged by their own merits. Say you're a baby eating pyromaniac. You are most likely chaotic evil. But one day you decide, "Hey all I really need is love." So you get a wife, have a kid, and get a kitten named Mr. Snook'ems. You become a member of the PTA and help build houses for the homeless. You are no longer chaotic evil. And just because you were once chaotic evil it does not mean that you have to stay chaotic evil. Alignment never dictates what you can do, it only says what you have done. Now that is cleared up here is a simple test. What is the alignment of... A Police officer: The average Citizen: A Vigilante: The answer is simple. The Police officer is lawful good. He uses the laws of the country and city to arrest people and make them pay their debt to society. The Citizen is Neutral good. He wants to live is a place that is Good and follows moral and ethical principle, but he sometimes finds the laws impedes him, and he wonders why we spend so much on poor people. The Vigilante is Chaotic Good. He wants to uphold the morals and ethics of society but finds that the bad guys often slip through the cracks in the law. He takes it upon himself to protect the people from these criminals. That is the basic breakdown of the good alignment axis. What needs to be remembered is that any one of these people can change alignments, easily. The Police officer could be bought off by a local gang, and suddenly he drops to lawful neutral. The average citizen might find that his neighbors dog is annoying, barking at night and keeping him up. So he poisons its food, now he is no longer good, he is stepping towards true neutral. Maybe the citizen really goes crazy also kills the neighbor, hello neutral evil. It is possible that the Vigilante realizes that the cops are actually doing a pretty good job and decides to become an officer himself, leaving his masked crime fighting days behind him. Now he is Lawful good. Your alignment is not carved in stone, it is malleable and will change to reflect your actions.[/spoiler]
Actually it does not, every round after the first the creature effected only had to roll a ten or higher to beat the persisting effect. This can be found on page 279 of the PHB under saving throws.




What this means is the the effected monster has a 55% chance to make the save every round. If you do some statistics that makes the average time a little over a round. So on average you will only be dealing the continuous damage once, then the target will save and again wizards are back to square one.

Spell Focus and Orb of Imposition would like to have words with you.
Spell Focus and Orb of Imposition would like to have words with you.

Ok so once per encounter the the orb can really mess up a guy, ONE guy [if you have a high wisdom].

spell focus is a bit unclear as to weather it applies to the recursive saving throws, and not just the initial ones. So saying that it does, this means that the effected target has to roll a 12 or higher. let me see that is still a 40% chance of success. That brings the average save up to two rounds. Also it is a paragon feat so you have to be level 10 before you can use it. How does that help our wizard in the low level encounter described earlier?

Also if you try to use both remember, the bonuses do not stack.

Also this brings into the question the rules under saves for persistent saves.

Saving Throws
When you’re under a persistent effect or condition
that can be ended by a save (“save ends”), you have
a chance to escape the effect each round at the end
of your turn. You do that by making a saving throw,
which is a d20 roll unmodified by your level or ability
modifiers. A successful saving throw is called a save.

That unmodified part makes me wonder if maybe the modifications brought about by the orb, or the spell focus feat don't effect continuous effects like these ones.
Im sorry but ADEU is a French word for goodbye, not a combat system. You say, "Encounter Power" and I stop listening to you. [spoiler Have Played/Run] D&D 1st ed D&D 3.5 ed D&D 4th ed Shadowrun Star Wars SAGA Cyberpunk Interlock Unlimited Run.Net [/spoiler] I know my games, don't try to argue about them. [spoiler Alignment Explained] This is a very simple problem and I will outline it below. Their are two types of people Type 1: a lot of people (not all, but a lot) who play see alignment as "I am lawful good thus I must play lawful good" Type 2: a lot of people (not all, but a lot) who play see alignment as "My previous actions have made people and the gods view me as lawful good. The difference is subtle but it is the source of the misunderstanding. Alignment does not dictate how you play your character. All it does is tell you, the player, how the rest of the world views you, and your previous actions. Any future actions will be judged by their own merits. Say you're a baby eating pyromaniac. You are most likely chaotic evil. But one day you decide, "Hey all I really need is love." So you get a wife, have a kid, and get a kitten named Mr. Snook'ems. You become a member of the PTA and help build houses for the homeless. You are no longer chaotic evil. And just because you were once chaotic evil it does not mean that you have to stay chaotic evil. Alignment never dictates what you can do, it only says what you have done. Now that is cleared up here is a simple test. What is the alignment of... A Police officer: The average Citizen: A Vigilante: The answer is simple. The Police officer is lawful good. He uses the laws of the country and city to arrest people and make them pay their debt to society. The Citizen is Neutral good. He wants to live is a place that is Good and follows moral and ethical principle, but he sometimes finds the laws impedes him, and he wonders why we spend so much on poor people. The Vigilante is Chaotic Good. He wants to uphold the morals and ethics of society but finds that the bad guys often slip through the cracks in the law. He takes it upon himself to protect the people from these criminals. That is the basic breakdown of the good alignment axis. What needs to be remembered is that any one of these people can change alignments, easily. The Police officer could be bought off by a local gang, and suddenly he drops to lawful neutral. The average citizen might find that his neighbors dog is annoying, barking at night and keeping him up. So he poisons its food, now he is no longer good, he is stepping towards true neutral. Maybe the citizen really goes crazy also kills the neighbor, hello neutral evil. It is possible that the Vigilante realizes that the cops are actually doing a pretty good job and decides to become an officer himself, leaving his masked crime fighting days behind him. Now he is Lawful good. Your alignment is not carved in stone, it is malleable and will change to reflect your actions.[/spoiler]
i'm fairly certain that the bonuses do stack. One is a feat bonus, the other is derived from a class ability.
For the question regarding wealth... In previous editions, there were a number of DMs who just ignored the whole mess of material components, which is one of the reasons they wound up desperately overpowered.

In 4e, remember, you're part of a team... They're going to want you to cast rituals too, convince 'em to chip in. Suggest starting a party treasury, with a percentage of every treasure split dedicated to purchasing ritual components, healing, day-to-day expenses such as inns and stables, and agreed-upon rituals, to be shared among the party's wizard, cleric, and any other ritual casters.