Ok so im level 30 and i get... thats it

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Am i right in reading that a level 30 wizard or priest with Hundreds of spells to pick from and get 2 at will, 4 encounter , 4 daily and 7 utility. And thats it ? That doesnt seem that impressive.


That... is underwhelming and not very epic.. i always had the image of a wizard throwing dozens of diffrent kinds of spells but maybe thats just me.
Am i right in reading that a level 30 wizard or priest with Hundreds of spells to pick from and get 2 at will, 4 encounter , 4 daily and 7 utility. And thats it ? That doesnt seem that impressive.


That... is underwhelming and not very epic.. i always had the image of a wizard throwing dozens of diffrent kinds of spells but maybe thats just me.

Imagine the spells section of the previous PHB.

EACH class needs that if you want that.

Moreover, what does it add to the game? Not a whole lot.

Better to be clean, concise, and have a few good options than tons of meaningless ones and not very interesting ones with a few gems.
im more worried that your not flexible. Say as a wizard i pick fireball as an ecounter spell. Now i know were going to face say fire elementas who are immune to fire (for sake of argument say they are). Here i am a level 30 master of arcane,,, and sorry you cant change that.. your stuck with fireball. Meaning that if you use your three other encounters.. your hosed.. that fireball sits there. In 3.5 i could drop fireball for a haste or forcelance or something else.
Well you also have your At-Will, other Encounters like you said, Dailies and Utilities (which is where haste would be anyways, so you couldn't switch up fireball for haste).

Also got your Paragon Path and Epic Destiny Powers, as well as Action Points, and Powers from Items, and if you know your facing fire elementals then using your Spellbook (since were talking about Wizards here) to change up your Utility and Dailies to match.

Also if you were say a Archmage, one of your Daily Spells (which you can again swap in and out), becomes a Encounter one, and another Daily Spell you can choose each day to use twice per day.
Wait so you can change your dailys out? that would make a big diffrence ill read more

BTW what the hell

does 1[w] and 2[w] mean


I cant find it
im more worried that your not flexible. Say as a wizard i pick fireball as an ecounter spell. Now i know were going to face say fire elementas who are immune to fire (for sake of argument say they are). Here i am a level 30 master of arcane,,, and sorry you cant change that.. your stuck with fireball. Meaning that if you use your three other encounters.. your hosed.. that fireball sits there. In 3.5 i could drop fireball for a haste or forcelance or something else.

Who says a master of the arcane has a variety of tactics at his disposal? Mages having a few signature spells is very COMMON. If you took fireball, and you're fighting fire elementals, tough. Why SHOULD you have more options than members of another class? You shouldn't.
[W] = Weapons Damage, so 1[W] is normal 2[W] is times 2.
Better to be clean, concise, and have a few good options than tons of meaningless ones and not very interesting ones with a few gems.

However, it is likely that the number of options will increase as time goes on.
Am i right in reading that a level 30 wizard or priest with Hundreds of spells to pick from and get 2 at will, 4 encounter, 4 daily and 7 utility. And thats it?

No, you are not correct. At level 30, a Wizard would have 6 at-will, 4 encounter, 8 daily, and 14 utility spells. Also, this doesn't include the 13 Rituals a Wizard gets to learn for free.

EDIT: I forget the 4 at-will cantrips a Wizard gets for free at first level...

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No, you are not correct. At level 30, a Wizard would have 6 at-will, 4 encounter, 8 daily, and 14 utility spells. Also, this doesn't include the 13 Rituals a Wizard gets to learn for free.

EDIT: I forget the 4 at-will cantrips a Wizard gets for free at first level...

Well, yes, that's how many dailies and encounters they KNOW. They can still only use the 4/4/7 that everyone else can.

I like it that way, but I just don't want to mislead anyone.
Wait so you can change your dailys out? that would make a big diffrence ill read more

Daily Spells AND Utility Spells. You get two options for every available choice. Your Level 30 Wizard will be able to cast 4 Daily Spells and 7 Utility Spells, but he'll have 8 Daily Spells and 14 Utility Spells written in his spellbook. If he's got the Expanded Spellbook Feat, then he'll have 12 Daily Spells and 21 Utility Spells written in his spellbook (although he can still only memorize 4 Daily Spells and 7 Utility Spells a day).

In addition, the Wizard will also have access to Rituals. A Level 30 Wizard will know at least 13 Rituals. There're 49 Rituals in the PHB, total. So a Level 30 Wizard can potentially know the following:

4 Cantrips
2 At-Will Spells (three if he's human)
4 Encounter Spells
12 Daily Spells (can only memorize four a day)
21 Utility Spells (can only memorize seven a day)
49 Rituals
Who says a master of the arcane has a variety of tactics at his disposal? Mages having a few signature spells is very COMMON. If you took fireball, and you're fighting fire elementals, tough. Why SHOULD you have more options than members of another class? You shouldn't.

Canon for one and its not like a fighter.. gee i took x strike instead of Y strike.. were talking about powers


as it stands my bad ass mage with 35 intellegence gets 10 non utilty powers.. 2 of them i have had since first level.. that makes no damn sense. Where are the spell books, the Aha i do happen to have something to help but i must consult my books. The wizard stuff.. not the.. sorry guys.. i know i have the power of a demi god but i cnat change my fireball out
Daily Spells AND Utility Spells. If he's got the Expanded Spellbook Feat, then he'll have 12 Daily Spells and 21 Utility Spells written in his spellbook (although he can still only memorize 4 Daily Spells and 7 Utility Spells a day).

Actually that feat only applies to your daily spells. Utility will still be 14.
as it stands my bad ass mage with 35 intellegence gets 10 non utilty powers.. 2 of them i have had since first level.. that makes no damn sense. Where are the spell books, the Aha i do happen to have something to help but i must consult my books. The wizard stuff.. not the.. sorry guys.. i know i have the power of a demi god but i cnat change my fireball out

Many, really powerful utility spells are placed under Rituals. Of which you have unlimited amounts (as long as you got pages in your ritual books), such as level 28 Ritual; True Portal. Where you can teleport to anywhere you can name.

I'd also as a DM, at that level if you put in enough time and effort, be able to make your own rituals.
Who says a master of the arcane has a variety of tactics at his disposal? Mages having a few signature spells is very COMMON. If you took fireball, and you're fighting fire elementals, tough. Why SHOULD you have more options than members of another class? You shouldn't.

There is a big difference between opting to stick with a few signature spells despite knowing much more, and being forced to use the same few spells over and over again because you did not have access to more spells.;)
First off, fireball is a daily attack, so you will be able to change it out. Second, most things, even most fire things, don't have "Immune: Fire", they have "Resist: Fire X". I'm not going to go through all 300 some odd pages of the MM and count the fire resistances, but if your Wizard is a certifiable pyromaniac, a good DM will account for your general worthlessness against fire creatures (or your party will smack you a bit for not having variety; at least you can magic missile them).
Poe's Law is alive and well. Emerikol is right*
First off, fireball is a daily attack, so you will be able to change it out. Second, most things, even most fire things, don't have "Immune: Fire", they have "Resist: Fire X". I'm not going to go through all 300 some odd pages of the MM and count the fire resistances, but if your Wizard is a certifiable pyromaniac, a good DM will account for your general worthlessness against fire creatures (or your party will smack you a bit for not having variety; at least you can magic missile them).

I never did buy into the "Oh, my wizard uses only fire spells, so I cannot throw any fire resistant/immune foes at him".

Still, considering how little damage spells do in 4e, even resistance10 will dramatically reduce the amount of damage you can do. For example, at 5th lv, fireball deals 3d6+4 on average, or 15 damage.
I never did buy into the "Oh, my wizard uses only fire spells, so I cannot throw any fire resistant/immune foes at him".

Still, considering how little damage spells do in 4e, even resistance10 will dramatically reduce the amount of damage you can do. For example, at 5th lv, fireball deals 3d6+4 on average, or 15 damage.

that perfectly fine, they are not overpowered anymore compare to other class.
that perfectly fine, they are not overpowered anymore compare to other class.

That your 5th lv wizard can no longer kill 1st lv kobolds with a fireball will get some using to, I guess. But nothing I can't live with.:P
That your 5th lv wizard can no longer kill 1st lv kobolds with a fireball will get some using to, I guess. But nothing I can't live with.:P

He can.(If fireball is available at that level) Actually he can kill a bunch of them, as many little kobold minions as you can fit into the burst radius. :D
He can.(If fireball is available at that level) Actually he can kill a bunch of them, as many little kobold minions as you can fit into the burst radius. :D

I was referring to non-minion kobolds.

I am still trying to get used to the concept of minion actually. I understand the rationale behind them, considering how popular this concept is on television and books (where you see the heroes literally mowing down the foot soldiers by the dozen with every swing of their swords).

For example, at 1st lv, a kobold skirmisher will have ~ 30hp, which means I need to use magic missile a few times to kill him, even at lv20. Yet at higher lvs, I can clear out an entire horde of say, legion devil minions with a single thunderwave. Yet no one would dispute that the devil is stronger than a kobold.
For example, at 1st lv, a kobold skirmisher will have ~ 30hp, which means I need to use magic missile a few times to kill him, even at lv20. Yet at higher lvs, I can clear out an entire horde of say, legion devil minions with a single thunderwave. Yet no one would dispute that the devil is stronger than a kobold.

Bingo

This is not acceptable for me. There needs to be a level suggestion on the order of this: "If you are 10 or more levels higher than your opponent it is considered to have only 1 HP and gains the minion descriptor."
For example, at 1st lv, a kobold skirmisher will have ~ 30hp, which means I need to use magic missile a few times to kill him, even at lv20. Yet at higher lvs, I can clear out an entire horde of say, legion devil minions with a single thunderwave. Yet no one would dispute that the devil is stronger than a kobold.

That Devil Minion has higher attack bonuses and Defenses than the Kobolds, meaning that they have to get lucky to hit him or avoid being hit by him. En masse, they can take him fairly easily (making lots of attack rolls), but one on one he's a serious threat.

He's "tougher" because he's harder to hit and has better powers. The fact that he's a minion just means that he's not going to stand back up after he takes the first hit.
That Devil Minion has higher attack bonuses and Defenses than the Kobolds, meaning that they have to get lucky to hit him or avoid being hit by him. En masse, they can take him fairly easily (making lots of attack rolls), but one on one he's a serious threat.

He's "tougher" because he's harder to hit and has better powers. The fact that he's a minion just means that he's not going to stand back up after he takes the first hit.

But what is it about the minion which makes it so fragile? Assume both just stand there and voluntarily let you hit them. The kobold can still take 2-3 hits. The devil minion is kneeling over the moment you so much as sneeze on him.

Or to do away with the issue of defenses, lets use the fighter's cleave ability, which does not involve an attack roll, and thus makes AC irrelevant. The idea is still there - each legion devil is automatically falling to cleave's secondary attack, the 1st lv kobold isn't until the 4th or 5th hit.

It is said that the 1hp is supposed to be an abstraction, but surely suspension of belief can only go so far...
But what is it about the minion which makes it so fragile? Assume both just stand there and voluntarily let you hit them. The kobold can still take 2-3 hits. The devil minion is kneeling over the moment you so much as sneeze on him.

Or to do away with the issue of defenses, lets use the fighter's cleave ability, which does not involve an attack roll, and thus makes AC irrelevant. The idea is still there - each legion devil is automatically falling to cleave's secondary attack, the 1st lv kobold isn't until the 4th or 5th hit.

It is said that the 1hp is supposed to be an abstraction, but surely suspension of belief can only go so far...oh wait... what? The System is used for abstract combat? What is the "abstract" you speak of? I'm highly confused.

Fix'd it for you.
But what is it about the minion which makes it so fragile? Assume both just stand there and voluntarily let you hit them. The kobold can still take 2-3 hits. The devil minion is kneeling over the moment you so much as sneeze on him.

Or to do away with the issue of defenses, lets use the fighter's cleave ability, which does not involve an attack roll, and thus makes AC irrelevant. The idea is still there - each legion devil is automatically falling to cleave's secondary attack, the 1st lv kobold isn't until the 4th or 5th hit.

It is said that the 1hp is supposed to be an abstraction, but surely suspension of belief can only go so far...

It is a concept, players won't know the difference between minions and soldiers, so it makes resource management more crucial. Also if you ignore minions they can and will kill you.

I played KotSF at a local store, the guy playing a wizard decided to saunter up and whack it with his stick and couldn't hit the thing. He almost died because he didn't respect his local minion gang.
Fix'd it for you.

I honestly wish to say that clarified things for me, but sadly, I am still as confused as before...
to my understanding, if you're tough enough to be fighting demon minions, then you should definately be fighting kobold minions instead of actual kobolds. The way I understood how it works is once the party becomes too powerful for a certain monster, any encounters with them should be a minion from here on out, to represent how much more powerful than them you are at this point. As said previously, it is certainly an abstraction.
Minions should be used whenever you need to express a large number of creatures that are a threat to the players. With a ratio of 4:1, it is quite easy to have a wave of 12 creatures with some appropriate back up to throw at the party.

This isn't even really about the party being higher level then the threat. It's all about being able to throw out scenes like the Anibus Warriors scene from The Mummy Returns, or throwing out hordes of Stormtroopers. Minions should be used whenever large numbers of things are called for in the script.

....

To the original Poster, we are back to ground one. Seriously. From everything told, we are looking at Blue Box, not even 2nd Edition worth of material. This is a good thing. I really think the people who played wizards in the previous editions will eventually see this. This game is going to open up adventure space like you wouldn't believe, that couldn't be done with the old game, because the designers quite simply messed up on some parts.

I'm not saying 3E is bad. I love the game... the way I run it. However, I understand it's weaknesses, and the overflow of the number of spells was the second worse problem in the game.
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Better to be clean, concise, and have a few good options than tons of meaningless ones and not very interesting ones with a few gems.

QFT. Every high-level spellcasting PC I've ever seen would have 100+ spells in v3.5, with approximately 10 favorites that ever saw the light of day.

4E hasn't changed as much (in this regard) as some people might think. ;)
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I'm going to start replying to these thread with:

Rituals.
Rituals.
Rituals.
Rituals.
Rituals.
Rituals.
Rituals.
Rituals.
Rituals.
Rituals.
Rituals.
Rituals.

Because, seriously, 4.0 Rituals give your wizard so much more flexibility than the 3.5 magic rules.

You don't have fewer options -- you have MORE. The difference is that only a subset is appropriate for use in combat.
While I'm a big 4e buff, I can't agree that a 4e wizard has more options then a 3.5 wizard. It simply isn't true. Even if a wizard knew every ritual in the book and took the expanded spellbook thing, they'd still have fewer spells then most high level 3.5 wizards, and those spells would be generally less powerful.

I personally think that's a good thing, others might disagree, but more options for wizards in 4e then 3.5? I simply don't think that's true.
Even if a wizard knew every ritual in the book

Keep in mind that rituals don't have to be memorized. A 3.5 wizard has 40 memorizations available at level 20, including 0th-level spells but ignore bonus spells.

A 4.0 wizard has 49 (I think?) rituals available and can cast them at will.

Out of a 3.5 wizard's memorizations, there will be many many many duplicate copies of attack spells, cutting down his effective versatility. A 4.0 wizard gets an "infinite" copy of his basic attack spells and many castings of his powerful per-encounter spells. Even his uber attack spells (dailies) are memorized without conflicting against his uber rituals. A high level 4.0 wizard also has many ways to recycle his used spells.

And a 4.0 wizard's repertoire of rituals will grow in leaps and bounds as splatbooks are released. A 3.5 wizard is capped at his number of memorizations.

(I'm ignoring consumables like wands and scrolls because, while they do significantly buff a 3.5 wizard, I'm much happier to play in a world where you don't need to carry a king's ransom worth of consumables with you.)

Yes, there are a lot of things that a 3.5 wizard could do that a 4.0 can't. Partially this is for game balance. Partially this is to outsource specialties to future classes (illusions, charms, necromancy). But one thing that a 4.0 wizard is NOT lacking is versatility and interesting spells. They are just *different*, that's all.
But one thing that a 4.0 wizard is NOT lacking is versatility and interesting spells. They are just *different*, that's all.

Rituals take so darn long to cast. How is that considered versatility when you are no longer able to teleport during combat, raise your dead PCs as a standard action, gate in allies on a whim etc. Even knock takes 10 minutes to cast.
But what is it about the minion which makes it so fragile? Assume both just stand there and voluntarily let you hit them. The kobold can still take 2-3 hits. The devil minion is kneeling over the moment you so much as sneeze on him.

Or to do away with the issue of defenses, lets use the fighter's cleave ability, which does not involve an attack roll, and thus makes AC irrelevant. The idea is still there - each legion devil is automatically falling to cleave's secondary attack, the 1st lv kobold isn't until the 4th or 5th hit.

It is said that the 1hp is supposed to be an abstraction, but surely suspension of belief can only go so far...

I thought Cleave didn't damage minions?
I thought Cleave didn't damage minions?

I cannot be sure. There is no attack roll involved with cleave's secondary attack, so as far as the rules go, you neither hit nor miss.

Since minions are specifically worded to "never take damage on a miss", rather than "never take damage if you fail to hit them", this implies that they would indeed take damage from cleave. Since I don't make an attack roll, I cannot logically miss. That I don't technically hit either is irrelevant since that is not what the minion rules look out for.

Besides, cleave seems to have been designed for precisely that - to mow down minions.
I came up with an alternate Power Table. Here, take a look. It's similar to the way Tome of Battle does their powers in regards to readied/known. Also after you take a short rest you can change out your readied powers.

IMAGE(http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/104/powersgk5.jpg)
It would not be hard to extend the progression to 40. Or to infinity and beyond, really.
4E's a different beast. IMHO, a much better beast, but if you don't like it, it's not like your 3E books are going to disappear as soon as you buy a 4E book.

Re: minions. If your group doesn't like them, you don't have to use them. It adds a cinematic feel, but if you prefer the feel of fighting 5 normal enemies rather than 20 mooks, talk about it as a group and see what you feel like.

Re: powers. Yes, Wizards no longer are as decked out as they were before. Yes, choosing your spells doesn't eat up half a session anymore. Yes, Wizards don't go from shoddy crossbow at low levels to the only class worth being at high levels. That's awesome.

I do believe there's plenty of provision for switching out older powers for new ones, and the At-Wills gain in power.

As to Wizards being shafted if they memorise the wrong spells for the day's encounters? Yes, and this has always happened.
Re: minions. If your group doesn't like them, you don't have to use them. It adds a cinematic feel, but if you prefer the feel of fighting 5 normal enemies rather than 20 mooks, talk about it as a group and see what you feel like.

This answers nothing.

I am just wondering how you all rationalize the apparent disconnect here.
This answers nothing.

I am just wondering how you all rationalize the apparent disconnect here.

Hang on, I think I'm not following. What did you expect my one liner there to answer, and which is the apparent disconnect? It the apparent disconnect that a level 3 kobold non-minion can take more hits than a level 21 devil minion?