Racial Growth?

24 posts / 0 new
Last post
Is it me, or wasn't there talk from designers about not wanting your characters race to only matter on character creation? Did they talk about your race growing and expanding in ability as you leveled?

Am I missing something somewhere?

"The turning of the tide always begins with one soldier's decision to head back into the fray"

I've heard vague rumors that 4e is implementing something of the sort. Personally, I've always thought that it's ridiculous that the initial stat mods are basically insignificant past the first few levels. I mean... at first level even, the stat mods being +2's (as is most often the case) are essentially the same as a difference between an average roll and a good/bad one (if you use rolled stats as my group does).
I seem to remeber them metioning that you race would provide improvments as you gain levels, and thats how they eliminated level adjustments. Also, I think the idea was that you race would have a greater impact on your career then just at 1st level. I have not heard anything else about it, but I am interested to know (which I mainly why I clicked this thread lol)
Same here, sadly I see nothing even realted to, or remotely indicating any of this in the PHB.

This was actually one of the best ideas I heard from the developers leading in to 4e.

"The turning of the tide always begins with one soldier's decision to head back into the fray"

They actually promised that your race would stay relevant as you progress, which it does, via relevant racial powers, and the few racial feats (which should be expanded in the future). I think that the lack of racial feats falls under the problem of the general lack of feats (especially in the paragon and epic tiers....unless you're a wizard or a martial fighter :P )
Race stays relevant right now through racial powers and racial feats. I definitely see more racial feats in the future, possibly alternate racial powers and it wouldn't surprise me to see racial-based Paragon Paths / Epic Destinies.

Race choice is definitely more interesting/important that it was in 3.5 core.
I think the "growth" is talking about how some of the powers scale with you as you level. For example a dragonborn's breath weapon does more damage as you get higher in level. And of course there's the feats.
yeah I just hope more feats show up in later books.
yeah I just hope more feats show up in later books.

Yeah, so, maybe there will be 4E "Races of ..." books. Hopefully they will not be so, um, sad.
Hopefully they will not be so, um, sad.

Indeed.

"Elves are forest dwellers. They like forests and live in them, and do their laundry there, and invite their friends round. Friends like gnomes. And halflings sometimes. Elves and gnomes and halflings get on very well, which is to say they like each other and they all like forests. Did I mention that elves like forests? Well they do. They really like forests..."

And so on for 200 pages. With an extra race, like 'the wooden-tops' ot 'the knee-walking turkeys' thrown in for good measure. And maybe a prestige class or two, like the 'Alkan Foiled-Wrapped Pork Stock Warrior', or something equally 'niche', like the 'Scissor Wizard'.

I hope they don't try to squeeze too much cash out of us, and put the extra racial feats in a single volume. One volume for each power source is fine, but a seperate volume for each racial type will see too many poorly written ideas expanded to fill space.
Your racial improvements are not automatic. Some racial feats scale up, but the main bit of 'racial improvements' are the feats that can be taken later only by certain races.

Example!
Eladrin Soldier [Eladrin]
Prerequisite: Eladrin
Benefit: You gain proficiency with all spears and a +2 feat bonus to damage rolls with longswords and all spears.

Feywild Protection [Eladrin]
Prerequisites: Eladrin, fey step racial power
Benefit: When you use your fey step power, you gain a +2 bonus to all your defenses until the end of your next turn.


All of the races have feats akin to those.
Is it me, or wasn't there talk from designers about not wanting your characters race to only matter on character creation? Did they talk about your race growing and expanding in ability as you leveled?

Am I missing something somewhere?

to my knowledge every race does stay important throughout all levels,...

Elves having a 7 speed as oppose to 6, having a encounter ability to reroll a failed attack roll, always being proficient with long and short bows, their stat bonuses, their skill bonuses, ect ect these things are made more important in a game where gaining similar abilities is nearly impossible. Couple these with the facts that their are about 3 or 4 racial feats that they can get to expend on their already considerable abilities and you see what the designers meant by saying they would make picking a race mean something, this is true for all races, so more than others.
And here, I was hoping that they might actually develop races in some other way. After reading the Dragon #364 article about Warforged, and including the two Paragon Paths for them to develop into as alternates to Class Paragons, I'd like to see them take that idea further for the other races. In fact now that it's come up I'm a little let down that they didn't seek to incorporate that idea from the get-go.

Unless of course, they do so later, and plan on trying to squeeze ("And Squeeze! And Squeeze!" -- Vladimir Harkonnen) more funds from us with a Racial Paragons splatbook in the future.

For now, I'll go back to trying to develop my racial Paragon Path and Epic Destiny for Dragonborn...
And here, I was hoping that they might actually develop races in some other way. After reading the Dragon #364 article about Warforged, and including the two Paragon Paths for them to develop into as alternates to Class Paragons, I'd like to see them take that idea further for the other races. In fact now that it's come up I'm a little let down that they didn't seek to incorporate that idea from the get-go.

Unless of course, they do so later, and plan on trying to squeeze ("And Squeeze! And Squeeze!" -- Vladimir Harkonnen) more funds from us with a Racial Paragons splatbook in the future.

For now, I'll go back to trying to develop my racial Paragon Path and Epic Destiny for Dragonborn...

You mean like the Wizard of the Spiral Tower Paragon path which is exclusive to Eladrin?

sigh, listen most races already scale with levels but its not something that you see every level. Dragonborn's breath weapon for example increases in damage and to hit automatically, at every new tier, from 1d6 to 2d6 to 4d6 I believe (my book is in the other room), and at those same intervals +4 to +6, so in most cases a good deal of the idea does exist, but you can't as for broken things to be automatically put into a edition for you when its just launching. Asking for a race to have a class and paragon path and a epic destiny to be built especially for them at the launch of a new edition is kind of .. anyway, I wish you much luck on you're endeavors.
Asking for a race to have a class and paragon path and a epic destiny to be built especially for them at the launch of a new edition is kind of ...

...Kind of expectant after they already gave us not one, but two Paths for Warforged in the new Dragon article? I'm sure they'll likely create more of them for either purchasers of new books, or subscribers to DDI, to read.

Truth be told I actually did forget about the one class available exclusively to Eladrin, and Wizards to boot (though multiclass feats would obviate that second exclusive prerequisite)--that and now that I think about it, Wizards do seem to get a little extra lovin'. But that's beside the point.

Ahem. Where were we?

Ah, yes. Anyway, whether or not WotC develops Paths and Destinies for each race (and I'm willing to bet they will, so we can pay to see them :P), I'll still try my hand at it. It might be a raging success or a dismal failure, but I'm too impatient to just sit waiting :D
...Kind of expectant after they already gave us not one, but two Paths for Warforged in the new Dragon article? I'm sure they'll likely create more of them for either purchasers of new books, or subscribers to DDI, to read.

Truth be told I actually did forget about the one class available exclusively to Eladrin, and Wizards to boot (though multiclass feats would obviate that second exclusive prerequisite)--that and now that I think about it, Wizards do seem to get a little extra lovin'. But that's beside the point.

Ahem. Where were we?

Ah, yes. Anyway, whether or not WotC develops Paths and Destinies for each race (and I'm willing to bet they will, so we can pay to see them :P), I'll still try my hand at it. It might be a raging success or a dismal failure, but I'm too impatient to just sit waiting :D

I can see them making eventual race oriented paragon paths, it's not a impossibility. Just I'd rather see more things that open up the system for all kinds of concepts (and it does already in away considering how the new multiclassing system works.)
It seems that people don't really that "they" are Paizo, separate from WotC.
Oh dear. Sounds like they might be releasing 'race' books after all.
It seems that people don't really (know) that "they" are Paizo, separate from WotC.

If you're talking about the additional Warforged material appearing in Dragon #364, perhaps you don't really know that Paizo's licence to produce and publish Dragon and Dungeon magazines ended over half a year ago with Dragon #359 and Dungeon #150. Every Dungeon and Dragon since (all digital, by the way) have been 100% WotC produced.

Then again, maybe you meant something else. In which case clarification is called for.
Eywa ngahu
Oh dear. Sounds like they might be releasing 'race' books after all.

I wouldn't say race books, the Warforged stuff is DDI, and I wouldn't be surprised if thats the place to find more specific updates. I believe books at least for the foreseeable future will be mostly about entirely new things, you might see a few race write ups in new setting PHBs, and there is mention of new races in non setting specific handbooks like the PHB2 but until then we have to wait and see. I doubt we see race books if at all anytime soon.
If everything we'd all hoped to see for every class and race were included in the first Player's Handbook, it wouldn't fit in the trunk of your car to haul it home. I imagine we'll be seeing updates in Dragon, as we have for years, now. And, hey, not taking up space on my bookshelves, just a little on my hard drive, I can live with that. I'm viewing the book that are out now as what they are, the starting point for a new system. Give it time, see what comes out.
If everything we'd all hoped to see for every class and race were included in the first Player's Handbook, it wouldn't fit in the trunk of your car to haul it home. I imagine we'll be seeing updates in Dragon, as we have for years, now. And, hey, not taking up space on my bookshelves, just a little on my hard drive, I can live with that. I'm viewing the book that are out now as what they are, the starting point for a new system. Give it time, see what comes out.

Amen.
I sent a pitch to Dragon to let me write an article that would introduce about four new racial feats for each PHB race.
Half-elves and humans have been kind of hard though. Want to help?: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1047780
Think of 4th Ed in this context. They kept their word in most cases. They didn't keep their word in the expected context that they expanded to make everything greater and cool. They kept their word in the point of view that they downgraded everything to the point that either the old arguements no longer apply or that it is relevant when comparred to everything else.