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3 months ago ::
Feb 17, 2013 - 8:09AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Oct 11, 2002
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I can't help noticing that the difficulties of many checks are dramatically easier. Before anyone goes on about 4E skill bonuses I'll tell you right now I'm accounting for that. Just the basic value you'd need to roll on a D20 to succeed is very different. You go from needing a DC 20 4E skill check in one place (roughly a 15 on a D20 for somebody with +0 in the attribute) to needing a 10 on the D20 in D&D Next.
The most blatant example I have seen so far is on page 21. You go from needing 2 equal DC 4E skill checks (19 for both) to needing 2 attribute checks, one of which is dramatically easier (10 for one, 15 for the other). Why didn't they just make both of those checks the same since they were equally difficult in 4E.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 19, 2013 - 4:52PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2001
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I was wondering about that, too. There's hardly a DC above 10 and no skills mentioned. I wonder if the conversion notes assumed the background/skill module would not be used? Or, maybe they just want to 'softball' any potential single points of adventure failure (as skill checks can sometimes be) to keep the playtest focused on the mechanics we're testing?
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? Join the Old Guard of 4e"You want The Tooth? You can't handle The Tooth!" - Dahlver-Nar. "If magic is unrestrained in the campaign, D&D quickly degenerates into a weird wizard show where players get bored quickly" - E. Gary Gygax
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3 months ago ::
Feb 19, 2013 - 5:55PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Oct 11, 2002
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I was wondering about that, too. There's hardly a DC above 10 and no skills mentioned. I wonder if the conversion notes assumed the background/skill module would not be used? Or, maybe they just want to 'softball' any potential single points of adventure failure (as skill checks can sometimes be) to keep the playtest focused on the mechanics we're testing?
DC 10 is what they consider to be an easy task check, its maybe a little better than 50/50 for an average person. The problem I had was they converted moderate or hard 4e skill checks to easy D&D Next tasks. It's not that they assume no skills--the system is an attribute check system not a skill system. No perception checks, no athletics checks, no disable device checks. You don't make an arcana check, you make an intelligence check and if the topic is within the realm of arcane knowledge then the check is augmented by rolling the extra skill die. At most they might suggest some skills that you might allow a player to use to augment a particular attribute check because they're relevant.IMO the problem is just that they keep calling these "areas of specific expertise" skills, but that's a discussion for the playtest forums.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 20, 2013 - 11:25AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Jan 12, 2012
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There's an easy solution if you borrow from 0e: just ditch the skill checks. Roleplay it out. Leave the party a verbal clue and if they follow up then give it to them. "The path through he rubble seems smooth and worn down" or "the rocks hav e been moved out of the way." If the group follows up with more searching/looking questions then let them find the trap. It's a lot more interactive way with more opportunity for people beyond the roller to contribute.
Rolling the dice is boring. The goal is to succeed without having to roll. Rolling means you could fail. Failure oft-times leads to death.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 20, 2013 - 11:55AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Oct 11, 2002
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Different strokes for different folks. That's not relevant to this conversation though because its not about whether D&D Next should be a diceless system or not, it's about how the task DCs were converted in this season's D&D Encounters module.
It sounds like a great topic for you to bring over to the playtest forum though.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 20, 2013 - 12:31PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jun 18, 2003
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I do not know when the conversion packet was done at Wizards, so I don't know what state the D&D Next rules were in when the packet was worked on. The D&D Next rules (or at least one set of them) say that Easy tasks should be a DC 10 check and Moderate tasks should be DC 15. I think the Next packet for the season has mostly DC 10 and 15 checks, which seem appropriate to me. For the 4e adventure, I had DCs for skill checks all over the place, mainly based on that dreaded gut instinct. The person who did the adaptation probably just decided which tasks were easy and which were hard and gave the appropriate DCs.
In terms of the small issues with monsters not matching the text, it happens. I've had to adapt things for public play from old AD&D adventures into Next adventures with a limitation on what I could use. You do the best you can with the tools at hand, and you trust the DM to make it work. I noticed the discrepancy between the description of Sir Moonbrook and the Next stat block. For one group who I knew could handle it, I raised his armor class a little. For a group that had new players, I had him remove his armor to bathe in the pool, and thus have the lower AC. If any truly game-threatening problems come up because of the adaptation, I'd be happy to discuss ways to fix them.
Thanks!
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3 months ago ::
Feb 22, 2013 - 8:12PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2001
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There's an easy solution if you borrow from 0e: just ditch the skill checks.
The point of a playtest is to test the system. The system uses ability checks and DCs.
Roleplay it out. Leave the party a verbal clue and if they follow up then give it to them. "The path through he rubble seems smooth and worn down" or "the rocks hav e been moved out of the way." If the group follows up with more searching/looking questions then let them find the trap.
I certainly did that when I was a teenager who'd only been playing a year or two and the system didn't present me with any alternatives. "Roleplaying" was not the new thing D&D introduced that launched the hobby, making a game (with rules) out of it was. The hobby's come a long way since then, and most games are more complete than D&D originally was, with rules that cover a wider range of RP. When rules fail, falling back on freestyle is always an option, of course, but as its a playtest, it'd be important to note the failure in feedback.
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? Join the Old Guard of 4e"You want The Tooth? You can't handle The Tooth!" - Dahlver-Nar. "If magic is unrestrained in the campaign, D&D quickly degenerates into a weird wizard show where players get bored quickly" - E. Gary Gygax
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3 months ago ::
Mar 01, 2013 - 6:13AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Oct 11, 2002
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I do not know when the conversion packet was done at Wizards, so I don't know what state the D&D Next rules were in when the packet was worked on. The D&D Next rules (or at least one set of them) say that Easy tasks should be a DC 10 check and Moderate tasks should be DC 15. I think the Next packet for the season has mostly DC 10 and 15 checks, which seem appropriate to me. For the 4e adventure, I had DCs for skill checks all over the place, mainly based on that dreaded gut instinct. The person who did the adaptation probably just decided which tasks were easy and which were hard and gave the appropriate DCs.
Thanks. For the 4e difficulties I think they're good. I'd be happy with them if I were running 4e. They look like what I'd have come up with. I see ones that are clearly easy and meant for untrained people and ones that are meant to be easy/moderate for a trained person not an untrained person. I just feel like the conversion didn't maintain the same bracket of difficulty. I'm taking care of it as I convert each section (putting post its in the module).
I've done the same with enemies. I gave the goons in the inn clubs because they're taking people alive. I explained that Bertram put on a leather cuirass before coming down stairs with his buddies. The goons upstairs were using furniture not clubs to clobber the drunk wizard.
I love the module. I love the town. It's just the conversion doc that feels wonky, but I feel comfortable enough with the DM guidelines to adjust it.
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