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Feb 13, 2011 -- 1:55PM, TheGimper wrote:

Feb 13, 2011 -- 7:55AM, smerwin29 wrote:

Feb 11, 2011 -- 10:11PM, chitzk0i wrote:

Encounter 1.  The PCs are guarding a caravan as it crosses a stream.  Why are they all standing in a clump and watching?  Next time I guard a caravan, I will be clamoring to start outside the penalty box.

This is one of those areas where the designer cannot win.  If you do not put some sort of starting area on the map (and even if you take the time to describe it in the text), DMs complain that they do not know where the characters are supposed to be.  But when you do place a starting area on the map, inexperienced DMs force the players to begin in that area.

The best way to overcome this problem is to help the DM to become a better DM.  Take them aside after the game and explain that starting areas on maps are generally just guides.  Rather than force the PCs into the box when battles begin, ask the DMs if they can allow the PCs to show the DM where they would have been positioned, considering they were guarding the last of the caravan crossing the stream.

This is an age-old problem that can only be solved through education and experience, not through anything that can be added to or subtracted from the adventure.

Regards,

As one of those inexperienced DMs I think that's a cop out. You've abrogated your responsibility as an author of adventures. It shouldn't be up to the players to confront the DM. How hard can it be as an author for you to put a note in your adventure that player starting positions on the map are to be used as guidelines, not hard and fast rules? That's exactly the kind of information that would help us to become better DMs.

Perhaps you are correct.  I do not want to speak for Rodney, but as an adventure author, you often have a very limited word count.  I would hate to have to use part of that valuable word count to say over and over again: "The starting position is just a guide.  Let the players start wherever they want."  I would much rather learn it once as a DM, and then forever understand that D&D is a game where the adventure, the DM, and the players have equal rights and responsibilities in making the game fun.

And I did not mean to imply that anyone should "confront" a DM.  Try this.  After the game, when the other players aren't around, say to the DM, "Hey, that was a great game.  You really did a great job.  I loved it when [fill in the blank.]  That combat would have been a little more realistic if we hadn't have been forced to start right in the square.  I was discussing DMing on a forum the other day, and there was a great discussion about how using those 'PCs Start Here' boxes are really just guides." 

Most DMs I've played under love to talk about things like that, as long as it is done in good faith and with tact.  And it is probably better for everyone to just address the issue now rather than having it happen 12 more times.  :-)

Thanks for the discussion.  We all are or were inexperienced DMs once, so its these learning experiences that make us better.  I hope you enjoy the games.

Regards, 

Feb 13, 2011 -- 3:15PM, smerwin29 wrote:

Feb 13, 2011 -- 1:55PM, TheGimper wrote:

Feb 13, 2011 -- 7:55AM, smerwin29 wrote:

Feb 11, 2011 -- 10:11PM, chitzk0i wrote:

Encounter 1.  The PCs are guarding a caravan as it crosses a stream.  Why are they all standing in a clump and watching?  Next time I guard a caravan, I will be clamoring to start outside the penalty box.

This is one of those areas where the designer cannot win.  If you do not put some sort of starting area on the map (and even if you take the time to describe it in the text), DMs complain that they do not know where the characters are supposed to be.  But when you do place a starting area on the map, inexperienced DMs force the players to begin in that area.

The best way to overcome this problem is to help the DM to become a better DM.  Take them aside after the game and explain that starting areas on maps are generally just guides.  Rather than force the PCs into the box when battles begin, ask the DMs if they can allow the PCs to show the DM where they would have been positioned, considering they were guarding the last of the caravan crossing the stream.

This is an age-old problem that can only be solved through education and experience, not through anything that can be added to or subtracted from the adventure.

Regards,

As one of those inexperienced DMs I think that's a cop out. You've abrogated your responsibility as an author of adventures. It shouldn't be up to the players to confront the DM. How hard can it be as an author for you to put a note in your adventure that player starting positions on the map are to be used as guidelines, not hard and fast rules? That's exactly the kind of information that would help us to become better DMs.

Perhaps you are correct.  I do not want to speak for Rodney, but as an adventure author, you often have a very limited word count.  I would hate to have to use part of that valuable word count to say over and over again: "The starting position is just a guide.  Let the players start wherever they want."  I would much rather learn it once as a DM, and then forever understand that D&D is a game where the adventure, the DM, and the players have equal rights and responsibilities in making the game fun.

And I did not mean to imply that anyone should "confront" a DM.  Try this.  After the game, when the other players aren't around, say to the DM, "Hey, that was a great game.  You really did a great job.  I loved it when [fill in the blank.]  That combat would have been a little more realistic if we hadn't have been forced to start right in the square.  I was discussing DMing on a forum the other day, and there was a great discussion about how using those 'PCs Start Here' boxes are really just guides." 

Most DMs I've played under love to talk about things like that, as long as it is done in good faith and with tact.  And it is probably better for everyone to just address the issue now rather than having it happen 12 more times.  :-)

Thanks for the discussion.  We all are or were inexperienced DMs once, so its these learning experiences that make us better.  I hope you enjoy the games.

Regards, 

I appreciate that you often have word count limits. But you don't have to state it over and over in each encounter. One sentence in the introductory section of the module stating, "Note, PC starting areas are just a guideline. Feel free to modify it." would be sufficient.

Feb 13, 2011 -- 3:36PM, chitzk0i wrote:

Feb 13, 2011 -- 1:55PM, TheGimper wrote:

How hard can it be as an author for you to put a note in your adventure that player starting positions on the map are to be used as guidelines, not hard and fast rules? That's exactly the kind of information that would help us to become better DMs.

Almost the entire module is a guideline.  DMs should feel free to alter parts of the module to make sure they're satisfied with what they're running.  Underscoring that in the module could eat up a lot of space.  

As I stated above, it wouldn't have to eat up a lot of space. I'm talking about one sentence to help inexperienced DMs.

Feb 13, 2011 -- 7:53PM, Alphastream1 wrote:

It is a tough issue. Shawn and I have debated this before on the LFR forums.

On the one hand, it is true that you can't cover everything and that DMs should exercise judgment. Usually, the starting position won't hurt much and just helps as a guide. Even if forced, it is seldom a big deal.

On the other, sometimes it is a really big deal. It is because of this that I lean toward authors being specific. If the box is optional, I think authors should say that. The reason is that some encounters really need the box. I've written plenty of adventures where the challenge level is based on the monsters getting a bit of benefit due to the PCs' starting positions. I think writing "they must start in the box" when there is a box is more than a bit strange. I think it is better to do the converse and mention it is optional (or, in an adventure, say up front it is optional unless an encounter says otherwise and then note the exception).

The safest bet is that DMs will implement the box, so I think authors should make that default assumption.

All of that said, a fun game is the responsibility of the DM. There are countless ways in which the game can stray from fun and the DM should worry about that more than what the author did or did not clarify. If the box hammered the PCs and ended up being unfair and un-fun, then take the next round to have the foes move around and do imperfect things. Once the fun has reset, go back to more optimal tactics. It can be surprising just how awesome it is when the monsters carpet-bomb the PCs and then take a round to high-five each-other! The players and their PCs will be angry as all get out, but then get to settle the score and the RP as that happens can be fantastic. There aren't that many ways to make a fight feel "personal" and that can actually be one of them.

Yep.  Like I said, it is a no-win situation.  My personal preference is to not supply a start box at all.  Describe the scene in the adventure, and then let the DMs and players work out the starting positions on their own, as it should be anyway.  That's how I do it as a DM, and that's how I prefer it as a player.  If there is potential confusion, I like to put "PCs Approach from this Direction" on the map instead of a box.

Another thing I do as a player is never place my mini on a map until I know the situation.  If someone else tries to put me on the map, that is my cue to say to the DM, "Could you describe the situation?"  :-)

Regards,

Feb 12, 2011 -- 12:57PM, Alter_Boy wrote:

For Session 5, are the PCs supposed to be at level 2? And Session 9, are the PCs supposed to be at level 3?

I designed the encounters based on those assumptions, yes, but that doesn't mean you should artificially level someone up. I think it's perfectly fine to have a mixed-level party, even at this level, because I think that the difference between a level 1 character and a level 3 character is only significant in their hit points.