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3 years ago  ::  Aug 04, 2010 - 6:28AM #31
Festivus
Date Joined: Jul 28, 2005
Posts: 381
Here are my thoughts...

The first five sessions were BRUTAL.  I know there was a desire to impart a life of harshness, but those were flat out killers and drove a few folks away.  But 5 weeks of roaming in the desert?  Ugh.

The story is almost non-existent in the adventure.  Really, it's more like a series of encounters.  Season 1 had a story to it.  I am the DM of season 2 and I STILL don't get it beyond a really simple premise.

The season is long.  15 weeks is a lot to commit to, especially for DMs.  There should be a way to make a short adventure up, with more roleplay opportunities, that fits in a shorter time span.

So our numbers:  Season 1 I have 6 tables all full and people clamoring to get in.  Season 2 I have 4 tables, two of which are full, and some of those are waning.

Looking forward to Season 3 once we get  through Dark Sun.  I really, REALLY hope we aren't about to have 5 more weeks of desert roaming.
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3 years ago  ::  Aug 04, 2010 - 2:17PM #32
firesnakearies
Date Joined: Jun 11, 2008
Posts: 112
I started out running one night, and had six players.  Now I'm running two nights a week, and have up to twelve players each week.

So the interest is growing, here. 
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3 years ago  ::  Aug 09, 2010 - 11:11AM #33
Alphastream1
  • Dragon Slayer
  • If only he would apply himself
  • Dammit Jim, this is Star Trek, not D&D!
Date Joined: Jan 31, 2006
Posts: 4,631

Aug 4, 2010 -- 6:28AM, Festivus wrote:



The story is almost non-existent in the adventure.  Really, it's more like a series of encounters.  Season 1 had a story to it.  I am the DM of season 2 and I STILL don't get it beyond a really simple premise.

The season is long.  15 weeks is a lot to commit to, especially for DMs.  There should be a way to make a short adventure up, with more roleplay opportunities, that fits in a shorter time span.



Interesting and good points.

Fresh from Gen Con, I am really surprised at the duality of 4E. On one hand, the game can be super-fun. On the other, it can really lack story. When the combat is really bad, such as an adventure where the PCs are continually beaten up or lose their actions repeatedly (daze, stun, unconscious, etc.), then the game is a really bad experience (and made much worse without a good story).

When I look at a number of efforts by WotC, the story seems very weak and this compounds the problem and the way many think of 4E as a low-RP game. The reality is that 4E has as much RP as any system and people, whether new or experienced, have a better time when the story and setting are engaging. For some reason WotC seems to miss that and really try to emphasize the mechanics - when the mechanics already shine on their own.

I find Undermountain and DS to be about equal in story. They both front-load a lot of the reasoning for being there, then add some more at the end. Because DS is longer, it seems like a longer bit of time without a lot of story. The WotC way of having very short blurbs on the setup in one part of the mod (extremely short for the DS season) and then having a separate section for combat (the clear emphasis) worsens the situation - most DMs just skip to combat and run a sequential delve instead of a great RPG. I have no doubt that both authors love good story and setting, but the format drives the end result. 4E is a sound story/RP game and WotC should change their format and emphasis to show that.

I don't know for sure, but I wonder if part of this comes from WotC staff having great home campaigns. When they test 4E products they may be just fine with quick delve-like stuff because they can ad-lib at will and they are just playing a short piece. The DS podcast is a great example - they derail everything every five minutes and basically make it a home campaign fun-fest. They may not see the issues with what they produce.

I do agree that the season is a bit long. I am a huge DS fan, so I don't mind, but I can see others tiring after so many weeks. We work hard in our area to drive interest and add story and immersion, so we are growing all the time. I have no doubt that stores where the adventure is run as-is and that TPKd their tables are losing player interest. Stores that compensate likely see huge growth, but they expend a lot of energy to get there.

Follow my blog and Twitter feed with Dark Sun campaign design and DM tips!

Dark Sun's Ashes of Athas Campaign is now available for home play (PM me with your e-mail to order the campaign adventures).
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3 years ago  ::  Aug 09, 2010 - 11:22AM #34
Balerion
Date Joined: Nov 25, 2003
Posts: 145
Alphastream, what are you doing, specifically, to "drive interest and add story and immersion, so [you] are growing all the time"?

Also, do you pay your DMs? How do you recruit enough DMs to keep up with increased players?

 
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3 years ago  ::  Aug 09, 2010 - 10:02PM #35
Festivus
Date Joined: Jul 28, 2005
Posts: 381
By long I also meant 5 weeks straight of roaming the desert = we get it already.  Cool

Once the party hit the caves it was easier for me to breathe something into the adventure... at least I could describe something more than a menacing storm chasing them, and sand, and rocks, and more sand...  I haven't seen Chapter 3 yet, but I really hope it's not going back out there.

Season 1 did have story lead-ins for the following week.  Do a comparison of Season 1, pages 26 and 27 to Season 2, Chapter 1 book, pages 12 and 13.  There is a BIG difference to me in terms of how those things are laid out, and the information presented there that I would need to run a game. 
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3 years ago  ::  Aug 10, 2010 - 12:14AM #36
Alphastream1
  • Dragon Slayer
  • If only he would apply himself
  • Dammit Jim, this is Star Trek, not D&D!
Date Joined: Jan 31, 2006
Posts: 4,631

Aug 9, 2010 -- 11:22AM, Balerion wrote:

Alphastream, what are you doing, specifically, to "drive interest and add story and immersion, so [you] are growing all the time"?

Also, do you pay your DMs? How do you recruit enough DMs to keep up with increased players?

 



We don't pay our DMs. Honestly, the first session of Undermountain we were just saying out loud "wow, we will need more DMs" and players stepped up and said "hey, I might DM". The success has since attracted other people. We even have backup DMs willing to help, as well as volunteers that print things, do layout on handouts, etc. We share the load. I do reporting and prepare tracking sheets. I print out the warhorn list for who is signed up. Another person takes that list and signs in each player and helps fill tables. DMs that arrive early put the stuff on tables. Etc.

We do make sure they get a copy of the adventure. We give away extra posters and things like that. I worked with the store to get 20% off on D&D products on any encounter night or on pre-orders. We periodically do a raffle.

In terms of what we do to encounters, I've detailed them in my weekly write-ups. At the highest level, we just get the DMs excited. We do this by having the more experienced DMs share ideas on our DMs Google Group and then fielding comments/questions. This helps make sure DMs are prepped and also that they have some fun ideas. We used to have a quick DMs meeting before each session, but they really get it now and we have skipped that.

An example of what can be done is just to look at the room and monsters in an encounter and ask what the story is behind them. If the room is part of an elemental temple tainted by necrotic energy, then let's think of some ways to make that part interesting. Cover the walls in ancient elemental "prayers". Add a feature or two that can help the combat, such as braziers that when lit help counter the necrotic taint or elemental imbalance. Have monsters communicate with the party as they fight, helping to set the story for what is taking place. Honestly, that's almost as much fun for me to think through as running the actual tables. The DMs seem to share this. One of them was telling me how they added all these elemental aspects to an encounter, such as talking to an elemental spirit to help them open a door. Another DM made a torn map. Good stuff.

Follow my blog and Twitter feed with Dark Sun campaign design and DM tips!

Dark Sun's Ashes of Athas Campaign is now available for home play (PM me with your e-mail to order the campaign adventures).
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3 years ago  ::  Aug 10, 2010 - 7:42AM #37
Kedrith
Date Joined: Feb 15, 2010
Posts: 660
 Good to see Alpha's lfgs is good the DMs. Im lucky in that my lfgs does the same.  Every staff goes out of thier way to thank us and the 20% discount on any D&D products anytime doesnt hurt either.

Alpha you out of an Uncle's Games store too?
I'm second from the left in the picture.


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3 years ago  ::  Aug 11, 2010 - 11:01AM #38
Alphastream1
  • Dragon Slayer
  • If only he would apply himself
  • Dammit Jim, this is Star Trek, not D&D!
Date Joined: Jan 31, 2006
Posts: 4,631

Aug 10, 2010 -- 7:42AM, Kedrith wrote:

 Good to see Alpha's lfgs is good the DMs. Im lucky in that my lfgs does the same.  Every staff goes out of thier way to thank us and the 20% discount on any D&D products anytime doesnt hurt either.

Alpha you out of an Uncle's Games store too?



Nope, our store is Guardian Games. We had seven new DCI/RPGA cards this week. Pretty cool.

Follow my blog and Twitter feed with Dark Sun campaign design and DM tips!

Dark Sun's Ashes of Athas Campaign is now available for home play (PM me with your e-mail to order the campaign adventures).
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3 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2010 - 3:44AM #39
Dayffd
Date Joined: Jun 9, 2008
Posts: 68
Our flgs gives us space to play... that is it (and I'm NOT knocking it).

DMs are the big issues in my area, as in not enough of them... and a couple of the ones that will volunteer occasionally I'd rather not use due to poor player feedback.

I can keep 2 DMs going for Encounters (me being one) but have a problem when it comes to Game Days or some of the RPGA events at conventions around here.

One convention I'll be doing for a 3rd year in September runs all weekend... last year, we had 3 tables/slot.. and we have a lot more players interested this year (Encounters HAS added to the player base)... problem is... I have less DMs volunteering and I'm not running 5 tables in a row again.. burnt out on that last year. So instead of going up to 4 tables/slot.. I have to drop to 2/slot and even those are not DM filled...


Encounters is stabalized at 2 small tables... with new players dropping in/dropping off plus vacations hurting.

I do have extra interest for Season 3 (University will be back in and I know of a full table moving to the city)... but finding a 'good' 3rd DM for that table who will commit to TWENTY weeks... might be another issue...
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3 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2010 - 9:08AM #40
Alphastream1
  • Dragon Slayer
  • If only he would apply himself
  • Dammit Jim, this is Star Trek, not D&D!
Date Joined: Jan 31, 2006
Posts: 4,631
Some thoughts on getting DMs:
  • Do ask all of your players. I was really surprised that 3-4 of our players over time asked us to be DMs. Partly this is because we made DMing look cool.
  • Offer your DMs something. The drink cozies, copies of the mod, discount of x at the store, raffle for some old product, etc. This can be a good incentive and a way to keep DMs feeling happy. I've got a box of cardboard minis/tokens and some other stuff another DM gave me that I will take to the store and give to DMs today.
  • Try sites like Meetup, ENWorld, and other places to request DMs. A lot of times Meetup can have DMs looking to start a home campaign. This can be a way for those DMs to sharpen DM skills and meet players. They may find a home campaign on the side via DMing for Encounters.
  • Run a DMs list and drive what you like in terms of quality. You can see from my recent posts an example of the kind of guidance we provide to DMs. We read each encounter, look for possible issues, dream up enhancements, and send that to DMs. We also provide really clear guidance in terms of our goals - they know TPKs are to be avoided and that the job is only done well if players are having fun. This avoids the worst DM issues. We also try to stress story. We are fortunate that our DMs really seem to like that aspect and do some great dramatic deliveries and story expansion.
  • Worst case, consider running on two nights and having DMs do the work twice. This may require some other compensation. Compensation can be arranged with the store if everyone puts their heads together. For example: organize a discount for players that pre-order new D&D book X. DMs promote the book by handing out a flier about it and the discount. In exchange for the marketing/promotion, DMs get a discount on D&D stuff. The idea being for everyone to win. I organized a raffle for any player that showed me a receipt in a two-week period and I saw 12 store receipts for $20+. That is meaningful to the store and helps everyone.
Follow my blog and Twitter feed with Dark Sun campaign design and DM tips!

Dark Sun's Ashes of Athas Campaign is now available for home play (PM me with your e-mail to order the campaign adventures).
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