Community

This is the place to share your ideas and development suggestions on the Dominating Warlord.

Should gain proficiency with whips.

I'd note the following issues:
Intimidating Stare doesn't have either an inherent tier-based bonus to hit or use a weapon/implement. Seems a bit too similar to Opening Shove. I'd like to see something along the lines of "Do +Cha damage if target moves out of the square you slid him into before the end of your next turn." - aka too frightened to move.

The other attack powers seem very controller-y, not along the lines of a Leader. How about powers that do Leader things, but when the ally takes advantage of it, bad things happen to the enemies. Example:

"Fear and Doubt"
"One of your allies is suffering from the ongoing effects of an enemy. You show that enemy how futile his actions are and it is wracked with pain..."
Encounter: Martial, Fear, Weapon
Target: One Creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1w+Str.
Effect(on hit): One ally you can see can make a saving throw at +Cha to the roll. If ally saves, target takes ongoing 5, save ends

I really like the Filling the Void power.

Right off, dominating presence looks too powerful. Tactical presence gives half intelligence as a bonus to hit for one attack, this is effectively giving half wis or cha as a bonus to all attacks against a creature for one round.


Crippling strike looks potent, but it does nothing on a miss- a rarity for dailies, and I know my group avoids those. Reliable or half damage on a miss would be the obvious fixes; I think I'd go with half damage since the chance to immobilize several monsters on a hit seems strong.


Line in the sand feels very weak to me. Automatic charisma damage is nice, and being able to stop a monster that tries to leave is good, but the opportunity attack is only doing 1W. So, a creature that starts in the line would at worst, if it tried to move away, suffer 1W+cha mod, giving this encounter power less damage than a basic attack of 1W+str. I think I'd let the Opportunity attack granted by the line do 1W+str

I really really like this concept, and that of Insightful presence from MP2.  But alas, to me, they (and Tactical Presence) suffer from the same problem of rounding half a modifier.   Mathematically, given the "round down" assumption, you need at least a 14 in the score to get a +1, or an 18 in a secondary stat to get a +2, 22 to get a +3, 26 to get a +4, 30 to get a +5. 

Assuming you also wanted an 18 in your attack stat, you'd only be able to get that high if you had perfect racial bump stat synergy.  Assuming that doesn't happen for most warlords (dragonborn and longtooth shifters are, I believe, the only races gaining a +2 to both str and either wis or cha),  the highest you could legally get a secondary stat in 22 point buy is 17, provided a racial bump to get STR from 16 to 18.  In order to get that, your other scores will be 8, 10, 10, 11 before racial bumps - doable, but a bit min-maxy to me. Assuming that you make that sacrifice to get to the mathematically highest possible 17 secondary stat and bumped the secondary stat at every opportunity, you'd get to 18 (and thus +2 to Dominating Presence) at 4th level, 19 ( for +2) at  8th, 20 (for +2) at 11th, 21 (for +2) at 14th, 22 (for +3) at 18th, 23 (for +3) at 21st, 24 (for +3) at 24th, and 25 (for +3) at 28th.  If you had perfect stat synergy and started with an 18 in both Str and Wis or Cha, you could bump it up to 26 (for +4) by 28th.  Alternative methods would be to get an Epic Destiny with a +2 to the secondary stat, but starting with 18 in the secondary stat and getting the right ED for this purpose would not combine to get it to the 30 needed for a +5 by 28th level.  

So, the highest this bonus could reasonably ever be is +4, and more likely it would be +3 at 28th level for all but the most specialized of builds.  I just played an Insightful warlord for a one-shot delve, and I can say that that +1 felt pretty marginal at 3rd level.   One-half level + modifier would be too much at higher levels, but I don't think it would be too powerful to just make the benefit equal to your modifier rather than one-half the modifier. Of course, you'd have to change Improved Insight and a presumable equivalent Improved Domination in this case.  From the perspective of someone who obviously knows more about the math behind the system than I do, does this make sense?

I'm honestly conflicted - I realize that the math of the game works more or less on the margins, so a +1 bonus to a d20 roll is, assuming proper items for level, etc, roughly as powerful at 30th as it is at 1st.

Of course, since srhall79 thinks it's maybe too powerful (and cited good reasons for doing so) and I wonder if it's too weak, maybe it's just right.

Feb 23, 2010 -- 6:39PM, aoirorentsu wrote:

I really really like this concept, and that of Insightful presence from MP2.  But alas, to me, they (and Tactical Presence) suffer from the same problem of rounding half a modifier.   Mathematically, given the "round down" assumption, you need at least a 14 in the score to get a +1, or an 18 in a secondary stat to get a +2, 22 to get a +3, 26 to get a +4, 30 to get a +5.

My very first impression was that half values seem weak. Considering charisma or wisdom will be the warlord's secondary stat, as you say, it takes a long time for the bonus to improve. Just like with tactical presence. From there I started thinking that a penalty to defense is the same as a bonus to hit and came out thinking this was very overpowered compared to tactical presence. Could be tactical presence is just very underpowered- I know in my group, resourceful and a chance at intelligence+half level bonus damage is preferred over tactical's half-int bonus to hit.

I guess I'd want to boost tactical before boosting dominating. Just off the top of my head, maybe tactical gives intelligence modiifer as a bonus to hit, +2 at paragon, +4 at epic, while dominating is a flat penalty to defense equal to charisma or wisdom (making tactical more effective since only one attack benefits from it).

Overall, I love this concept.  I have a player who like to use Intimidate in strange ways, and this build is right up his ally.  The controller feel definitely comes through with the movement and zone powers.

I'd like to see more CHA based powers. STR v. Will makes sense from a mechanical point of view, since STR is the Warlord's base stat, but it doesn't seem to fit logically. As someone mentioned above, there is no way to get a bonus for this power, such as from weapon or impliment modifiers.  Perhaps make the attack STR + CHA vs Will?  This would give the bonus that this power lacks, but the attack made by your ally is still based off whatever weapon they are using.

The first thing to really jump out at me was the Daily Power lacks a Miss or Effect clause.  This makes it a very undesirable choice.  Add one of those, or make it Reliable.

Culling the Weak is going to be incredibly powerful. Intimidate checks to force a foe to surrender will be much easier with this.  Its only an encounter, but if an enemy has special powers that only kick in once they are bloodied, this could make that monster a bit less enjoyable for the DM to run.

Dominating Presense adds more of the Controller feel.  But it does seem overpowered.  I might say that it reduces the defenses for the next attack against that enemy, instead of making it last for an entire round.

So it looks like right off the bat, a few people think that Dominating Presence is too powerful, and I would have to agree that it's more powerful than similar warlord abilities. Giving an enemy a negative to defenses for the next attack against him is a good solution if we want to stay in the same vein, but what do people feel about different options that fit the theme. Something like:

Dominating Presence: Whenever an ally spends an action point, slide one enemy that ally can see a number of squares equal to your Charisma modifier.

This brings an advantage to the team as a leader is supposed, scales really well as it's based on bonus instead of half a bonus, and still has controller feel of moving the enemies around. But does this move too much? Would a pull or a push be more balanced? And is it actually a more fun and interesting option than a bonus to attack/negative to defenses?

Are there any other mechanics that sound fun for this ability that aren't bonus to attack, penalty to defenses, or moving the enemy?

Intimidating Glare is close to Opening Shove - it's actually the power I was looking at when I wrote up glare. I like the idea of the enemy taking damage if he moves out of the spot on his next turn. Would this be in addition to the free attack that the ally gets?

Line in the sand might seem weak when you think of it affecting only one enemy, but keep in mind the secondary it gives you is an opportunity action. This means that any enemy that moves out of those squares can be attacked, so it has the potential to deal more overall damage. With a reach weapon you can actually make a 5 long wall and attack into any square from 2 squares away. Does it make it worth it though? Not sure, but I wanted to point that out.

We can definitely add a miss effect on to cripplling strike. What does everyone feel about half damage and the target is slowed until the end of its next turn?

I like that Fear and Doubt encounter power a lot! It fits the theme, seems fun and interesting, and has a neat twist. Does anybody see anything they don't like or would want to changed about Mommy_was_An_Orc's Fear and Doubt.

As to these attack powers seeming controller-y, that's the point. The idea is that we already have a lot of warlord powers that support the leader role really well. If we augment those with some new powers that focus on controlling options, a player should be able to pick a good balance of both for the character he/she is making. However, I can see wanting to keep them with some kind of leader benefit as well. What does everybody think - Should we focus on having some leader effects in all of the powers we're making here?

One other possibility for the Dominating Presence would be a penalty to saving throws (perhaps increased if it's saving throws against fear effects), combined with more encounter and daily powers with a save ends duration. It works well in conjunction with controllers, who will also be dishing out plenty of status effects that can really mess up an enemy. It also answers the small problem of warlords working better with martial classes than others.

Intimidating Glare needs some help in order to hit, and it also is a little strange in that it provokes opportunity attacks. I'd redo it as affecting a creature within close burst 5, and at level 21, within close burst 10. I'd also give it the weapon keyword. Rattle those sabers (more on that thought later).

Line in the Sand isn't up to snuff, even when one considers that it can be encounter-level auto-damage. A secondary ability modifier is enough to pop minions, but it won't seriously affect a fight in any other fashion. The extra attack is dependent on the placement of the wall and where your allies are. It doesn't even work if you make the wall too far away without a reach weapon, since you wouldn't be in position to make the attacks when they trigger. In fact, without a reach weapon, an enemy can be in the wall and attack you, so it needs rework (or an acknowledgement that it's only usable when wielding a reach weapon).

Your suggested miss effect works for Crippling Strike, but the power's getting wordy at that point. I'd make it Reliable. That's more of a martial shtick than other power sources, and I'd rather have a large effect half the time, all the time than a 50/50 shot of the large effect or a mediocre effect (it's basically a melee version of Ray of Frost with the proposed miss line).

Culling the Weak worries me, because intimidating bloodied enemies is usually either too good (requiring DM intervention to explain no, his main villain isn't going to die at half his hit points because you have an obscene Intimidate modifier) or bad enough that it's not used (the standard action is better served to attack the enemies that remain). The best fix I've found is that intimidating to surrender doesn't work on any enemy which gets action points (i.e. elites and solos). That's moving somewhat abreast from the power itself, but this power aids the standard rule a bit too much.

Filling the Void looks ok, though a little underpowered compared to some of the options we've seen before. Knight's Move gives any sort of move action at level 2; Re-orient the Axis gives a party-wide shift of Int modifier squares. Both of them also cost a move action, so they make for decent comparisons. I'd have it be the full Wisdom or Charisma modifier. You're still getting automatic forced movement on an enemy, so it's got its own thing going for it.

Fear and Doubt also looks interesting, though I'd put it at level 3. It's similar to Inspiring War Cry (lower damage, but grants a bonus to the save and the ongoing damage kicker). It's a little weaker compared to IWC because the save-granting, if I understand right, is still only on the hit, but it's a little too good for level 1.

Finally, getting back to the saber-rattling, I think that the Dominating Warlord should get more rattling powers. Don't just save them for rogues and the rare fighter power. There should be more encouragement for a Dominating Warlord to train in Intimidate.

Intimidating glare - I feel the power should state "If the enemy moves closer to the warlord on his next turn he takes damage. It seems to make more sense for the flavor of the power as the enemy has to overcome his fear to advance taking something out of him.

I like the idea of making it a Charisma vs Will attack since strength has nothing to do with intimidation and breaks the feel of that dominating presence. He might look all buff and stuff with his high strength score but it's his presence on the battlefield and force of personality that makes him fierce.

To that point I would put in a special effect stating if the Warlord is trained in Intimidate you gain a +2 to the attack roll.
The flavor text says stumble back so why not make it a push. Also makes more sense for the powers flavor and forced movement isn't required so this is actually a ranged version of commanders strike which deals a little less damage and requires you to hit with it but also has some controller aspects to it. So all in all your trading damage for control.

Adding the idea of using intimidate as a booster to this power moves towards the idea of skill based powers or skill enhanced powers.

Intimidating Glare     Warlord Attack 1
You glower at your opponent, causing him to stumble back and into your allies attack.

At-will * Martial, Fear
Standard Action  Ranged 5
Target: One enemy
Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Special: If your trained in intimidate you gain a +2 to the attack roll.
Hit: Push the target 2 squares
Effect: One ally you can see makes a basic melee attack against the target as a free action and if the target moves closer to you on its next turn it takes damage equal to your charisma modifer psychic damage.
Special: This power counts as a ranged attack.


I've come to believe Mechanics should reflect the flavor of the game so if you can do so then do so.

I like the build so far...

One thing missing and would be unique is that a Dominating Warlord needs a power that dominates a creature. Obviously a very powerful effect so I'd think a higher level encounter or daily would be in order.

You Are Mine     Warlord Attack 5
You point out a foe on the battle field and command him to do your bidding.

Daily * Martial, Fear
Standard Action  Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. Will
Hit: Slide the target a number of squares equal to CHA and the target is Dominated (save ends). If the target attacks while dominated by you it gets a bonus to damage equal to your CHA.
Miss: Slide the target a number of squares equal to CHA and it takes damage equal to your half your intimidate modifier in psychic damage.

Another option...


Minion Rebellion     Warlord Attack 3
You pick out the weak across the battlefield and turn them against their master.

Encounter * Martial, Fear
Standard Action  Area Burst 3 Within 10
Target: Each Minion in Burst
Attack: Strength vs. Will
Hit: Slide the target a number of squares equal to CHA and it is dominated until the end of its next turn.

One other thing to add... this build would seem like a good choice for a ki focus user. I can see them pulling from their inner martial powers to make them more intimidating.

Line in the Sand    Warlord Attack 1
You cut a shallow line in the ground with the tip of your weapon, daring all foes to cross it and face you.
Encounter * Martial, Fear
Standard Action  Area wall 5 within 2
Effect: You create a wall 5 squares long and no more than 1 square high that lasts until the end of your next turn. Any enemy that starts it's turn in the wall or enters the wall takes Charisma modifer psychic damage. You gain the following attack until the end of your next turn.

Opportunity Action   Melee Weapon
Trigger: A creature moves into a Line in the Sand square or off a Line in the Sand squares and closer to you.
Effect: Shift one square and make the following attack.
Target: The triggering creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] damage and the target's move ends.

I think adding shifting a square and making the trigger moving into the line fixes some of the problems this power has with not being effective. Shifting allows a player to use a non reach weapon, which some warlords might actually have, and makes it more likely to control the area. Remember this powers purpose isn't neccesarily to deal damage, and I think people get caught up in damage output, but to control the battlefield. Not only does this power have a lot of control aspects to it but it even acts like a fighter power in a lot of ways and would be ideal for a multi class fighter/warlord.

Crippling strike could be a much more versatile power if you make the attack melee or ranged. It also makes it more interesting. Since it's an all or nothing daily power without a half damage effect or anything why not just make it 3[W] damage. I don't really think it breaks the design philosophy since it isn't reliable and it doesn't have a miss effect.

Culling the Weak has a really powerful combat application so I would agree with Herid Felon's thoughts on the power. To fix it I make it a daily power. It can have that "end the encounter in one fell swoop" die roll which I don't think is a bad mechanic but if in every combat you can just get a bad guy to surrender that might be a little silly. Plus it's way cooler RPwise if you can have that moment where your warlord gets really angry, up in the bad guys face, spittle flying from his mouth, and then whispers

"Yeild or die"

Filling the Void. I like this power. I think it's pretty cool just the way it is. Good flavor meets mechanics kinda power and it's an encounter. I love encounter utility powers.

Dominating Presence I think is fine. It's a powerful choice, but I don't think it's over the top. Encourages players to stagger their AP use, which goes a bit counter to creating nova turns with a warlord, so there is definitely a choice to be made.

Intimidating Glare has no Weapon Keyword. As such, it currently can never get enhancement bonuses, and fails at higher levels. It should be Str+3/6/9. I'd remove the special line. It's strong enough on its own to not require being a basic attack.

Line in the Sand needs weapon keyword. Damage from the wall should be Cha/Wis if it's geared specifically for this build. Looks to be a very cool power.

Crippling Strike needs to be Reliable. I'd ditch the secondary attacks for an Aftereffect: Until the end of the encounter, every time the target shifts, you or one ally adjacent to the target may make an opportunity attack against the target. (On second thought this might be better as a level 5 daily, I'll have to ponder).

Culling the Weak is good as is. For psychological reasons, I prefer this power to remain encounter, rather than be changed to daily. If it's daily, people are going to try to use it to "win" solo encounters, and get PO'd when it fails (due to actual failure or DM caveat). As an encounter power, it will work about every other encounter to take a bloodied target out of combat toward the end of a fight, and leaves the DM freer to have it not work on the occasional solo or elite without feeling bad. Something like Beguiling Tongue can already pretty much do this (minus breaking the language barrier), so it's not out of line with other similar powers.

Filling the Void could suffer to be 1+ half stat for the slide to become a more usable power and could be bumped up to a level 6 power, otherwise it's clashing a bit with Knight's Move which is a good power as is, but provokes opportunity attacks. Of course I often use Knights move to have people stand up or open a door, or other miscellaneous actions, so they might fill different niches. Still, I'd rather see this as a level 6 power with a small boost to slide distance.

I'm interested in seeing more of the Controller aspect that is coming out of this build. I personally think the warlord can really fit the bill for a charismatic, fear/intimidation-based controller.

The base Warlord abilities allow it to perform the function of a Leader, so a Control build to choose powers from won't make him inept.

From a pure player perspective, I would have chosen a Dominating Warlord theme for my Tiefling Warlord, Mal Kazar if I had the option.

As for contributing,

A.  I think Intimidating Glare should get the Weapon keyword, just like Commander's Strike and Opening Shove have. It solves the accuracy problem.

B.  Line in the Sand sounds great as an idea! Would there be a problem with letting you make a basic attack as the Oppy when this specific movement provokes? Would it get too powerful when taking a reach weapon like a glaive and Heavy Blade Opportunity into account?

C.  Here is another thing to consider. If we open up some of these powers to be used with both melee and ranged weapons, this build also provides support for the new ranged Warlord options in Martial Power 2. In addition, with ranged options, this build would be able to cover the ranged aspect of a martial controller.

What do you think?

-Sammy!

Line in the Sand    Warlord Attack 1
You cut a shallow line in the ground with the tip of your weapon, daring all foes to cross it and face you.
Encounter * Martial, Weapon, Fear
Standard Action  Area wall 5 within 2
Effect: You create a wall 5 squares long and no more than 1 square high that lasts until the end of your next turn. Any enemy that starts it's turn in the wall or enters the wall takes Charisma or Wisdom modifer psychic damage. You gain the following attack until the end of your next turn.

Opportunity Action   Melee Weapon
Trigger: A creature moves into a Line in the Sand square or off a Line in the Sand squares and closer to you.
Effect: Shift one square and make the following attack.
Target: The triggering creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] damage and the target's move ends.

I would agree with Mengu74 after thinking about it that Culling the Weak is probably good as is. You still have to bloody the enemy before you can use it anyways and leaving it as an encounter power lets it have more RP applications instead of being saved to be the end the solo fight power.

I really like the secondary effect of crippling strike. It's got so much flavor to it. You basically murder a dude and make all his friends take pause, drop their jaws, and maybe even vomit because of the ugly thing you just did to their buddy. Not only that but their isn't enough all or nothing daily powers. I the tension of roll and do something awesome or fail. That's why I thought it should be bumped up to 3[W] damage since it had a possibility for total failure. Making it reliable takes away that tension.

just some random thoughts...

Echo the idea of imposing save penalties on enemies; in fact, manipulating saves could crop up in a couple of ways with this idea - penalizing enemy saves, boosting friendly saves (maybe this could replace the warlord intiative bonus: all allies within 10 who can hear and see you get a +1 to all saving throws??).

To push the 'controller' aspect, a power - perhaps a stance - which creates a burst-2 zone around you which is difficult terrain to enemies (kind of a fear aura).

An encounter attack which causes the target to lose their standard action on their next turn? Perhaps a Str v Will at range, and might even take less than a standard action to execute.

An attack which causes an enemy to lose an immunity for one turn. Perhaps as an action-point bonus, when you use an AP to attack, one target of your attack loses one immunity until the end of your next turn (smells like a paragon ability to me).

(added 2/27) An ability, power or feat: when one of your allies who can see and hear you spends an action point, they may immediately make a saving throw against every effect on them which a saving throw can end.

Because I like interesting ideas... a utility power for the dominating warlord which causes an effect that lasts until the end of the originator's next turn to become (save ends). Not sure if that's too metagame, but I think there should be some way to explain it in-game.

My first impression: Ooooh boy, this thing needs -work-.  Going down the list...


Dominating Presence: I think it's too much, as-written, and too different from (and similiar to, at the same time) other Commanding Presence options.  DP (*shudder*) gives a penalty instead of a bonus, applies to the party instead of the character using the AP, lasts for a full round instead of until the current turn, and is generally a mess.  In addition, while the current errata make it so that a party with two warlords can't stack the benefits of two Tactical Presence features, DP would effectively allow the same end result.  I'm also not sure why it allows the use of Wisdom (unless that's just a "thing" now - which would seem silly) - thematically it doesn't particularly fit.

I would change it to:

• Dominating Presence: When an ally who can see you spends an action point to take an extra action and uses the action to make an attack, if the attack hits the target is immobilized (save ends) in addition to any other effects.  The target takes a penalty to its next saving throw against that effect equal to your Charisma modifier.  This is a Fear effect.
  

It is significantly different, yes, but I feel like it captures the flavor invoked in the description of the class without making a general mess of all things Warlord.  It's also interesting - enough so that I wouldn't mind having one of these guys hanging around, making the whole party able to "control" when absolutely need-be.

Intimidating Glare: This power, to me, overlaps far too much with other existing Warlord powers - either the classic Commander's Strike, or Opening Shove, or the more recent Direct the Strike.  Personally, I'd chuck the mechanics and start from scratch with the flavor.  Maybe something more like...

• Menacing Drill; Fear, Martial, Weapon
• You glare menacingly at your foe, causing him to stumble away from your feint.
• Standard Action; Ranged 5
• Attack: Strength vs. Will
• Hit: Strength modifier + Charisma modifier damage.  You push the target 1 square, and the target grants Combat Advantage until the end of your next turn.

I didn't list a 21st level scaling (because I don't know what I'd do), but this would give a power with the same flavor, but distinct mechanics.  There's no reason to not have Strength as the primary attack stat, and there's really no reason to not allow the Warlord to add his weapon ability to the attack.  In a more perfect world, one could include a feature with this build that allowed the Warlord to use weapons as implements (merely gesturing with the weapon, rather than attacking with it), and then would have this power (and others like it) be implement powers.  Still, I don't think it's a necessity.

Line in the Sand: Oooh boy, this one has issues.  First off, I think Wall range is a big mistake - the keyword invokes a very particular mechanic, and it just doesn't work well with most martial powers (in my opinion).  I just don't think it makes a lot of sense, here, when there are other options that work better and are more clear.  I'd make it a Close burst power (probably 1).  It's effects, too, just aren't very "leader-ey" - if this power is going to be on the Warlord, I would rewrite it to match the class's mechanics better.  Maybe something like:

• Line in the Sand; Fear, Martial, Weapon
  
• You cut a shallow line in the ground with the tip of your weapon, daring your foes to cross it and face you.
• Standard Action, Close burst 1
• Effect: You create a line on the ground around you, which lasts until the start of your next turn, or until you leave your square.  If an enemy enters the burst, make the following attack on that enemy.
  • Immediate Reaction, Trigger: An enemy enters the burst.
  • Target: The triggering creature.
  • Attack: Strength vs. Will
  • Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier + Charisma modifier damage, and the target grants Combat Advantage until the end of your next turn.

Some fairly major changes, including seriously toning down its power level, I know.  Still, I think it's more in-line with other 1st-level powers.  It's more accurate than other powers, deals a slight bit of extra damage, and has effects that fit better with Leader powers (I'm building a theme to the Dominating Warlord suite already).  I might consider changing it to a Minor Action encounter attack power, since its so easy for a foe to avoid.  It might need the Zone keyword as well.

Crippling Strike: This... isn't a leader power.  It's a melee controller power, with some weird effects.  I don't even think the name fits particularly well with the build's theme.  I might go with:

• Crippling Strike; Fear, Martial, Weapon
• You crush your enemy, crippling him as his allies look on in shock, dropping their guard.
• Standard Action; Melee weapon 
• Attack: Strength vs. AC
• Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage, and the target is immobilized (save ends).  Make a secondary attack.
  • Close burst 3
  • Secondary Target: Each enemy in burst.
  • Attack: Strength vs. Will
  • Hit: The target grants Combat Advantage until the end of your next turn.
• Miss: Half damage, and the target is immobilized until the end of your next turn.  No secondary attack.

It's similar, but distinct.  Granting CA seems better suited to the Warlord than Immobilizing (for the secondary attack), and again fits with the theme I'm building into this build's powers.  The power doesn't make use of the build's secondary ability score (Charisma), which is unfortunate but forgiveable in this case.

Culling the Weak: A potential +10 bonus on an Intimidate check for a level 2 Utility power (an encounter power, no less) is just far too much.  Intimidate is already a powerful tool in combat - I don't think it needs such a significant boost.  I don't know how well the name fits the effects, either, but that's mostly another story.  I would drop this power completely - remove it.  In its place, perhaps I could restore the "Menacing Glare" power name:

• Menacing Glare; Fear, Martial
• You glare at your foes, conveying everything they need to know without speaking a word.
• Encounter; Minor Action; Personal
  
• Effect: Until the end of your next turn, you do not take a penalty to your Intimidate checks if you can't speak a language your target understands.

Filling the Void: My major issue with this "utility" power is that it allows you to push an enemy, with a Fear power, without an attack roll.  The name can be used for something else though, maybe.

• Filling the Void; Martial
• As your foe flees, your ally moves in to take advantage.
• Encounter
• Immediate Reaction; Trigger: An enemy within the burst shifts or moves.
• Close burst 5
• Target: One ally in a square adjacent to the space the enemy vacated.
• Effect: As a free action, the ally shifts into a square the enemy vacated.  If the ally is adjacent to the triggering enemy after this shift, the ally gains Combat Advantage against the enemy until the end of that ally's next turn.

Different, a little weird, but... better?  Maybe?  I don't know.  It's late now, and my brain is burning out on this.

Perhaps more tomorrow?

Okay.  Sorry it took me so long to get comments on this.  I had to finish my Social Challenges Blog up and I had some real llife commitments.  Stupid real life.

Design Goals Show

Menacing Warlord

Some warlords lead the battlefield by inspiring your allies.  You don’t do that.  Instead, through your physical presence and the threatening manner in which you wield your weapons, you project an aura of menace that emboldens your allies and causes your enemies to hesitate.  Your menacing presence causes your allies to appear almost as menacing as you do, converting your entire team into an aggressive terrifying murderous pack.

Menacing Class Feature Show

Heroic Powers Show

Paragon Path Concepts Show
Epic Destiny Concepts Show
Feats Show

I like the defining of the concept. A good start. Here's some quick reactions...

"Foul-Mouthed" and "Intimidating Presence" sound more like feats to me, perhaps available to others besides Warlords. Good stuff, though.

As a suggestion, add a utility (Level 6?):
We're Coming For You
Daily, Stance
While you maintain this stance, all marks on enemies who can see or hear you impose an additional -1 penalty to attack rolls when they impose a penalty to attack rolls. 



"Strength In Numbers" seems pretty good. The non-dwarven fiddle at the end seems a bit much, though; I'd drop it for simplicity (besides, shouldn't dwarves lose their minor action just to be consistent?).

A quibble about "Menacing Display" - tracking damage penalty over several turns seems bookkeepy for 4e. Make it (save ends); for Menacing, make an Aftereffect: the penalty continues until the end of the target's next turn.

"Bloody Display" is a delightful concept!

Commenting power by power

Mar 6, 2010 -- 7:36AM, wrecan wrote:

Menacing Warlord

Some warlords lead the battlefield by inspiring your allies.  You don’t do that.  Instead, through your physical presence and the threatening manner in which you wield your weapons, you project an aura of menace that emboldens your allies and causes your enemies to hesitate.  Your menacing presence causes your allies to appear almost as menacing as you do, converting your entire team into an aggressive terrifying murderous pack.

When you choose Menacing Presence, you can select the following options:

Menacing Presence: When an ally who can see you uses an Action Point to take an extra action and uses this action to make an attack, the ally can choose to take advantage of this feature before the attack roll.  The attack gains the Fear and Rattling keywords.

This Presence is useless for any party members who don't have Intimidate trained. There's also a weird interaction by making any non-damage effect into a Fear effect - it means that some stuff that isn't fear-related is now ignored by anyone immune to fear.

Mar 6, 2010 -- 7:36AM, wrecan wrote:

You're Next	Warlord Attack 1
With a baleful glare, and a murderous show of martial prowess, you let an enemy and everybody near that enemy know its days are numbered.
At-Will ♦ Martial, Weapon
Standard action Melee or Ranged weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength or Dexterity vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] plus Strength modifier damage and choose one enemy who can see the target and is not immune to attacks with the Fear keyword.  That enemy incurs a penalty to damage rolls until the end of its next turn .
Level 21: Initial Hit inflicts 2[W] plus Strength modifier damage.  All other effects remain the same.

No damage penalty is given. Warlords don't do Dexterity-based attacks. It's simpler to say "is not immune to fear".

Mar 6, 2010 -- 7:36AM, wrecan wrote:

Menacing Display	Warlord Attack 1
You kill an enemy so savagely that it causes your enemies to pause.
Daily ♦ Fear, Martial, Reliable
Immediate Reaction          Close burst 10
Target:  All enemies in burst
Attack:  Intimidate vs. Insight Trigger: You reduce an enemy who is not a minion to zero hp with a melee attack.
Hit: The target incurs a penalty to all damage rolls equal to your Charisma modifier.  This penalty lessens by 1 at the end of each of your subsequent turns, until the penalty reaches zero.
Menacing Warlord: The penalty to damage rolls does not fall below 1; it lasts until the end of the encounter.

As an immediate reaction, this power can't be used on your own turn, so it'll only work when you are granted an attack or make an OA. You'd do better to phrase this attack as was done with Shadow Hand Attack from the Ghost of Eventide (and give a normal Strength vs. Will attack as well). This also doesn't really feel like much of a hindrance. It's not better than weakened, which is already somewhat underwhelming, and it scales way too slowly. The buff for the particular build is also more annoying than it's worth - reminding the DM every time that some attacks are getting -1 to damage is going to be missed.

Mar 6, 2010 -- 7:36AM, wrecan wrote:

Intimidating Menace	Warlord Utility 2
Your physical presence is more persuasive than any words you can utter.
At-Will
Free Action - Area Personal
Effect: Use the higher of your Strength or Charisma modifiers for Intimidate checks.

This discourages menacing warlords from having a high Charisma, but the rest of the build goes the other direction. I'd consider making it a straight bonus. Speak with Spirits for the shaman is an encounter power, but it also can affect any skill. They seem roughly comparable.

Mar 6, 2010 -- 7:36AM, wrecan wrote:

Cull the Weak	Warlord Attack 3
When your allies are ready, you lash out at the weakest foes, whittling your enemies down to an appropriate size.
Encounter ♦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action - Melee or Ranged weapon
Target: One minion
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: The minion dies and all allies who can see you make a basic attack (melee or ranged) against a minion.

 

Feels too situational for an encounter power. This is your second encounter power - are you going to take something which doesn't come up in most combats to do something about as effective as a real controller?

 

Mar 6, 2010 -- 7:36AM, wrecan wrote:

Bloody Display	Warlord Attack 5
You toss a portion of a foe you just slew into the fray, sowing dissension and fear.
Daily ♦ Fear, Martial, Zone
Immediate Reaction Type - Area burst 1 within 5
Target: All enemies in burst
Attack: Intimidate vs. Insight Trigger: You reduce an enemy who is not a minion to zero hp with a melee attack.
Hit: Slide the target to an unoccupied square adjacent to the burst.  This forced movement may provoke opportunity actions if the target leaves a square adjacent to an ally.  This power does not grant extra opportunity attacks.
Effect: The burst becomes a zone that lasts until the end of the encounter.  All squares in the zone require one extra square of movement for your enemies. Menacing Warlord: After all attacks have been resolved, make a melee basic attack against each target whose forced movement ends in a square adjacent to you.

Same problem as Menacing Display with regard to action type and attack. There's also been a focus on cutting down on infinite slides. Changing it to "slide two squares" would be enough to cover all cases. I'd consider changing it to "the targets must move to a square adjacent to the burst" to get past the forced movement causing OAs.

Mar 6, 2010 -- 7:36AM, wrecan wrote:

Horrific Blow	Warlord Attack 7
You hit your target with such savage force that it knocks all your targets’ allies for a loop.
Encounter ♦ Martial, Weapon, Rattling
Standard Action - Melee or Ranged weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 2[w] plus Strength modifier damage and push creature up to three squares.  Then make a secondary attack against every enemy adjacent to the target at the end of the forced movement.
Secondary Attack: Charisma vs. Will Secondary Hit: 1d6 plus Charisma modifier psychic damage.  The target is also Rattled.

Why is the secondary attack done with Charisma? Strength vs. Will is seen in other places. I don't think you need to say the secondary attack is also rattling (it's also martial and weapon).

 

Mar 6, 2010 -- 7:36AM, wrecan wrote:

Triumphant Display	Warlord Attack 9
You eviscerate your target with such vigor that you and all your allies let your enemies know they are next.
Daily ♦ Fear, Martial
Immediate Reaction          Close burst 10
Target:  Each enemy in burst who can see you
Attack:  Intimidate vs. Insight Trigger: You reduce an enemy who is not a minion to zero hp with a melee attack.
Hit: 1d8 psychic damage and any ally who can see the target can make a basic attack (melee or ranged) against the target as a free action.
Miss: Any ally adjacent to target can make a basic melee attack against the target as a free action. Menacing Warlord: Any target hit by your ally is also marked by that ally.

Again, Immediate Reaction and Intimidate vs. Insight. This allows way too many attacks. Assuming you're in a five-man group who all have ranged basic attacks, you're allowing for four attacks made against any enemy within 10 squares. Even in a normal battlefield (and a less ranged group), you're still going to be granting a ton of attacks. The Menacing Warlord kicker gets confusing, since every ally could be making an attack. The timing of the attacks then matters. It's also not given as a choice - the ally must mark the target if it hits.

 

Mar 6, 2010 -- 7:36AM, wrecan wrote:

Strength in Numbers	Warlord Utility 10
Acting as a horde, you and your companions gain strength from the strength of your companions.
Daily ♦ Healing
Standard Action          Close burst 10
Target:  You and each ally in burst
Effect: You spend a healing surge.  Each ally in burst may also spend a healing surge as a free action.  Instead of recovering hit points equal to the usual healing surge value, you and your allies who spent healing surges gain hit points equal to the highest healing surge value of the healing surges expended plus 1 hit point per healing surge expended in this action.  However, your non-dwarven allies who choose to spend a healing surge cannot perform a standard action in their next turn (unless they expend an action point).

This power is almost always worse than Defensive Rally. Better range, it targets you, and it gives a little more healing, but it doesn't grant a saving throw, doesn't give give defensive bonuses, and costs a standard action for those allies. It's also missing the Martial keyword.

Thanks for the comments everyone.  I've edited the post to reflect many of them.  I have some quick comments to the comments.  but I didn't respond to a lot of them because I thought they were insightful and my post is edited to reflect many of them.

Herid_Fel: [Menacing Presence] This Presence is useless for any party members who don't have Intimidate trained. There's also a weird interaction by making any non-damage effect into a Fear effect - it means that some stuff that isn't fear-related is now ignored by anyone immune to fear.

Menacing Prescence definitely does not rely on being trained in Intimidate.  It adds the Rattling and Fear keywords, if the ally so chooses.  (Obviously, the ally will not choose this if facing an enemy immune to fear; that's whay I made it a choice to invoke the benefits of the Menacing Presence.)

Herid_Fel: [Cull the Weak] Feels too situational for an encounter power. This is your second encounter power - are you going to take something which doesn't come up in most combats to do something about as effective as a real controller?

One of a controller's jobs is to control minions.  In my experience, this comes up rather frequently.  If you play in a campagn where minions are not used often, your arlord should choose one of the many other options available at this level.

Herid_Fel: [Horrific Blow] Why is the secondary attack done with Charisma?

Because the warlord isn't physically attacking the enemy and Charisma is the creature's secondary stat.

I'll say this, wrecan - I love those feats. Both full of flavour, both specific enough that they don't kill the game. Gotta love foul-mouthed, especially! So cool.

Mar 7, 2010 -- 4:41AM, wrecan wrote:

Thanks for the comments everyone.  I've edited the post to reflect many of them.  I have some quick comments to the comments.  but I didn't respond to a lot of them because I thought they were insightful and my post is edited to reflect many of them.

Herid_Fel: [Menacing Presence] This Presence is useless for any party members who don't have Intimidate trained. There's also a weird interaction by making any non-damage effect into a Fear effect - it means that some stuff that isn't fear-related is now ignored by anyone immune to fear.

Menacing Prescence definitely does not rely on being trained in Intimidate.  It adds the Rattling and Fear keywords, if the ally so chooses.  (Obviously, the ally will not choose this if facing an enemy immune to fear; that's whay I made it a choice to invoke the benefits of the Menacing Presence.)

Right, but Rattling attacks only have an effect if the person using the power has Intimidate trained. It's the same as Invigorating and being trained in Endurance.

Ack! I totally missed that.  I will fix the Presence.

Feb 23, 2010 -- 3:15PM, Melos wrote:

Should gain proficiency with whips.

ROFLMAO!!

I've added two Utility powers, a new 3rd level Attack, and a new feat.

I don't have time to flesh it out, but I have ideas for three Paragon Paths and three Epic Destinies for the Menacing Warlord:

PARAGON PATHS

The Fearmonger
This Paragon Path emphasizes Fear Effects, possibly allowing the warlord to affect creaures normally immune to fear like Constructs and mindless Undead. 

The Horde Leader
This Paragon Path emphasizes the Menacing Warlord's ability to transform his party into a terrifying horde.

Marauding Savage
This Paragon Path emphasizes the ability of the menacing warlord to affect enemies by engaging in acts of horrific depravity. 


EPIC DESTINIES

Apocalyptic Warrior
The warlord intends to die in glorious savage battle against an appropriately challenging foe.  The Warrior becomes adept at fighting solo creatures, and has an epic destiny involving the warlord's noble, epic, ballad-worthy death against the final villain of the campaign.

Fear Incarnate
This warlord is so proficient at inspiring fear that her name will be remembered for generations as a synonym for fear, and parents will tell their children that if they do not behave, she will come for them.  This folklore transforms the warlord after death into an immortal incarnation of fear.

Savage Tyrant
The Menacing Warlord who intends to retire to receiving tribute form the hordes that fly tattered bloodied banners bearing his name.

I was curious about the trigger for the Daily powers. I think it is too hard and uncommon for the Warlord to be the one that drops a foe to 0 for those Dailies to be used efficiently.

I suggest some variation of the following.

Trigger: You either bloody or score a critical hit against a nonminion enemy, or reduce a nonminion enemy to 0 hit points.

Any one of these events can be used as a spectacle to trigger fear. The multiple triggers gives the Warlord some flavor in how or why the Daily was triggered. It shouldn't be too hard to trigger these, after all they don't do huge damage, and the Warlord needs to be able to have some control over when he is awesome.

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Also, any Power that requires an attack roll needs to have the Weapon keyword or have the inherent bonus to attacks per tier.

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Also, I love Murderous Bully, but the wording can be cleaned up and be given a little extra functionality. How about you affect weakened foes too? I think it is situational, therefore it should be untyped, so that it stacks with Expertise.

Murderous Bully
You relish attacking the weakest foes first.
Heroic Tier
Benefit: You have a +1 bonus to attack rolls against minions and weakened foes.

Thanks for the comments!

Sammy: I was curious about the trigger for the Daily powers. I think it is too hard and uncommon for the Warlord to be the one that drops a foe to 0 for those Dailies to be used efficiently.

I was thinking that too.  But I really wanted it to be based on death, not merely a critical hit or bloodied.  How about the following trigger:

Trigger: An enemy within your reach and who is not a minion was reduced to zero hit points since the end of your last turn.

Sammy: Also, any Power that requires an attack roll needs to have the Weapon keyword or have the inherent bonus to attacks per tier.

All my attack powers either have the Weapon keyword or use Intimidate vs. Insight.  A Skill check is generally easier than an attack, particularly since the Warlord is likely to be trained and will want to Focus Intimidate as well.

Sammy: Also, I love Murderous Bully, but the wording can be cleaned up and be given a little extra functionality. How about you affect weakened foes too? I think it is situational, therefore it should be untyped, so that it stacks with Expertise.

Good suggestion!

I'm still of the mindset that this build be allowed to benefit from the Ranged Warlord options introduced in Martial Power 2. Ranged/Area attacks are an important component of control.

Also, the Ranged stuff would enjoy a little more support. It is under-represented.

If you keep the control to melee and close attacks, you're effectively doing Defender-level battlefield control.

I mean, you aim an arrow at me, and it's just like pointing a gun at me. I feel like you can shoot me before I can do anything about it. That's terrifying. Now shout at me. Eeeek!

Wow, cool. Thanks much, wrecan, for directing me to this topic (insert evil laughter). I made almost a whole class around this concept (it's in the signature, up to the end of heroic tier; I've got more if anyone wants to see it, just not posted yet), of someone who makes enemies flee and cower. I actually made a power that would be an excellant combination of Leader and Controller. I present to you, Coordinated Defence!

Coordinated Defense	Drifter   Attack 9
With eyes peeled, you strike hard and with cunning, moving your foes like chess pieces towards the setup strike.
Daily ♦ Martial, Zone
Standard Action - Area wall 8 in weapon range
Effect: The area is a zone which lasts until the end of your next turn. If an enemy enters the wall or starts its turn there, you may slide that target a number of squares equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum 1) as an Opportunity Action. If the enemy ends its movement adjacent to an ally, he or she may make a melee basic attack against the enemy as an Immediate Reaction, and add your Intelligence modifier to the attack's damage roll.
Sustain Minor : Each time you sustain the zone, remove one square of your choice from the wall. Once the wall's size reaches 1, you can no longer sustain it.

I actually have a version of it that is twice as long on my computer, but the one critic I actually got pointed out that it was too complex and needed to be simplified to the above. Does this seem to fit the idea of control meets leadership we're talking about?

Caeric,

Exactly how do you envision the character sliding enemies who may be up to 40 feet away (and then sliding them possibly another 20 feet away)?  This is a martial power, but I'm having trouble accepting this power as something that's feasible under a martial power source.  Is he using ranged weapons and shooting at the guy's feet to make him dance away?

My Drifter class has a focus on ranged weapons, which is why he's able to do it. Along the lines of intimidating someone into staying nearby, it's the intimidation factor of "I'm about to throw a knife at you, you better run!" You screw with them. As soon as they cross that line, the enemy sees you start pulling the bowstring taut, and they go scrambling -- and if you did it right, they go scrambling straight into the oustretched arm of your waiting teammate.

I guess it's a bit of a stretch. It definately would require you to wield a ranged weapon. But I think that the idea -- these fictitious zones and the ability to include your teammates in the execution of the control -- would make a fine way to design Dominating Warlord powers.

That makes more sense.  Thanks, Caeric!

You're welcome, I guess. Good to hear that I make sense. I'll post another favourite of mine from my Drifter guy in the same vein. There aren't many of this variety, since this is a more leaderly edge in many ways. I'll appropriate it for a more Dominating Warlord feel.

Setup Manoeuvre	Warlord Attack 5
Another barrage of artillery strikes leaps into the air at your whim – and your allies help to corral your foes into disadvantage.
Daily ♦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action - Area burst 1 in weapon range
Target: all enemies in burst.
Attack: Strength vs. Reflex
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage.
Effect: If an ally is within the area of the attack, the ally knocks one enemy prone and slides a different enemy 1 square as a free action.          Up to two allies are able to benefit like this; a single enemy can only be affected by a single ally's free action.

Similar, but the idea is that it encourages you to fire straight into the face of your allies. While teh enemies are taking the heat, your fellows are given the chance to do some damage.

I thought of another power that might be a neat daily for a Dominating Warlord, but it seems not very controller-y, just very much in the vein of "giving allies off-turn tactical options." It'd be a daily where you can have one PC move up to your target and push him x squares, another ally can move up to your target and knock him prone and push him 1 or 2 squares, and a third ally can move up and... something nasty.

I sort of picture that brief part in the recent Transformers film (first one) where Jazz, Ratchet and Ironhide all gang up on Demolitioner and just do this very well-coordinated assault that ends up lobbing off his arm. That's the sort of thing that says "awesome warlord did it."

Who says a dominating wizard has to have it easy? People look up to him, people depend on him. Being a dominating wizard is hard work, very dangerous, and the laundry bill can be a bitch (minion uniforms require a lot of bleach).

The most likely place to find the neighborhood dominating wizard is in a back office somewhere going over the company books with his accountant.