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3 months ago ::
Feb 27, 2013 - 1:45PM
#151
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Oh I agreeon that point I just think it's unfair to point warlord out as a log jam since my experience is that he shortens fights, remember the extra actions granted by the warlord are generally very specific and do not actually require much decision making on the part of the other players.
^ THIS ^
Warlords don't make turns longer unless players are ALREADY disengaged.
And that's its own problem, not anything to do with the Warlord.
Anywho, Next combat is lightning quick compared to 4th.
I think the system can handle one little slowdown from player interaction, just like it can handle the slowdown from Vancian decision-paralaysis.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 27, 2013 - 4:42PM
#152
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Personally I don't think there's any action-economy problem if the warlord's giving up his action to let somebody else take an action. That's just trading one die roll for another.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 27, 2013 - 4:44PM
#153
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2011
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Personally I don't think there's any action-economy problem if the warlord's giving up his action to let somebody else take an action. That's just trading one die roll for another.
If anything, they could be speeding up the game, since they can let the guy who deals the most damage take another whack at something, as opposed to attacking it himself and dealing less damage
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3 months ago ::
Feb 27, 2013 - 4:48PM
#154
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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just like it can handle the slowdown from Vancian decision-paralaysis.
Only casters have the priority to induce that don't you know.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 27, 2013 - 5:02PM
#155
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just like it can handle the slowdown from Vancian decision-paralaysis.
Only casters have the priority to induce that don't you know.
Hey, I've got a GREAT idea!
In the Basic game, the one we use to introduce new players to the game, let's include the most time consuming, confusing and difficult to justify magic system ever invented!
Then they'll have FANTASTIC first play experiences and want to play D&D forever!
...
Or not.
...
On topic,
I'm really just not feeling that there are any legitimate issues which will prevent the Warlord from being a fantastic class in Next.
Barring terrible design, which I'm not going to rule out based on what we've seen so far. Which makes me hope that they release the class SOON so it has time to go through a few revision cycles and get ok, like the classes we are playing with now.
And, in another related issue.
I've realised that the big problem with Warlords and "healing" is that they don't heal.
They only restore Hit Points.
The key issue is that most Hit Point recovery ISN'T HEALING.
Given the abstract nature of HP most of them (sometimes all but the last one that takes a character to 0HP or below) are nicks, scratches, bruises, exhaustion, tiredness and dropping morale.
So when we restore Hit Points we usually aren't actually "healing" any "wounds" because if we WERE then our characters would be being impared by those wounds, taking penalties from broken bones, ongoing damage from bleeding or being slowed by leg wounds.
As there ARE no penalties for loss of HP (though there could be, that'd be a GREAT advanced module for all the "HP are meat" fans) our characters obviously AREN'T taking serious wounds.
So there IS NO MARTIAL "HEALING" happening.
Just non-magical restoration of Hit Points.
I'm coming over to the idea that whatever healing effects Warlords do have shouldn't affect charaters who can't see or hear them (no matter that this can actually happen in reality www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-4999948.h... so fantasy characters certainly should be able to do it) so they won't affect unconscious allies.
There should be an ability to make an attribute check (aided by the Heal skill, if available) to bandage and awaken a fallen ally on 1HP however.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 27, 2013 - 5:12PM
#156
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Date Joined:
May 27, 2012
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As there ARE no penalties for loss of HP (though there could be, that'd be a GREAT advanced module for all the "HP are meat" fans) our characters obviously AREN'T taking serious wounds.
Or, alternatively, our characters are taking serious wounds and we just choose to not model those penalties with game mechanics because the increased verisimilitude does not justify the added complexity or facilitate our desired narrative (wherein we want to encourage come-from-behind victories).
The metagame is not the game.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 27, 2013 - 5:13PM
#157
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Date Joined:
Oct 26, 2004
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Actually if you check the rules packet they expressely state that HP is not meat until you hit 0.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 27, 2013 - 5:32PM
#158
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Actually if you check the rules packet they expressely state that HP is not meat until you hit 0.
The thing is that I don't think either side takes that kind of statement as definitive.
First off, is anyone advocating a warlord who can restore HP, but only to conscious targets (whose meat remains inviolate)? Because that would fit the description you mention, but it wouldn't be very mechanically effective for the class. (The biggest reason to prefer healing over mitigation, IMHO, is that you can't mitigate someone back to consciousness.)
More likely, those advocating for warlord healing (myself included) think it's necessary for any class that hopes to replace the cleric to be able to get a wounded or unconscious ally back on his feet, and we'll squeeze a justification for that ability into the archetype however we can. (Maybe warlords can slap on a quasi-magical poultice really quickly? Maybe they can inspire someone back to their feet by yelling really, really loud? Maybe "unconscious" just means "unable to stand up and fight for the moment"?)
Of course, the other side of the argument - that every point of hp damage represents a physical wound - is equally silly. Let's say a level 1 goblin archer scores a critical hit against a naked high-level barbarian, dealing 12 damage out of the barbarian's 200 hp. What the heck does that represent? Is the goblin critically grazing his arm? And why can everyone get beaten down to the edge of unconsciousness without even the slightest reduction in their combat effectiveness?
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3 months ago ::
Feb 27, 2013 - 5:42PM
#159
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Date Joined:
May 27, 2012
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Actually if you check the rules packet they expressely state that HP is not meat until you hit 0.
Since we're talking about the warlord, I'm definitely not concerned with anything in a prior packet (even though the "official" word is that HP in Next are split exactly 50/50). My explanation goes back to most previous editions (still on the fence with 4E), as well as a number of other games within and outside both the genre and medium.
The question of how to model physical wounds is a very old one, and the solution to not attempt to accurately model them (for the sake of simplicity and encouraged narrative) is amongst the oldest of answers. Personally, I've never seen a particular reason to look any further than that, because attempts to find a better answer all involve trade-offs that are not particularly appealing to me.
The metagame is not the game.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 27, 2013 - 6:08PM
#160
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Actually if you check the rules packet they expressely state that HP is not meat until you hit 0.
...
First off, is anyone advocating a warlord who can restore HP, but only to conscious targets (whose meat remains inviolate)? Because that would fit the description you mention, but it wouldn't be very mechanically effective for the class. (The biggest reason to prefer healing over mitigation, IMHO, is that you can't mitigate someone back to consciousness.)
...
Yes, that's EXACTLY what I'm suggesting.
While still pointing out that it's unrealistic, because people being woken from unconsciousness due to wounds happens in the real world: www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-4999948.h...
But I'd accept Hit Point restoration from the Warlord without healing, so no "recover from 0 or below" (likely best modelled by simply requiring that the target of the Hit Point restoration be able to see or hear the Warlord) powers.
But I'd also like to see a clearly stated ability to make an ability check (modified by the Heal skill) to recover wounded comrades to 1HP by adjacent adventurers spending an action.
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