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3 months ago ::
Feb 15, 2013 - 2:00AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jan 17, 2012
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The Role of the DM I was watching a debate about old school vs new school gaming, one thing that came up I wasn’t aware of, was that in 4e there were two areas where it mentioned that having a DM was not necessary. First in the DMG there was a section about using random encounters and rewards to dungeon crawl, another was in the last section of the PH 3 (?) where it said that if you just get a module you don’t really need a DM (can anyone confirm?) but the bottom line for me is, (assuming this is true) they created a game where if you have the right supplements a DM is completely unnecessary. (this is not meant as a slight to 4e, just an observation) I hope this IS NOT a design goal for 5th ed. To me most of the fun of being a DM is creating the world, the NPCs, the story and plots, and all of that is central on having me as a DM run the players through those plots, or act those NPC roles with the players. IMHO To have a real TTRPG you MUST have a DM. If you create a game where a DM is completely unnecessary in essence you’ve changed a role-playing game into a boardgame. If you see your job as a DM as doing nothing but reading what it says out of the pre-written module, move and roll for the monsters, and play your NPC as a character in the party, to me your not really DM-ing, your half playing the game and sort of half DM-ing. Your not doing work creating anything, your responses to the characters as an NPC are already written down (except for a tiny bit of improv when the characters say or ask something unexpected) your not having to balance or create encounters, or plan out what rewards will be available and really think about how the players will utilize them. The rules are so well written, there is never a need to interpret them. This isn’t DM-ing to me, its wargaming. Sure I’ve heard the other arguments, we don’t have time to do that, we have lives and facebook and jobs kids cars blah.. we cant possibly prepare for two hours to run a four hour game… aint nobody got time for that… in my mind then you really don’t have time to run an RPG, and shouldn’t be DM-ing. I’ve also heard the argument “we have fun doing this, shut up and let us have our fun you damn one true wayist” fair enough, but that’s also going to be my first rule of finding a game, asking a DM “are you really a player just running a pre-scripted game from an AP or are you actually going to DM?” To me this is the essence of the difference between old school and new school gaming.
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
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3 months ago ::
Feb 15, 2013 - 3:21AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Jan 17, 2012
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Two hours to prepare for a 4 hr adventure is not a part time job.
If you dont have enough time to DM... then you dont have enough time to DM. period. its not your players fault you have so many responsibiltites that you cant possibly spend any time before a game actually preparing for it.
Why should the players at the table have to suffer because you cant do time management?
what does the BBG say? uh hold on a sec, I got it in a book here somewhere... now where did I leave that... uh now gotta look it up... uh ok yeah he says... urm... no its on that other page, hold on a sec... um..
at that point I'm leaving the table.
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
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3 months ago ::
Feb 15, 2013 - 3:31AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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It's all about tools. Provide guides, subsystems, and tools for the people who want them while allowing DMs to ignore them.
The differenes won't mattter if you actually provide a game both types of DMs can play.
There are flaws off both old school and new school DMing and we should groups to choose.
If you do not provide options for both styles, you get more bad and low quality DMs.
Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds.
Constitution Based Class for Next!
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3 months ago ::
Feb 15, 2013 - 3:32AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Sep 21, 2007
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(SNIP)
IMHO To have a real TTRPG you MUST have a DM. If you create a game where a DM is completely unnecessary in essence you’ve changed a role-playing game into a boardgame.
(SNIP)
to me your not really DM-ing, your half playing the game and sort of half DM-ing.
(SNIP)
Your not doing work creating anything, This isn’t DM-ing to me.
(SNIP)
in my mind then you really don’t have time to run an RPG, and shouldn’t be DM-ing.
(SNIP)
I’ve also heard the argument “we have fun doing this, shut up and let us have our fun you damn one true wayist” fair enough, but that’s also going to be my first rule of finding a game, asking a DM “are you really a player just running a pre-scripted game from an AP or are you actually going to DM?”
Way to tell people they are having Badwrong fun.
Who are you exactly to define what a TTRPG is and isn't to everyone?
Personaly, I take the time to prepare my games a bit: I don't have kids and I only DM once a week.
But some people just don't have the time, does that mean that they don't deserve to play ?
ALso, is that tread supposed to spark a discussion? or are you just loudly emitting your opinion for everyone else to bask in your genuineness ?
P.S. English isn't my first language, but your and you're is one of the first things I learned...it's not even hard
Try radiance RPG. A complete D20 game that supports fantasy and steampunk. Download the FREE PDF here:
http://www.radiancerpg.com
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3 months ago ::
Feb 15, 2013 - 3:52AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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Two hours to prepare for a 4 hr adventure is not a part time job.
If you dont have enough time to DM... then you dont have enough time to DM. period. its not your players fault you have so many responsibiltites that you cant possibly spend any time before a game actually preparing for it.
Why should the players at the table have to suffer because you cant do time management?
Time is crutch.
Time allows DMs to upgrade their games and become better DM by letting them dull their DMing weaknesses.
Tools and Guides are another way to fix weaknesses.
That is the core of the old/new ridge.
Old School does not want to harm the system in order to develop DMs.
New School does.
The answer is to develop DMs while maaking a system that allows freedom.
Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds.
Constitution Based Class for Next!
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3 months ago ::
Feb 15, 2013 - 4:03AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jun 19, 2004
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DMing is being creative.
You do not necessarily need a lot of time, depending on what you want to do. Different DMs plan differently. There are those who need to write down everything, those who can improvise a lot while remaining coherent and those in between. I am in between. I usually spend a few hours preparing a session (playing DD4) like I did with previous editions. Sometimes I want to write down most descriptions of what the characters will live or encounter, sometimes I think about it ahead of time but do not write it down and keep it in memory until I need it during the session, adapting as the plot unfolds.
But DMing is work alright. The proof is, ususally in a gaming group, there is a Primary DM who will DM most than ther other members of the group. (at least it's what I experienced in my 20 years of roleplaying). DMing is not at everyone's reach.
Some players do not have the time, or do not want to take the time, to create an adventure with a story, a plot, coherent NPCs, monsters, mapping, etc, completely satifsfied with their role as a player. Sometimes it's easier to come to a session, sit down, play, go home, then wait for the next session to by planned.
I also think that some players do not realize what it means to be a DM until they try out the role.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 15, 2013 - 4:44AM
#7
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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Balbamoth, your premise is wrong. No 4e supplement recommends DMless play. You may be thinking of the 1e DMG which had random dungeon generation and random monster tables so you could run a DMless dungeon crawl. Of course that would turn your argument entirely on its head because it means that old school was designed to allow DMless games and 4e was not.
Sorry for the interruption. Please continue with your edition warring.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 15, 2013 - 6:38AM
#8
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In the interests of strict accuracy (as my opinions on what the OP has put forth are well known to say the least) I do believe one of the two 4th ED DMGs did have a variant of those same rules Wrecan, although I can't look it up right now as I'm literally about to throw on my coat and walk out the door to work right now.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 15, 2013 - 6:47AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Jan 10, 2012
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About the only time you don't need a DM is if you are playing a solo adventure module.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 15, 2013 - 7:04AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Jan 17, 2012
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Chuck- when I say IMHO that means its "in my own humble opinion" im not defining it for everyone, I am using a public formum to state my opinion. which is kind of the point of having public forums so yes, I guess I am loudly (?) emitting my opionion to allow everyone to bask in my genuineness.
If somebody does not have the time to run then yes then they should not run, if they dont have the time to be a player, then yes they should not show up at a game and leave 20 minutes later. If you dont have time for a hobby then you probably should find a hobby that takes less time.
Acrilos- Agree with most points you made, and generally yeah, I think that most DMs use a combination of materials and their own designs… its kinda cheating if you use a pre-made setting, cheating a little more if your running pre-written adventures, and cheating so much I will leave a game if you aren’t even roleplaying but instead reading statements out of a book. Orzel- I gotta disagree with you there, you cant turn a person with no technical skill and no understanding of auto repair into a great mechanic by handing them every tool a mechanic would ever need, likewise the only way to prevent a bad DM with a system, is to make a system that really does not need a DM to function, otherwise known as a boardgame or wargame, and that is something that has been bothering me about many APs coming out, they seem more like "choose your own adventure!" books where having the characters do anything that wasnt predicted in the book leading to a collapse of the game or game world "well you decided to go to that other town rather than fight the thing over the hill, therefore the bbeg wins and the world is destroyed create new characters."
I think it's wrong to try and prevent bad DMs from a design standpoint, you just have to accept that some people either because of lack of natural tallent or ability will never make a good DM regardless of the system or tools available.
and that "time" and "crunch" your talking about, thats what the supplements and tools are taking away, the ability to create and improv, its not a skill you pick up by reading out of an adventure path, and generally I don’t see people who do that becoming better and better DMs… they just buy more adventure paths, which is fine if your selling them but not so great if your only choice is to play in them. Wrecan as I said I never bought a single 4e book, but plenty of others have... this is from another forum on playing 4e without a DM... "Playing Without a DM" section is two paragraphs out of 224 pages in the Dungeons Masters Guide (the random dungeon and monster pages are another 4-5 pages.) You will also need the Players Handbook (character creation and combat rules) and a Monster Manual (for the monster stats.) " so it IS in the 4e DMG as I stated assuming this poster is correct, another poster said the rules are "in the back of the DMG". Then I did a little more searching and found its on page 195 of the 4e DMG, so go back re-read your 4th ed DMG or just keep on making wrong posts, hasnt stopped you before why change now?
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
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