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3 months ago ::
Feb 15, 2013 - 7:11AM
#11
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2008
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So, essentially you are telling us that you wouldn't want to play with a group that doesn't play the way you want to play? Thanks for the information, I'll inform the stenographer.
To be fair, I will do the same, and tell you about my own preferences:
To me, D&D is a game that is fun to play, and I play it with my friends (just like any other game). We enjoy it a lot (just like any other game), and we don't take it too seriously (just like any other game). We understand that we all have things going on in real life. We have kids, work, go to school, have relationships, etc. When we have time, we gather to play D&D because it is always fun. It doesn't matter to us if the DM created a fully fleshed out world or if they are running a premade adventure. And we wouldn't have it any other way. I would never play with a group that made me feel bad for putting real life ahead of a game.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 15, 2013 - 7:33AM
#12
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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its on page 195 of the 4e DMG, so go back re-read your 4th ed DMG or just keep on making wrong posts, hasnt stopped you before why change now?
You are coorect and I apologize. i had forgotten that rules for random dungeons are in the 4e DMG, just as they ar ein the 1e DMG.
Still, no comment on the fact that the exact same rules are in the 1e DMG?
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3 months ago ::
Feb 15, 2013 - 7:33AM
#13
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As Wrecan has said, playing a DM-less game has been bounced around as a concept since 1e. Earlier actuall, as that was the impetus behind the Dungeon! game.
I think 4e made this easier with the embracing of the Delve format and the samey monster design. As monsters were less likely to be gotcha! monsters or require special tricks or tactics to defeat it is easier for the players to run and manage. But that's the most shallow expression of D&D. It's still fun, as shown by the Delve board game, but isn't very varied.
Ptye advantage of a DM is the range of actions, from the simple straightforward delve to complicated WoW raid style boss fights to combat-less mysteries to character based tales
Before posting, ask yourself WWWS: What Would Wrecan Say? Spoiler:
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3 months ago ::
Feb 15, 2013 - 7:54AM
#14
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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Baalamoth
I'll have to disagree with you there. Mostly because you see Good DMing and Bad DMing as black and white. Dungeon Mastery is not a single skill. It is a combination of many skills:
Tactical Management
Strategic Management
Story Arc Creation
Historic Creation of the Narrative
Improvised Narration
Character Creation
System Knowledge
System Mastery
Map Creation and Logistic
Dungeon Design
Improvised Houseruling
Etc
Etc
I know many DMs are good at some DMing skills but bad at others. Sometimes they are lucky enough to find a group doesn't care about the element the DM is poor at or they just happen to not screw up bad enough. But I've see DMs want or try to do things they are not good at, and because their is no help, guidance, or sample rules for it, they fail miserably.
I haven't known a DM who is a natural at all these DM fields. Most good DMs have learned through trial and error and years of play. And Many good DMs are still weak in certain areas.
It is just as wrong to leave everything open and allow DM Survival of the Fittest handle DM success as it is to hard code everything in hard locked systems the DM who don't need help in a particular skill cannot opt out of.
DDN should be an edition that helps when you need it (new school) and stays out when you don't (old school).
Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds.
Constitution Based Class for Next!
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3 months ago ::
Feb 15, 2013 - 8:02AM
#15
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2008
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The Role of the DM
I was watching a debate about old school vs new school gaming, one thing that came up I wasn’t aware of, was that in 4e there were two areas where it mentioned that having a DM was not necessary. First in the DMG there was a section about using random encounters and rewards to dungeon crawl, another was in the last section of the PH 3 (?) where it said that if you just get a module you don’t really need a DM (can anyone confirm?) but the bottom line for me is, (assuming this is true) they created a game where if you have the right supplements a DM is completely unnecessary. (this is not meant as a slight to 4e, just an observation)
I hope this IS NOT a design goal for 5th ed. To me most of the fun of being a DM is creating the world, the NPCs, the story and plots, and all of that is central on having me as a DM run the players through those plots, or act those NPC roles with the players. IMHO To have a real TTRPG you MUST have a DM. If you create a game where a DM is completely unnecessary in essence you’ve changed a role-playing game into a boardgame.
If you see your job as a DM as doing nothing but reading what it says out of the pre-written module, move and roll for the monsters, and play your NPC as a character in the party, to me your not really DM-ing, your half playing the game and sort of half DM-ing.
Your not doing work creating anything, your responses to the characters as an NPC are already written down (except for a tiny bit of improv when the characters say or ask something unexpected) your not having to balance or create encounters, or plan out what rewards will be available and really think about how the players will utilize them. The rules are so well written, there is never a need to interpret them. This isn’t DM-ing to me, its wargaming.
Sure I’ve heard the other arguments, we don’t have time to do that, we have lives and facebook and jobs kids cars blah.. we cant possibly prepare for two hours to run a four hour game… aint nobody got time for that… in my mind then you really don’t have time to run an RPG, and shouldn’t be DM-ing.
I’ve also heard the argument “we have fun doing this, shut up and let us have our fun you damn one true wayist” fair enough, but that’s also going to be my first rule of finding a game, asking a DM “are you really a player just running a pre-scripted game from an AP or are you actually going to DM?”
To me this is the essence of the difference between old school and new school gaming.
Going to have to disagree on a lot of that. The DM helps facilitate the gaming experience and arbitrates rule disputes. That's basically all that's mandatory. Hell, you can do that solo if you wish. One thing to keep in mind is there is no Platonic ideal of what a particular role within a game is.
As a DM, I would be upfront with the players. Yes I am running H1-E3 as written with a few embellishments. Don't like it? Ok.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 15, 2013 - 8:06AM
#16
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Date Joined:
Feb 19, 2009
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The one and only measurement of a good DM is whether their players have a good time.
They do? You're a good DM, even if you are reading a module verbatim.
They don't? You are a bad DM, no matter how far back you have written the biographies of the Royal House of Zend who they might encounter 3 sessions from now.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 15, 2013 - 8:06AM
#17
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2008
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Two hours to prepare for a 4 hr adventure is not a part time job.
If you dont have enough time to DM... then you dont have enough time to DM. period. its not your players fault you have so many responsibiltites that you cant possibly spend any time before a game actually preparing for it.
Why should the players at the table have to suffer because you cant do time management?
what does the BBG say? uh hold on a sec, I got it in a book here somewhere... now where did I leave that... uh now gotta look it up... uh ok yeah he says... urm... no its on that other page, hold on a sec... um..
at that point I'm leaving the table.
Bye... Really, it's not the DMs job to hold your hand and entertain you.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 15, 2013 - 8:27AM
#18
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Date Joined:
May 25, 2012
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its on page 195 of the 4e DMG, so go back re-read your 4th ed DMG or just keep on making wrong posts, hasnt stopped you before why change now?
You are coorect and I apologize. i had forgotten that rules for random dungeons are in the 4e DMG, just as they ar ein the 1e DMG.
Still, no comment on the fact that the exact same rules are in the 1e DMG?
What Wrecan is referring to is on pg. 169 Appendex A. random Dungeon Generation ( 1st Edition Dmg). Random generation and play is actually noted by Gary as useful but also as More time consuming rather than less. Baalbamoth, The section is just before Random encounter which also is as staple of AD&D play at all levels of experience. There is Value in this sort of play.
Your entire thread seems to be a big " Up your nose with a rubber hose" toward 4e. You are coming off as anti 4th edition and baiting for edition war. I also prefer AD&D over any other system but not to the exclusion or degradation of other peoples playstyle or prefered game. I'm not sure if you are doing this on purpouse or just out of emotional upheaval about the new school style of play. Either way,being a good D.M. has less to do with the chosen r.p. vehicle than it does with a proper attitude, preparation, and System Mastery. Then there's the Best tool a D.M. can ever have- experience.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 15, 2013 - 8:38AM
#19
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Date Joined:
Jan 17, 2012
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arithezoo- so you've never gamed at a game stores open gaming night, never went to a convention, never played a game with people you had never met before? not everyone I game with I would consider a friend, most are just other gamers, and thats sorta what happens when you get older and all the guys you use to game with around the kitchen table go to different colleges or move to different parts of the country...
Likewise D&D is not "always" fun for me, a bad game, bad DM, bad system can ruin parts if not all of that fun and turns into a big waste of time. IF that happens, I find new gamers to game with... or I quit gaming for a while. my friends are my friends with or without D&D
and yeah... when the DM at our game store weekly game sent a text saying the game had been canciled today because of personal issues and this has happened in 3 of the last 6 weeks... I did give him some crap about it.
If you tell 7 people (not necessarily friends) that you will put aside your "real life concerns" for one night a week, every week, just like you expect the other players to do, and 50% of the time you cant make it after they had already arranged their schedules... you deserve to take some crap about it, you should feel a little bad about it, and you should make some effort not to let it happen again unless there is an emergency. it's not just about "fun" people with lives make a commitment in order to game, that should be respected.
wrecan - its more than just rules for a random dungeon generator, it actually says that "a DM is not necessary" and gives more rules for DM less play... I sort of remember random dungeon generators in the AD&D dmg... but I dont ever remember reading play without a DM being encouraged.
edit- some other responses were made while I was writing this...
demomonkey- so if your having a terrible time your still a good DM as long as the players are having fun... humm... I dont think I'd agree with that, and I think that whole line of reasoning is suspect and the reasoning behind why they mention monty hall games in AD&D... your not having fun... here have a +5 holy avenger, still not having fun, gain two levels and become immune to death! having fun now?!?! see I told you im a good DM!
Regarding the position that a DM need only facilitate the game, and end rule dispuits... not a DM to me. I tend to agree with the many descriptions of a DM I read in most games... that if the game is a move the PC's are the main characters, the DM is the director, writer, producer, location screener, FX designer, as well as acting all the supporting and antagonist roles, and because its a game not a move also the Ref.
Its ok with me if a DM cuts some of these corners, but too much and yeah it just feels like I'm reading a book where my character is just "hero guy no 2" or why should I spend time doing this when I'd get more enjoyment out of actually reading a book or going to the movies? and thats sort of the problem with bad DMs...
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
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3 months ago ::
Feb 15, 2013 - 8:59AM
#20
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Date Joined:
Feb 17, 2010
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To summarize the OP (and many other threads I've seen on these boards): "D&D should not provide this option (which is completely optional and doesn't impinge on my preferred playstyle in any way, shape, for form), because I don't like it, and if I don't like it, no one should."
You're welcome.
I want "punch magic in the face" to be a maneuver
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