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Switch to Forum Live View Best Designed Version of Each Class?
3 months ago  ::  Feb 12, 2013 - 10:38PM #141
rampant
Date Joined: Oct 26, 2004
Posts: 7,985
Another way to do it would have been the berzerker, not the barbarian, the berserker or maybe the garganta, wading into the fight with a big arse weapon or a massive shield and smashing away 3 and 4 guys with each attack, not doing a huge amount of damage but flinging people far away and knocking them on their keisters.
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3 months ago  ::  Feb 12, 2013 - 10:59PM #142
Garthanos
Date Joined: Jan 15, 2009
Posts: 17,675

Feb 12, 2013 -- 10:38PM, rampant wrote:

Another way to do it would have been the berzerker, not the barbarian, the berserker or maybe the garganta, wading into the fight with a big arse weapon or a massive shield and smashing away 3 and 4 guys with each attack, not doing a huge amount of damage but flinging people far away and knocking them on their keisters.




A monk doing similar.. toss em around via there own strength.

You can have any martial type laying down Caltrops and Molotov Cocktails which create damaging/deadly movement inhibiting zones.

You can have Warlords manipulating enemies with fear / fog of war via coordinated ally movements and timed and tempered intimidations and deceptions (inducing more of the same).

 

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3 months ago  ::  Feb 13, 2013 - 2:39AM #143
Lesp
Date Joined: May 5, 2009
Posts: 2,300
I get the impression that controller was the hardest role to design for to begin with. The system at all stages presented fewer controllers than members of other roles and seemed to struggle to differentiate them. In a system where classes really had truly different capabilities and M.O. than each other and tended to play very differently, the Invoker and Wizard were quite similar to each other, and the Psion was similar to those, albeit with a resource system that didn't work very well as implemented. (I don't believe that the PP concept used by the 4e psionic classes is fatally flawed, but I do think that the relative value of lots of high-impact actions compared to a mix of very-high impact and lower-impact actions wasn't pinned very well, especially in the case of the Psion.) The seeker does have some novel elements, but ended up being distinguished in most people's minds by the fact that it was simply less effective. The druid ended up being unique primarily due to the fact that it inherited the puzzle of how to handle turning into an animal, and while the solution they came up with does make for a more unique class, it doesn't make for a very pleasing representation of shapeshifting.

Part of it is that, unlike most roles, controllers tended to have the majority of their schtick bundled into their powers, rather than into class abilities. This meant that they tended to not have the same mechanical heart as most classes. A barbarian, a TWF ranger, a melee rogue, and an avenger are all melee weapon-using strikers, but they feel nothing alike because their mechanical hearts pull them in different directions. Their powers reflect this as well, but some of what makes them them lies in their mechanical hearts. (The barbarian is unusual among strikers in that its heart is mostly in its powers.)

If you're going to have classes that live mostly in their powers, their powers need to follow something of a general theme if you want them to feel distinct. I don't know if I can reasonably say that the Invoker and the Wizard really did that. The Invoker has a stronger leader streak, has summons that work a little differently, tends more towards radiant damage, and picked up a small martydom theme, but none of those are very pronounced (although the first is noticiable.)

I think that ultimately the reason that there wasn't a martial controller is that that space was eaten up in the rogue's controllerish subtheme and the fighter's defendery support powers.
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3 months ago  ::  Feb 13, 2013 - 3:12AM #144
Uskglass
Date Joined: Oct 17, 2007
Posts: 925

Feb 13, 2013 -- 2:39AM, Lesp wrote:

I get the impression that controller was the hardest role to design for to begin with. [...]

I think that ultimately the reason that there wasn't a martial controller is that that space was eaten up in the rogue's controllerish subtheme and the fighter's defendery support powers.




Yeah, interestingly enough there is quite a lot of battle control going on in 4e, and it is very effective, but when it come to channel that into a specific role it tends to fall flat, leading to unexpected outcomes, like a fighter with the right build being more 'controllery' than most (any?) druid builds.

I think at the beginning they got the role plain wrong, pinning down control as 'AoE minion-wiping', but then there were definitely improvemets with supplements.  
It would have probably helped to have control features built into controller classes, to give the role distinctiveness, like it pretty much is for defenders, strikers and leaders, instead of just relying on powers.

Still I can understand how a pure controller role can be particularly hard to get right, as it will constantly be on the verge between lackluster and overpower. 4e tipped on the former side, which was the safer option for the game, but ended up being a bit underwhelming. 

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3 months ago  ::  Feb 13, 2013 - 6:44AM #145
dmgorgon
Date Joined: Jan 10, 2012
Posts: 2,763
I think the Berserker and the Barbarian are two different sub classes of the fighter.      Not all Barbarians need to be breserkers either.
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3 months ago  ::  Feb 13, 2013 - 6:58AM #146
wrecan
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Majority Classes


These are classes that have appeared in three or more editions (not including the playtest).  Results in boldface beat its nearest competition by double. 

Class BECMI 1e 2e 3e/PF 4e Playtest
Assassin 0 0 2 1 2 0
Barbarian 0 6 14 1
Bard 0 2 6 0
Cleric 0 0 12½ 10 5
Druid 0 6 4 0
Fighter 2 2 3 7 17 1
Monk 0 6 1 5 11 0
Paladin 0 2 7 10 13 0
Psion 0 1 1 3 1 0
Ranger 0 5 7 5 6 0
Rogue 0 6 14 1
Wizard 1 3 11½ 2 1

Minority Class Concepts


These are class concepts that have appeared in various forms but not in one consistent form more than two editions (not including the playtest).
Class BECMI 1e 2e 3e/PF 4e Playtest
Artificer
(or any  item-enchanting class) 
0 0 0 4 1 0
Avenger
(or any dextrous divine class) 
0 0 0 0 3 0
Gish
(elf, swordmage, swordsage)
1 0 0 1 1 0
Shaman
(or other primal non-druid classes) 
0 0 1 0 2 0
Sorcerer
(or other non-Vancian arcane casters) 
0 0 0 5 4 1
Warlock
(or other blaster wizardly types) 
0 0 2 10½ 11½ 1
Marshal/Warlord
(or other martial leader types) 
0 0 0 3 16 0


Updated!
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3 months ago  ::  Feb 13, 2013 - 9:28AM #147
rampant
Date Joined: Oct 26, 2004
Posts: 7,985
I think you're just not using the druid right if the fighter is doing more control. I've had the dubiuos honor of hosting two druids in my 4e games one of which was performing excellently as a controller, the other was a lockdown god. 
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3 months ago  ::  Feb 13, 2013 - 9:33AM #148
SteeleButterfly
Date Joined: Nov 19, 2007
Posts: 738

Feb 8, 2013 -- 7:51PM, crazy_monkey wrote:

First, let's remember to avoid edition wars in this thread.  Favorite versions doesn't mean you need to bash other editions.  Thanks.


Assassin - 2e
Bard - 1e
Cleric - 5e
Druid - 1e
Fighter - 2e
Monk - 5e
Paladin - 1e
Ranger - 1e
Rogue - 3e
Wizard - 1e

In memory of wrecan and his Unearthed Wrecana.

5e should strongly stay away from "I don't like it, so you can't have it either."
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3 months ago  ::  Feb 13, 2013 - 9:46AM #149
Lawolf
Date Joined: May 4, 2008
Posts: 4,222
It is interesting to note that while 4e has the greatest combined support on these forums of any edition, the pre-4e crowd is actually larger overall. This would indicate that the overall bias of these forums is actually geared toward pre 4e D&D.
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3 months ago  ::  Feb 13, 2013 - 9:50AM #150
wrecan
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One could also point out that WotC fans outnumber TSR-era fans!  Fun with statistics!
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