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First:  I absolutely and completely agree with the premise:  Maneuver using characters should be able to learn new maneuvers, just as wizards can learn new spells.



I would suggest the following limitations on this process:


1)  Learning the new spell or maneuver need not be automatic.  It used to require an intelligence check to learn a new spell.  It also can be automatic.  However if it is automatic for the wizard, it should be automatic for the fighter, and vice-versa.  And making it an intelligence check for both classes is not an acceptable approach because intelligence checks are not equivalent for both classes.


2)  This obviously requries them to create many more maneuvers.  On the other hand, it also means that at least some of the maneuvers can be less generically useful/ more specialized.  Reason:  When you only get a few maneuvers, they have all got to be really awesome to justify taking up the limited 'character building resources' alloted to the character.  When the number of maneuvers you can learn is less restrictive  - and when you can gain them though gameplay and don't need to expend any 'character building resources' on them, the system can afford to have less generically awesome maneuvers (and spells) because you aren't giving anything up by learning them.


3)  The maneuvers ought to be organized into tiers (as are spells).  The rationale for that was spelled out in an earlier thread, so I'll just quote myself to save time:

Jan 31, 2013 -- 11:58PM, CarlT wrote:

The argument for tiered lists is indirect.  But I think the game would be better off with them.
First - despite the fact that spells get more powerful with the spell level they are cast at, they are still separated into tiered lists (base spell level).
But the reason I think this is a good thing is not a question of balance.  It is a question of perception and gameplay.
I think it is a good thing to have abilities you can't do now because of your level.  It gives extra meaning to the levels when you gain them.  If you can know any number of maneuvers - but those maneuvers are not tiered, as you go up levels, what does that really mean?  Sure - you get another maneuver.  But if you can also learn them outside of the leveling system, that is a pretty hollow gain.   And sure, the maneuvers themselves get a bit more effective - but just as with gaining a plus to hit or some more hit points, that isn't a very satisying gain either (hence all of the complaints about 'empty levels'.
But if the maneuvers are tiered -  if there are maneuvers you just can't do until you reach level 5 (or whatever) - leveling means a little bit more.  It means that you don't just do whatever a little bit better, you learn to do things you couldn't do before.
And the decision of what maneuvers to put into what tier can be nearly arbitrary (just as the decision to leave fireball as a level 3 spell and cone of cold as a level 4 spell is an arbitrary (if traditional) approach.  They could just have easily made them both level 1 spells and scaled the damage down appropriately for the lower spell level slots.
And this is why I think that if they change how maneuvers are gained and allow them to be gained outside of the leveling mechanics (i.e through tomes or trainers), I think they should also group them into tiers.
Carl  

4)  Finally - I hadn't really considered the issue of "preparation" before.  I can see the argument for it - but I don't believe it is necessary for maneuvers.  Ultimately, I think it will depend on how powerful and useful maneuvers become, but I strongly suspect that the limiting nature of the mundane when compared to the world-bending flexibility of magic is such that fighter's don't actually need the additional restriction of having to prepare maneuvers.  Essentially - magic and spells are such that a wizard can do nearly literally anything with spells; given access to their full list of spells at all times would mean that they always have the perfect solution to every problem ready at hand.  In contrast - even in the best of worlds, maneuvers are likely to still be very limited and situational.   And even if they have access to the full list of maneuvers - they are still not going to be the swiss army knife that is a wizard.  Ultimately - they are still just coming up variations on weapon combat.  So they do not need this limitation.


Carl

Feb 1, 2013 -- 8:49AM, Caeric wrote:

I agree, but martial characters would need to prepare their maneuvers. That's how wizards offset that benefit -- whether or not they know just 8 spells or 30 spells, they can still only prepare 1 + class level per day. It improves versatility but not power, knowing more spells. Or perhaps that's already how it's supposed to work, since dice are fixed (much like spell slots)?

Wizards also offset the benefit by having higher level spells that have greater effects. If all a Fighter's manoeuvres have approximately the same power, then I don't see the same reason to restrict learning them. "Unconquered Bulwark", "God-Smiting Outrage", or "Cosmos-Slaying Glory Blade" are another matter, and should probably be restricted in use at least as much as high level spells are. I'll suggest to the people who want 'realism', stabbing someone through the heart is a near-instant death to an enemy with a heart, and is hardly unrealistic - just difficult.

Feb 1, 2013 -- 8:57AM, Mithrus wrote:

This road will only lead to madness, but I'd be fine with it existing as a module. I agree conceptually that anyone should be able to learn new stuff over time, which is thematically opposed to concepts such as XP and character levels. IF we allow casters to learn new spells between levels, then I agree it needs to happen for non-casters as well, but IMO I'd rather see that occur only on level up.

Maybe it would be easier just to stop casters learning spells except when they level up. Though I imagine that wouldn't be popular.

As long as the base amount expected to be known is reduced (so it actually matters and you actively want to look for maneuvers to expand your options), then I'm all for it.


I love searching out new spells as a wizard.  I see no reason to deny fighter players that fun.  We just need to reduce the base to make sure balance is maintained.  (Note that I'm not sure exactly how many spells per level Next wizards gain at the moment.  I'm thinking of the 3.X wizard which automatically gains two spells per level, which is enough to barely scrape by, but you really badly want more.  If Next wizards get too much more than that atm I'd want theirs to be reduced too.)

Feb 2, 2013 -- 4:22PM, ShinQuickMan wrote:

Wizards start with 3 spells, and learn a new one with each Wizard level (Scholarly Wizards get more). And I'd argue that "fighter needs manuevers, badly" at the moment...

I'd be totally ok with fighters who start with 3 maneuvers and learn 1 per level automatically and can learn more unrestrictedly as long as they find them in-game somehow.


I'd want there to be at least 40 maneuvers total for that to work, but in my opinion, there can never be enough options.

Basically, for both fighters and wizards (and anyone else with this mechanic), I want the automatic progression to give you enough to scrape by with finding them in-game to give you more options.  Now that I think of it with the current maneuver progression 3 + 1/level would probably be too much, because there aren't advanced maneuvers like there are higher level spells.  A wizard can't just keep casting magic missile with his 7th-level slots, he needs a 7th-level spell.  So I'd want to see a slightly slower progression for fighters, or higher level maneuvers.  Either one would solve the problem.