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4 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 5:13AM
#31
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2012
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Without a clarification I'm not entirely sure how the discussion can go forward. I mean, does it use a casting slot or doesn't it? What's the purpose of rituals in the magic system as a whole? If they take up a casting slot and a prepared slot (and it seems to me after looking it up myself that they do), I really don't see the point of them.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 5:15AM
#32
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Date Joined:
Apr 10, 2009
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Is it "rules lawyering" to point out that a rule that many are assuming to be the case is explicitely not stated anywhere in the rules?
It's not a matter of interpretation - the rule just doesn't exist.
It should exist. That is how I believe rituals should work. That is how rituals now work at my table.
But the rules as written neither state nor imply that that is how they do work.
Thus we can either discuss gameplay with the understanding that 'rituals do not exhaust a daily slot' is a good houserule and one that ought to be incorporated into the game - and how that would affect the game OR we can discuss gameplay with the understanding that 'rituals for most characters - except for scholarly wizards - must both be prepared and exhaust a daily slot and thus server no conceivable purpose' and provide feedback on that basis.
Of the two, the former is the more interesting discussion - especially as regards the scholarly wizard and whether that build is already powerful enough and thus does not need anything to compensate (as may well be the case).
Carl
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4 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 5:47AM
#33
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Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2012
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@kadim we move forward by acknowledging that it is probably an oversight and moving on with the proper ruling because tweets will back it up and if they don't, the discussion isn't lost. This thread isn't about the current packet anyway and about what we could do. It is Next, let's make it ours! @CarlT Agreed. The former is the only one that makes any sense to discuss and thus, we should discuss it! However, this thread is about what we could do. So what we could do, is think about how rituals could be awesome. They can't be awesome if they take up a spell slot. So let's move on from that!
Since the whole thing doesn't make sense to take up word count in the playtest with out the "ruling" that rituals do not use up spell slots, we should move forward with what does make sense, which is that they do not use up spell slots when cast as rituals. Getting stagnated by 'what is' can really limit innovation and growth. Let's look forward to 'what should be.' If all of us rules edit this rule so that they don't use up a spell slot (and trust me, they don't), then it is not useful to discuss the fact that the rules don't say that. Let's look forward at some cool things that perhaps rituals could allow other classes to do to help with versatility in their cases.
Currently running a playtest, weekly, online D&D Next Session using a virtual table system called roll20.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 6:18AM
#34
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Date Joined:
Dec 11, 2006
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We have been allowing any class to cast rituals, with a DC 15 INT check to recite the words correctly and perform the ritual. Arcane classes (Wizard currently) do not need to make a DC. Cleric (Arcanist) also have no need for a DC on Wizard rituals. Characters with an appropriate skill can add it to the roll. (Arcana, Forbidden Lore, etc)
This is not because of any rule statement, simply because of a flavor we prefer. Same works with spell scrolls. Failure to make the DC causes the scroll to crumble to dust. Failure to cast the ritual from a book by 5 or more, causes the page to crumble to dust.
Browncoats Unite...
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4 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 6:20AM
#35
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Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2012
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@Phobos Sounds like a neat way to handle it. Do you ever feel like it gives any class too much extra versatility or makes playing a wizard pointless? (These are two arguments used against this method by a few in my camps.)
Currently running a playtest, weekly, online D&D Next Session using a virtual table system called roll20.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 6:20AM
#36
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Possibility: a feat is required to gain "ritual casting" as a non-caster. Which might loosen some of the other int requirements and the like.
+1
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4 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 6:42AM
#37
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2012
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I still don't think rituals should replicate spells at all, at least not as their basis. I think they should be totally different from spells and have nothing to do at all with casts, slots or even specific written spells. Otherwise, I'll just have the spell and be done.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 6:56AM
#38
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Date Joined:
Dec 11, 2006
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@Phobos Sounds like a neat way to handle it. Do you ever feel like it gives any class too much extra versatility or makes playing a wizard pointless? (These are two arguments used against this method by a few in my camps.)
Normally this get's used more often when we don't have an actual Wizard. It often is used for "utility" items such as comprehend, identify, etc. So it never really replaces a true Wizards "power", at least combat wise.
We have a rogue that invested in Knowledge Arcana, and bought a "utility" spellbook, to go with his background of a Treasure Hunter. We don't allow him to transcribe scrolls into the book, so he saves them and pays the local college to do so for him. His benefactor sometimes does as well for the job.
Browncoats Unite...
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4 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 7:02AM
#39
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Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2012
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@Phobos I think this can make a lot of sense. It matches the old 'scroll use' or 'emulate class' abilities that rogues sometimes have. However, with backgrounds/specialties/feats, it might make sense as well. Thanks for the info Phobos.
@kadim I can definitely understand what you mean there. The idea of 'classes' of rituals or rituals with more than one person is pretty interesting and appealing too. However, in terms of producing playtest content, it kinda makes sense to start with duplicating spells. Maybe we'll see some growth in this area at another time. Or perhaps as a modular piece!
Currently running a playtest, weekly, online D&D Next Session using a virtual table system called roll20.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 7:06AM
#40
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Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2005
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IMO, only rituals should use/require material components. That is one sure way to control their (ab)use, especially if they require a DM-controllable reagent, so they can be as common or rare as needed by the campaign.
Magic Dual Color Test
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