|
4 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 2:36AM
#21
|
Date Joined:
Jun 28, 2006
|
Academic wizards still get to use rituals that haven't prepared (as long as the spell is in their spellbook).
That said, this is a stupid change that ruins most of the point of rituals. It's just like the packet before it that took away at-will cantrips and only gave them in limited fashion, based on your tradition. Thankfully, they reversed themselves on that one. Now we need to convince them to undo this ritual casting change.
Actually - I like the change. It just needs to give a reason to use a ritual.
I don't. The whole point of rituals, starting in 4e and originally in Next, was that you could use them without preparing them in advance. This rule change completely defeats the entire point of having rituals in the game at all. It also makes it impossible to give rituals to other classes via feats, because they have no spell slots to prepare them with.
If rituals didn't cost a slot - it would fix the problem.
I'm confused. You said you liked this idea, but not requiring a preparation slot would return rituals to how they were to begin with. Unless you mean some other kind of spell slot, but that doesn't make any sense, since rituals don't use up spells per day, and I have no idea what other kind of "slot" you could be referring to.
The academic wizard gets a big boost (although some will argue they don't need a boost outside of combat) and the other classes have a reason to prepare those ritual spells.
This makes the academic wizard so much better than the other traditions that it isn't even funny.
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 2:40AM
#22
|
Date Joined:
Apr 10, 2009
|
If rituals didn't cost a slot - it would fix the problem.
I'm confused. You said you liked this idea, but not requiring a preparation slot would return rituals to how they were to begin with. Unless you mean some other kind of spell slot, but that doesn't make any sense, since rituals don't use up spells per day, and I have no idea what other kind of "slot" you could be referring to.
Casting spell slot.
"rituals don't use up spells per day"
It does not state this anywhere in the rules that I am aware of - and a strict reading would imply that this is not true (although I suspect it is what was intended).
Carl
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 2:54AM
#23
|
Date Joined:
Oct 18, 2009
|
Yes, the How to Play document says rituals don't need to be prepared. However, it also says: Prerequisite: You cannot cast a spell as a ritual unless you have a special ability or a class feature that lets you do so. So, you need the class feature to use rituals. And if this class feature says the spell needs to be prepared, then I believe the preparing restriction "wins" here, you need the spell prepared to use its ritual version (unless you're scholar wizard). With that and having to spend spell slots casting them, there's no advantage on using the ritual version of most spells, just drawbacks.
[<o>]
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 2:58AM
#24
|
Date Joined:
May 24, 2012
|
There seems to be some misunderstanding of the intention and function of the mechanic in this thread, so I will do my job as 'he who understands just about everything' and clarify how I interpret it, which I believe is the correct interpretation.
A spell with a ritual version gives it an out-of-combat edge. Rituals do NOT use up daily spell slots; rather, they allow you to expend TIME instead of magical potential.
Why prepare rituals? Because it allows a player (and by extension their group) to benefit greatly from planning ahead. Know you're going up against debuffing wraith undead? The cleric prepares Restoration. They can use their slots to heal everyone up during the fight, or wait until after the havoc is taken care of, hole up with their party, and turn your fighter's maximum hit points from 2 to 130.
Let's use a lower level example: Remove Curse. You're dealing with a mummy tomb and there's curses everywhere. Ten minutes of the wizard's time (about a short rest) will get rid of one of those curses at no cost to anyone. A wizard who is not a scholastic preparing this spell gets to throw as many fireballs at those pesky mummies as they have slots, and STILL REMOVE THE CURSES.
Scholastics stand out in being the master of these incredibly arcane rituals, not needing to prepare them ahead of time. Instead it's a hunt for finding the right spell scrolls to learn the spells in question, or choosing wisely with your two spells when you level up.
The biggest benefit of the 'prepared spells do not equal spell slots' change introduced in december is that you can prepare a ritual and never cast it as a spell. It opens up strategic options for using your daily allotment of spell slots and spell preparation. Spellcasters who utilize their preparation intelligently can kick the ass of the monsters AND the locked doors and the curses. It's part of the 'batman utility belt.' Batman brings some explosive batarangs for split-second detonation, and some explosive gel for those more detailed jobs.
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 3:00AM
#25
|
Date Joined:
Apr 10, 2009
|
There seems to be some misunderstanding of the intention and function of the mechanic in this thread, so I will do my job as 'he who understands just about everything' and clarify how I interpret it, which I believe is the correct interpretation.
Rituals do NOT use up daily spell slots; rather, they allow you to expend TIME instead of magical potential.
Although this may be (probably is) the intent, where in the rules is this stated?
Carl
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 3:07AM
#26
|
Date Joined:
May 24, 2012
|
Let's look at the 'How to Play' document.
Aside from the bit about rituals that is conflicted by the class mechanics (Class mechanics win out every time), casting a ritual takes:
1. The ability to cast rituals from your class. (The class further states what is required to cast the rituals, such as it being prepared)
2. Time.
3. Any material components the spells need. If it takes 100gp of diamond dust to cast Restoration, the ritual version takes that too.
No indication that it takes a spell slot whatsoever. All it says is TIME.
Now, let's look at the classes.
Cleric: You can cast any spell you have prepared as a ritual, provided that spell has a ritual version. No indication that it takes a spell slot.
Wizard: You can cast any spell you have prepared as a ritual, provided that spell has a ritual version. No indication that it takes a spell slot.
Scholarly Wizard, Ritual Caster: You can cast any spell you have in your spellbook as a ritual, provided that spell has a ritual version. No indication that it takes a spell slot.
The intention from the start was that rituals did not burn up daily spell casting. Perhaps this needs to be hammered home more, but that's how it works.
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 3:15AM
#27
|
Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2012
|
I love the concept of rituals but I've hated how they're used in D&D from day 1. I actually want rituals to do something totally different. I want them to be especially powerful spells that exceed the caster's ability. I don't actually want them to be spells even. I'd rather have them be improvised magical effects (all I seem to be doing lately is bang on about improv, sorry in advance) that gain strength by orders of magnitude with the amount of time and resources put into them. I want them to be ability driven and feat enabled with some classes gaining the ability to use ritual techniques when it's thematically appropriate. And I want a ritualist class.
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 3:24AM
#28
|
Date Joined:
Apr 10, 2009
|
Let's look at the 'How to Play' document.
Aside from the bit about rituals that is conflicted by the class mechanics (Class mechanics win out every time), casting a ritual takes:
1. The ability to cast rituals from your class. (The class further states what is required to cast the rituals, such as it being prepared)
2. Time.
3. Any material components the spells need. If it takes 100gp of diamond dust to cast Restoration, the ritual version takes that too.
No indication that it takes a spell slot whatsoever. All it says is TIME.
Now, let's look at the classes.
Cleric: You can cast any spell you have prepared as a ritual, provided that spell has a ritual version. No indication that it takes a spell slot.
Wizard: You can cast any spell you have prepared as a ritual, provided that spell has a ritual version. No indication that it takes a spell slot.
Scholarly Wizard, Ritual Caster: You can cast any spell you have in your spellbook as a ritual, provided that spell has a ritual version. No indication that it takes a spell slot.
The intention from the start was that rituals did not burn up daily spell casting. Perhaps this needs to be hammered home more, but that's how it works.
But it doesn't state that anywhere.
Now lets look at what it does say.
You can cast any spell you have prepard as a ritual, provided that spell has a ritual version.
OR
A ritual is a version of a spell that takes longer to cast and sometimes requires special materials. The advantage of casting a spell as a ritual is that you do not have to prepare the spell ahead of time. The drawback is that completing a ritual takes several minutes, if not hours.
...
When you cast a spell, choose one of your prepared spells and expend a spell slot of that spell’s level or higher. Some spells have improved effects when they are cast at higher levels. After you cast the spell, you lose the use of the slot you expended until you prepare spells again, but you still have the spell prepared.
Nothing in there states or implies that it does not take a daily use slot. Rather, it uses the same terminology "casting a spell" and casting a spell explicitely does require you to expend a slot. The benefit clearly addresses the need to prepare a spell (which was then taken away in the later version) - not whether or not the spell expends a slot.
Just to be clear - your interpretation was my interpretation until this was brought up in other threads - at which point I went all the way back through the packets to see what it really said. And I think that your interpretation is likely the intent. But is it clearly not stated anywhere and thus we cannot clearly state that that is how the rules intent.
If this were the clear intent, I would expect the rules to state: The advantage of casting a spell as a ritual is that it does not expend a daily use slot.
Sounds like we need another tweet from Mearls.
Carl
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 5:10AM
#29
|
|
|
I don't dislike giving everyone the ability to cast them if they know them, without using a slot.
But if they do that, do we need to give Scholarly Wizards a new perk?
The scholar wizard can already prepare more spells per day then other traditions and they have more garunteed spells in their spellbook then the other tradtions. I think that is quite fine already, and is probably too powerful all by itself.
|
|
|
|
4 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 5:10AM
#30
|
Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2012
|
For the purposes of this thread, let's work on that notion rituals work in the current packet like listed below and go from there. There have been useful discussions, but the rules lawyering isn't one of them. We can all agree clarification in a final print would be required.
Casters can all cast their spells as rituals if they have them prepared.
Casting a spell as a ritual, doesn't use a spell slot.
Academic/Scholar wizards can cast any spell in their spellbook as a ritual.
Let's pull it back on topic from there.
Currently running a playtest, weekly, online D&D Next Session using a virtual table system called roll20.
|
|
|
