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4 months ago ::
Jan 30, 2013 - 9:03AM
#31
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Date Joined:
Jul 18, 2007
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Can you expand upon this more please, because "I hit it" is not enough for a class since you could play that by creating a character and simply not picking a class or you can pick basically any class and then ignore whatever abilities it has and simply attack with a weapon.
I don't think I should have to ignore abilities to get the mechanical basis I want out a D&D fighter.
The "I hit it" fighter should be defined as follows:
Has the best chance to hit in melee.
Has the widest array of weapon and armor proficiences available.
Does the most damage in melee.
Has lots of hit points.
Has the ability to spec in a weapon, which no other class gets. This should push their chance to hit and damage even higher.
Has great saves.
Doesn't have to worry about daily or per encounter abilities.
Doesn't have to rely on magic items to be effective, since the above abilities should be enough.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 30, 2013 - 9:05AM
#32
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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Please, can't we just let fighters have a toy of their own?
In short: No.
Not because we don't want to. Not because they don't deserve nice things. But because due to the wretchedly ineffective "identity" we've given the Fighter, they're always going to be in a situation where anything cool for them is cool for everyone.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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4 months ago ::
Jan 30, 2013 - 9:06AM
#33
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I agree. Personally I'd like fighters to reflect how hard and difficult their training is. If becoming a fighter is easy and intuitive, then they should be able to get extra skills due to the free time. A bonus background. If being a fighter is hard and fighters are really the best of the best, then they need a massive power boost. Make them truly overpowered in combat. More HP. More damage. Infinite parries.
Make fighters more powerful? More powerful than their 17 minimum, up to 58+ damage every round at level 11? With a great AC and high attack mods? Martial damage already needs a good rethink. The insanity of the consistant damage output at higher levels makes a laughing stock of even the strongest creatures.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 30, 2013 - 9:06AM
#34
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Date Joined:
Feb 12, 2009
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Please, can't we just let fighters have a toy of their own?
In short: No.
Not because we don't want to. Not because they don't deserve nice things. But because due to the wretchedly ineffective "identity" we've given the Fighter, they're always going to be in a situation where anything cool for them is cool for everyone.
pretty much
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4 months ago ::
Jan 30, 2013 - 9:07AM
#35
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Date Joined:
Oct 17, 2007
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Yes, the 'fighter' thing bugs me as well. It's never gonna change, being a sacred cow and all, but for the sake of discussion:
We could by using a better term for it, as 'fighter' means everything and nothing; warrior would be a step forward already, or weaponmaster maybe (like the 4E renaming of the PHB fighter as a subclass).
I think the class should represent the archetype of someone who has been effectively trained to fight with martial weapons (and armors) and keeps honing his skills with constant practice and dedication. While a ranger, a barbarian or a rogue may be self-taught in the art of war, this class should be a professional when it comes to it.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 30, 2013 - 9:08AM
#36
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Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2005
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Wizards don't need it. They will have rituals like Legend Lore (Int), Locate Object (Wis), and Friends (Cha). Please, can't we just let fighters have a toy of their own?
They would be. Sharing a similar mechanic doesn't take away anything from the fighter. Granted, perhaps the magical classes shouldn't get ALL of the mental abilities, but perhaps they pick their favored ability.
Martial: Gain extra skill die with Strength, Constitution, and Dexterity checks
Magical: Gain extra die with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma checks (pick one)
Mixed: Pick two abilities. Gain extra skill die on those ability checks.
Magic Dual Color Test
Show
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4 months ago ::
Jan 30, 2013 - 9:14AM
#37
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Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2004
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You have the martial classes
Fighter, Cavalier, Paladin, Barbarian, Ranger. These are the only classes that get multiple attacks, not necessarily at the same rate. These classes gain increased critical hit chances, 20 at level 1, 19-20 at level 4, 18-20 at level 8.... These classes are the only ones that can learn combat maneuvers. The only classes that can specialize in weapons or have weapons of choice.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 30, 2013 - 9:18AM
#38
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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Wizards don't need it. They will have rituals like Legend Lore (Int), Locate Object (Wis), and Friends (Cha). Please, can't we just let fighters have a toy of their own?
They would be. Sharing a similar mechanic doesn't take away anything from the fighter.
It totally takes away form the fioghter. moreover, it accomplishes nothing. Wizards already have an advantage on Intelligence checks because they've probably got the highest Int in the party. Same with clerics and Wisdom and bards and Charisma. They don't need the boost. It adds nothing to the class.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 30, 2013 - 9:20AM
#39
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Date Joined:
May 24, 2012
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Wizards don't need it. They will have rituals like Legend Lore (Int), Locate Object (Wis), and Friends (Cha). Please, can't we just let fighters have a toy of their own?
They would be. Sharing a similar mechanic doesn't take away anything from the fighter.
It totally takes away form the fioghter. moreover, it accomplishes nothing. Wizards already have an advantage on Intelligence checks because they've probably got the highest Int in the party. Same with clerics and Wisdom and bards and Charisma. They don't need the boost. It adds nothing to the class.
Sadly, its just too darn natural for it to be stuck with one class. How can you deny a Red Robed Wizard and his buddies a Faction?
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4 months ago ::
Jan 30, 2013 - 9:21AM
#40
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Date Joined:
Jun 24, 2005
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You touched on a bunch of stuff that I have been monaing about WHAT!?
 
Hold on, hear me out.
The Fighter is not a class. It's basically a Commoner Plus. Why do I say this? Just look at the different characterizations of the fighter: best at fighting, wears the best armor and weapons. But these don't really mean anything in the context of an actual game. Everyone fights, even the Wizard. Ray of Frost or Shocking Grasp are not functionally very different from a bow or a sword, and I certainly don't think you can call what the wizard is doing when he uses those spells not "fighting." So given that everyone has baseline combat potential, what does "best at fighting" mean? Exactly nothing.
Wotc even lets them shoot frost and grab people with int as a modifier. It’s a superficial definition of class. Few agreed with me that Wizards should have access to combat maneuvers because it supposedly infringes on the fighter when the Wizard already has a bow in a sword.
Wears the best armor and weapons is equally meaningless. It tells you about as much about the Fighter class as "dude who wears a dress and carries a large stick of wood" does about the Wizard, which is - again - exactly nothing. The Rogue can fight effectively using the worst weapons and armor, and the Barbarian can fight effectively using no armor at all. So what's the point, really, of those extra proficiencies? Not a whole lot.
I called for treating armor like utility items instead of career paths attached to dex and to drastically lower the price. This would make the ftr the armor monkey as the rogue is the skill monkey. I’ve also called for weapon proficiencies since they would stand out so much with bounded accuracy.
The Fighter is completely hollow. It has no soul, no core, no true expression of who it is and why. Is it a soldier? A pirate? A palace guard? A mafia enforcer? A random goblin in a cave? An orc raider? A human farmer who picks up a scythe? All of the above, and none of the above. Fighter is that blanket category that gets applied to people we can't think of a cool class for, the boring mediocrity that we default to when there's nothing else particularly noteworthy that would justify calling them something else.
Wow am I on your ignore list? That is exactly what I was talking about with Fire Emblem. Fire Emblem does a much better job of simulating pirates, knights, swordsmen, heroes, dragon knights, fighters, berserkers, or just martial classes in general without maneuvers. Nothing is uniform in fire Emblem. Even at the same level they all have different accuracy, damage, damage reduction, critical defense, critical rate, evading ability, attack speed, and weapon proficiencies.
No edition has ever fixed this problem. Some have tried to get the fighter into a mechanical niche, but that only goes so far. 3e tried Fighter-only feats, but the core structure of the Fighter was still pretty much just "Commoner, but a little better." 4e had a great mechanical niche for the fighter, it's one of the best classes in the edition with huge depth and an enormous number of possible builds. But none of that gave it a soul, none of it really demonstrated "Wow, being a fighter is awesome, look at me!" Sure, it was potent, effective, and fun to play, but it didn't convey the identity that other classes did. Rather, it just ended up being the class that everybody else who uses weapons took as a multiclass to get behind the mechanical Fighters Only wall to enhance what they were doing already.
It wasnt built in it was built on. If it was soulless that was why.
What do we do about this? I don't know. In a certain sense there is only one way forward: they're not going to pull the Fighter, there has to be some niche for the Boring Guy, and so we continue the goal of making it mechanically interesting hoping that our Frankenstein's monster can be granted a soul if we patch together enough shiny toys. We can arbitrarily and completely nonsensically restrict things to only Fighters, despite the fact that it's easy to argue that other classes could do the same thing. In other words, more of the same.
But I really, really wish there were another way to go. Maybe one of you can suggest one. How about this: what have other games, tabletop or otherwise, done with the rough sketch that is the "Fighter concept" and how did they make it into something compelling?
I’m creating a pseudo code example of a 20th level ftr and Monk. Here is a preview of the ftrs. These are two guys that Ed Greenwood called the best swordsmen in the Forgotten Realms. They are based on Vitali Kiltchko and Floyd Mayweather.
Harmel Artru lvl 20
HP 54 (42)
STR 15
Dex 20
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 9
Cha 9
Evade 22 (23)
WA (4 bonus) 9 (11 with swords) -1 with light armor
DR 5 -3 natural -2 light armor
Attack Speed 37 -2 light armor +6 with short sword
Damage Short sword 1d8 + 5 or 1d10 +5 longsword uses long sword when its lighter with Celestial properties
Reaction 20 able to add +1 to Evade with buckler
Resistance 4
Crit Range 17/ 15 with one handed swords
Crit Defense 3
Speed 40 feet
Fumble -10 to reaction
Traits: Lanky, Measured, Jealous Magic, Weapon Breaker
Blessing Tempus Touch, Fame, Rot Talker
Traits
Lanky
-1 to str and con. Can use non reach weapons at reach
Jealous Magic
Prerec 15 or more in str and dex. Has one chance at disadvantage to attune weapon. If player makes doesn’t not attune a weapon by level 10 can take Tempus Touch
Tempus Touch
Mundane weapons have +1 to hit/ damage Celestial properties when attuned
Rot Talk- Constant insults wear at opponents. Win a cha contest or lose a combat surge
Fame LVl 3- +3 to charisma attracts 10 lvls of followers
Measured
+5 speed loses all attacks after natural 1
Man/Feats
Defensive Attack-. If landed does half damage improves Evade by 2 against opponent.
Critical Reaction- +2 to crit on reactions
Feeling Attack- If landed does 0 damage but learns opponents EV and DR
Martial Defense Feat Lvl 2- +3 natural DR
Int parry w feeling attack feat
+3 to int contest. If won adds +3 to DR and damage
Unshakable Lvl 3 immune to Rogue tricks, +3 to Wis, and Int saves,
Survivor lvl 2 +5 hp +2 crit defense
Skills
Entertainer Loaros Hammarandar lvl 20
a broad-shouldered, grim giant of a man who can hurl his prodigious strength and bulk around like an acrobat,
HP 59 (43) STR 19
Dex 17
Con 17
Int 16
Wis 9
Cha 14
Evade (22) 19 -3 masterwork heavy armor
WA (4 bonus) 9 (10 with two handed swords) -2 with masterwork plate -1 with helm DR 5/6/8 blunt/pierce/slash masterwork plate
Attack Speed 26 -5 masterwork heavy armor +1 with twohanded sword
Damage Short sword Two handed sword 2d8 +8
Reaction 12
Resistance 7
Crit Range 18/ 17 with two-handed
Crit Defense 2/3 with helmet
Speed 30 feet
Fumble -10 to reaction
Traits: Tall, Fame, Twin
Tall- -2 to dex, can use any weapon with reach
Fame LVl 3- +3 to charisma attracts 10 lvls of followers
Twin
Learn from thy sibling. Start each level with 100xp.
Feats
Efficient Lvl 4- Does not tire from Maneuvers with +50% hp.
Maneuvers
Parry Reaction-Able to block on successful attack roll
Shove Away- If an opponent is within range of a grapple able to tie them up and push them back out of range.
Combo Attack- After landing one attack has plus +2 in accuracy and +5 in damage on the second.
Bull Rush
Guarded Retreat –Back away from range with +5 to reaction.
Skills
Healer, knowledge of anatomy
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