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Feb 2, 2013 -- 10:28AM, Mand12 wrote:

....What?

It's exactly a difference in power scale, specifically the rate at which power scales as each of the two classes level.  It's not a myth, it's a mathematical fact.

The crippled class getting a quadratic amount of crutches each level, regardless of the power of those crutches, does not make him more powerful than the fighter.

At this point I've lost patience with your disruption of my thread.  This thread is about the conceptual failing of the Fighter class as it currently stands and how to fix it.  If you want to go put your head in the sand and pretend it's not a problem that's fine, but you can do it somewhere else.

And I've lost patience with your arrogance and determination to continue spouting this nonsense. There is no conceptual failing of the fighter.

Feb 2, 2013 -- 10:47AM, SleepsInTraffic wrote:

Feb 2, 2013 -- 9:02AM, Mand12 wrote:

Feb 2, 2013 -- 12:04AM, SleepsInTraffic wrote:

Wheel of Time

This is a perfect example of how massive disparities between magic-users and the rest of the scrubs can still lead to dramatic storytelling.

However we're not just about telling a dramatic story from one point of view.  Wheel of Time is a novel.  It's one author's point of view, one author's story.  It doesn't matter what a non-magic character's player feels when his character gets neutralized by weaves of Air.  There's no person behind that character. 

D&D, on the other hand, is a collaborative storytelling experience.  A PC is a player character.  There's an actual breathing human being involved controlling that character.  And we make certain sacrifices about what could be a great storytelling environment, like the Wheel of Time setting, in order to moderate the inter-player disputes, frustration, and disappointment that such a setting can produce. 

To the people continuing to defend casters rule / fighters drool, I really don't think you understand what it means for the people I'm talking about to have their character suck despite all their best efforts.  You've bought into the system, you even play fighters in the system, you know and accept their second-class place in the world.  But the people I'm talking about haven't.  They thought that when we embarked on this grand adventure to tell a group story, that their part would be the same validity as everyone else's at the table.  But instead, they're presented with none of their choices making a damn bit of difference except for their (bad) choice of class.  It doesn't matter that I got high Dex, some Thieves' Tools, and spent time training, because the Wizard just comes along and hits Knock.  Guts the character.  It's this aspect, the feeling that all the effort you spent into creating your character, which is actually only a means to creating the story rather than an end in itself, just doesn't matter.  The feeling that even paying attention rather than making another beer and cheetos run just doesn't matter.

Until you've felt this feeling or seen someone else feel it, you can't understand it.  And it's incredibly patronizing and condescending to just say that these people aren't creative enough. 

Your correct I need not validate my self through my characters.  I don't care if my character is the most awesome on the table because I already know I'm awesome.  I Don't need my character to validate that for me.

Knock doesn't gut the character unless two things happen,

The wizard character uses it all the time even knowing the rogue could handle that.  

Nyeh when its more reliable than the rogue... to wave a cheap wand at it.. the rogue might as well not be there... 

When the spell caster is the one you turn to, to do it better! that is also trash.... in effect when it is most important .. you use mage - mans ability. 
 

Feb 2, 2013 -- 10:47AM, SleepsInTraffic wrote:

Your correct I need not validate my self through my characters.  I don't care if my character is the most awesome on the table because I already know I'm awesome.  I Don't need my character to validate that for me.

This is a point that needs repeating, but the people you're preaching to refuse to listen.

I think we're trying to "cram things into the class" because, as I thought was implied by my post, I would like my choice of class - one of the most significant character-building choices - to actually matter in 2/3rds of the game.

EDIT: To clarify, because I can see the response coming:

To "actually matter" in a fashion that invokes the archetype, that isn't just "nothing is something", and isn't just "roleplay it differently."


MOAREDIT: The assumption that bothers me, I think, is that every person who wants to play a Fighter is always making that choice (or should make the choice, or they're doing it wrong) just because they want to be "the best at combat".  Personally, and in my experience with other people, that isn't the case (not "every person", and not "always").  I'd go so far as to say that, again in my experience, that is pretty rarely the motivation.

Feb 2, 2013 -- 11:20AM, Maxperson wrote:

..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />Yes they do.  Time and again I've seen people say that all playstyles should be supported.  That playstyle is a BIG one and deserves support, even if you don't agree with it or like it.  A great many other people DO like it and the option should be there via module at the very least.

It's a strange day when we agree, Max.