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4 months ago ::
Jan 14, 2013 - 9:48AM
#61
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It is better to keep the math down by doing this. Each attack does 1[w] damage but characters get more attacks at higher levels.
I don't see them bringing back multi-attacks. It's horribly swingy (no pun intended) and multiple rolls slows combat down.
What do you mean by "swingy" in this context exactly?
I interpret that to mean that splitting damage between multiple attacks has a higher variance than trying to deal all the damage on one attack, which is precisely the opposite of the actual effect.
For example, 2 attacks at 50% to hit for d8 damage has a mean of 4.5 and a variance of 15.375, while 1 attack at 50% to hit for 2d8 damage has a mean of 4.5 and a variance of 25.5.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 14, 2013 - 9:48AM
#62
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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@wrecan
The drop in damage is not bad if reach and range are effective and shield go up to +2 AC. Add in some reach, shield, light, heavy, and thrown only maneuvers and the system can work even better.
Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds.
Constitution Based Class for Next!
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4 months ago ::
Jan 14, 2013 - 9:51AM
#63
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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Wrecan, your idea is a good way to maintain balance between weapons, but I think it makes the final version too complicated, especially for those who would roll 2d4+1 or 1d6+1d4 for each "MDD". Keeping track of 6d6 is one thing, keeping track of a number of d6s and d4s is another.
I agree. One way to avoid that is to key two-weapon fighting to the smaller weapon and give a +1 to damage. So two daggers is 2d4+1. Two shortswords is 2d6. (I don't think "2d4+1" as [w] is too complicated.)
Of course, right now we do have two different dice as weapons in the form of double weapons. The urgosh does 1d10+1d4 (median 8). The quarterstaff does d8+d6 (median 8).
Yeah, I guess 2d4 isn't bad, as long as people remember that they can't split them up.
Also, I don't think you will roll [W] for other maneuvers; it doesn't make any sense for the guy with the greatsword to get a better result from Defensive Roll compared to the guy with a dagger.
Heh I actually do they are extremely useful for fending off an enemy ... you are trained that maintaining the weapon between you and your enemy is your primary defense.
Sure, but that sounds more like Parry (which might make sense to use the damage die of the weapon, as long as a Shield gives you a bonus).
Ah you mean the maneuver defensive roll.. not a defensive roll.... ok.. got ya.
Why would a greatsword result in less damage from a fireball or lightning bolt?
Well I am inclined to allow a magical weapon to be useful to parry the lightning bolt... when the user is high enough level.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 14, 2013 - 9:56AM
#64
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mellored: Brutal slows the game down for minimal gain (especailly on d10 weapons).
Actually, it's only going to happen 1-in-10 hits. Even on a 4[w] roll, it happens 1-in-3 hits, which is like 1-in-5 attacks. It's no slower than the current advantage system, which is lauded for keeping things quick.
Math fail on my part.
I could see brutal working, if there was an attribute that only deserved a little bit of damage reduction, such as being able to throw it. But overall it still slows the game down.
mellored: Keen is not balanced. It could be, but it would be difficult.
How is it not balanced?
It adds...
6-3.5+3.5 * .05 = 0.3
8-4.5+4.5 * .05 = 0.4
It's even worse against low HP targets...
Against a 3 HP target and 75% chance to hit...
1d6 = 5% + (50% * 70%) = 40% kill chance
1d6 + keen = 10% + (50% * 65%) = 42.5% kill chance.
2.5% difference.
mellored: Light sounds too complicated. It should just add 1d4 to your main-hand attack.
Then your [w] would be d6+d4 is you weild a shortsword and dagger. [w]=2d4 is as simple as it gets and it lets you roll two dice for two-weapon fighting, which preserves the feel of weilding two weapons.
d6+d4 = 6.
Half a step behind 2-handed. Which seems good to me.
mellored: Versatile is ok. But i'm not sure it really helps anything.
It keeps damage balanced.
Have you ever has someone wish they could switch hands? (besides 4e swordmages, who swaped to attack, then swaped back for defense).
Unless there's some sort of swap cheese (4e swordmage), it's basicly a useless property.
mellored: Reach is too complicated, not to mention basicly a straight negitive with the current OA rules.
What's complicated about disadvantage against adjacent creatures? And, yes. It's a negative to make up for the increased damage that such weapons receive. Reach weapons are intended for use by the guy in the second row of a marching order and is then dropped when the monsters break through the first line.
Nothing for people using battlemats. But it's hard otherwise.
Also, the enemy can walk around the front line without provoking. Now your at disavantage, unless you spend an action to disengage.
What you effectivly have is a range 10' bow.
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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 14, 2013 - 9:57AM
#65
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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Parry should default to the shield damage.
No better.. the skill dice value. And using a shield ups the dice by 1.
Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds.
Constitution Based Class for Next!
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4 months ago ::
Jan 14, 2013 - 9:57AM
#66
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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It is better to keep the math down by doing this. Each attack does 1[w] damage but characters get more attacks at higher levels.
I don't see them bringing back multi-attacks. It's horribly swingy (no pun intended) and multiple rolls slows combat down.
What do you mean by "swingy" in this context exactly?
I mean that the variance between the two types of attacks is huge.
As you said: 2 attacks at 50% to hit for d8 damage has a ... variance of 15.375, while 1 attack at 50% to hit for 2d8 damage has ... a variance of 25.5.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 14, 2013 - 10:00AM
#67
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2003
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The impression I get is that every 1[w] can be split off to make an additional attack against a different target. So if a 10th level fighter dual-wielding short swords can do 4d6 to two separate targets (total 8d6 damage per round) or 1d6 to eight targets. Meanwhile, the greatsword fighter does 4d12 to one target or 1d12 to four targets. The damage itself is almost identical between the two styles, but 2H gets the edge in attacking a single, powerful foe (like a dragon), but 2WF effectively gets a localized AoE attack. If this assessment is accurate, then I don't see the problem here.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 14, 2013 - 10:00AM
#68
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It is better to keep the math down by doing this. Each attack does 1[w] damage but characters get more attacks at higher levels.
I don't see them bringing back multi-attacks. It's horribly swingy (no pun intended) and multiple rolls slows combat down.
What do you mean by "swingy" in this context exactly?
I mean that the variance between the two types of attacks is huge.
As you said: 2 attacks at 50% to hit for d8 damage has a ... variance of 15.375, while 1 attack at 50% to hit for 2d8 damage has ... a variance of 25.5.
Right, but multiple attacks bring a lower variance. So why are multi-attacks "horribly swingy"?
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4 months ago ::
Jan 14, 2013 - 10:03AM
#69
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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mellored: overall it still slows the game down.
Minimally. I find it more than acceptable.
mellored: It adds...
6-3.5+3.5 * .05 = 0.3
8-4.5+4.5 * .05 = 0.4
I only need to add around .5. .3 or .4 is plenty.
mellored: It's even worse against low HP targets...
Damage balance is less relevant against low-hp targets.
mellored: d6+d4 = 6. Half a step behind 2-handed. Which seems good to me.
It's still complicated. Several people in this thread complained about it. I even proposed d6+d4 and got a bunch of complaints immediately. Take it up with them. I'm tired of arguing with people who aren't reading the thread.
mellored: Have you ever has someone wish they could switch hands?
That's not what versatile does. It gives you +1 when weilding the weapon two-handed.
mellored: Nothing for people using battlemats. But it's hard otherwise.
Even people who don't use battlemats know the difference between adjacent and not adjacent.
mellored: Also, the enemy can walk around the front line without provoking. Now your at disavantage, unless you spend an action to disengage.
Or drop your polearm and pull your sword, just like we used to do in the Basic D&D that the basic ruleset is trying to replicate.
mellored: What you effectivly have is a range 10' bow.
That does d12 damage. A bow should do d8 at most.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 14, 2013 - 10:04AM
#70
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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Parry should default to the shield damage. No better.. the skill dice value..
I disagree...It is pretty simplistic for me to push aside 1 handed weapons parry... due to there lack of leverage and inferior reach.
I agree that shields need to rock.. though.
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