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6 months ago ::
Jan 04, 2013 - 9:11PM
#11
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And a cleric who doesn't choose Healing as a school doesn't become a different class either.
I, personally, wouldn't care about a cleric class. Don't like 'em, never liked 'em, wouldn't mind seeing them go away as a class concept. Martial, Arcane, Psionic is all I need for power sources. If someone wants to be a priest, they can just call themselves a priest.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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6 months ago ::
Jan 05, 2013 - 8:37AM
#12
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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What if we eliminated the seperation of divine/arcane and simply made the mage class (credit to a fellow in the D&D+supernatural=obsolete thread). His idea had 8 schools and only allowing someone to cast from 6 of them.
I proposed this a year and a half ago in my Long Division series. Except I had nine divisions and each class could cast only three of them. The benefit was that the cleric and paladin remained separate classes.
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6 months ago ::
Jan 05, 2013 - 8:55AM
#13
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Date Joined:
Jun 22, 2010
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As an exercise it would not hurt to break out each type of magic regardless if a cleric, wizard, psion, bard, etc. gets it in the long term as it helps determine what each class is good at. In the same sense they should take skills and break them out into categories so each class has a niche, as well as weapons and armor. Once all the core classes as addressed, then you can look at sub-classes or mulitclassing, versus addining a class ability like the Arcanist domain for the cleric when things are not settled.
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6 months ago ::
Jan 05, 2013 - 9:47AM
#14
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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I personally like the separation of arcane and divine magic. It's just personal preference, though.
Removing the separation, and making Healing one of the choosable arcane schools, simply removes the cleric's role as a viable class.
You still need the Warrior/Healer Gish... it just gives us the Robed Healer non gish (and allows the former to be less of a uber healer specialist).
The division isnt something with much support in the real world the most common ability attributed to witches... and in fact any spellcasting / miracle working type has been healing (only the extremist christians denied healing to anyone but there own god).
Cant any class be a priest as a background (priests of Odin being the nobleman fighter leader who do rituals and ceremonies, and inspiration Warlord style... instead of miracle working)
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6 months ago ::
Jan 05, 2013 - 1:17PM
#15
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I'd tackle it differently.
I'd remove the Paladin's casting ability and add in more of his flavour abilities.
Paladin spell progression always felt weak and needless to me, but his iconic abilities such as immunity to disease, to fear, smites and such, I find quite interesting.
I can't talk for the 4ed since I'm not familiar with its Paladin class.
But in 2ed and 3ed the Paladin always had his place in the Core as an iconic class. Marked by his unique abilities and flavour, far from seeming some generic battle-cleric.
Cleric is a caster who also is somewhat good at fighting.
Paladin is a full-scale combatant like the Fighter and Barbarian, but with his own flavour.
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6 months ago ::
Jan 05, 2013 - 3:06PM
#16
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Date Joined:
Feb 17, 2010
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I like the direction this idea is headed. This would essentially collapse the "battle-mage" archetype into cleric, and shifts the "healer cleric" archetype to the wizard/mage, which might require fewer mechanical shenanigans than the current model. I'm not really invested in the "white mage" thing, but giving the cleric more flexibility in spell selection/build would be brilliant.
Not sure about doing that through eliminating the arcane/divine distinction; that's more of a flavor thing as far as I'm concerned, so there doesn't need to be a hard mechanical distinction, but I think giving clerics full access to the wizards spell list (even with limitations) could prove problematic. You'd have to be careful in choosing what schools they could access. On the flavor-side, I'd want to see "schools" called something less wizardy that could apply to the expanded set of archetypes using them.
I definitely wouldn't eliminate the paladin though. It's quite distinct from a cleric, not just a "melee healer," but a "holy warrior." As Rastopolous put it, remove the paladin's spell slots and focus on other divine-oriented abilities -- leaving them with one healing ability, Lay on Hands, which should probably be optional, similar to 4e.
I want "punch magic in the face" to be a maneuver
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6 months ago ::
Jan 05, 2013 - 3:32PM
#17
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Date Joined:
Jan 20, 2002
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Or the cleric is the gish that heals and blesses, while other classes are gishes that do other things. Paladins are gishes that smite. Druids are gishes that control nature and the weather. Bards are gishes that ... you get the picture. The more classes that can fulfil the leader/healer role, the better.
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6 months ago ::
Jan 05, 2013 - 6:25PM
#18
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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I'd tackle it differently.
I'd remove the Paladin's casting ability and add in more of his flavour abilities.
Paladin spell progression always felt weak and needless to me, but his iconic abilities such as immunity to disease, to fear, smites and such, I find quite interesting.
I can't talk for the 4ed since I'm not familiar with its Paladin class.
Depends on the build... It has some nice defending my allies combat moves that partake of the original fighter with special abilities ... and after divine power its divine retaliation aspect could be de-emphasized an option that didnt present as "casty"
Paladin is a full-scale combatant like the Fighter and Barbarian, but with his own flavour.
I have some ideas that involve using the Attunement rules and Boons/Blessings so the Paladin can have fighting styles and the like which go beyond just having a divine connection, I too feel at its core he is a fighter.
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6 months ago ::
Jan 06, 2013 - 2:45AM
#19
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Date Joined:
May 23, 2012
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What if we eliminated the seperation of divine/arcane and simply made the mage class (credit to a fellow in the D&D+supernatural=obsolete thread). His idea had 8 schools and only allowing someone to cast from 6 of them. Healing, evocation, illusion, etc.
We now add in the cleric, who takes the paladin's role as a melee healer. Give the cleric access to. say, 2 or 3 of the schools (predetermined) and eliminate the pally. He's always seemed a little redundant anywho, but that's my opinion.
I'm not saying this is the right way to go, but thoughts?
How about this.
If the character is a mixed fighting and casting class, they get to use 2d6 for only 1 school and use a 1d8 for all other schools.
If the character is a dedicated casting class, they get to use a 3d4 for 3 schools and a 2d6 from any other schools.
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6 months ago ::
Jan 06, 2013 - 3:23AM
#20
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Date Joined:
Sep 30, 2006
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What if we eliminated the seperation of divine/arcane and simply made the mage class (credit to a fellow in the D&D+supernatural=obsolete thread). His idea had 8 schools and only allowing someone to cast from 6 of them. Healing, evocation, illusion, etc.
We now add in the cleric, who takes the paladin's role as a melee healer. Give the cleric access to. say, 2 or 3 of the schools (predetermined) and eliminate the pally. He's always seemed a little redundant anywho, but that's my opinion.
I'm not saying this is the right way to go, but thoughts?
How about this.
If the character is a mixed fighting and casting class, they get to use 2d6 for only 1 school and use a 1d8 for all other schools.
If the character is a dedicated casting class, they get to use a 3d4 for 3 schools and a 2d6 from any other schools.
3d4 and 2d6 are too similar.
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