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5 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 10:11AM
#1401
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2008
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Yes, chaosfang, they have put themselves into an oddly constrained place for some unfathomable reason. Perhaps I will be pleasantly surprised when they finish...
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5 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 10:58AM
#1402
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Date Joined:
Aug 18, 2006
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A bad class system is just as bad as a classless system.
With a bad classless system, you going to ban a lot of stuff because they are broken
and it's going to take more work to fix them.
But to introduce new players faster into the game, class system is the way to go.
A *simple* system might be the best way to go, but that doesn't mean classes. Or for that matter classless. But a RPG like Hero Wars/HeroQuest is great for introducing new players, without ever touching on classes.
These, in the day when heaven was falling,
The hour when earth's foundations fled,
Followed their mercenary calling,
And took their wages, and are dead.
Playing: Mongoose Traveller
GMing: Barbarians of Lemuria
Planning: Reclaiming Neverwinter, a 4e D&D campaign
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5 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 12:03PM
#1403
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So classes 1, classless 0.
Not really.
Are there benefits to classes? Certainly.
Are the benefits to classless? Certainly.
Are they mutualy exclusive rules concepts? Certainly not. They can and have coexisted in the past, and it's not a bad idea to explore having both methods of character generation available to those who want them.
The benefits of classes blows classless out of the water.
Why does this have to be antagonistic when you can have both classes with levels and straight classless coexisting in the same system? That way the game as a whole can have the benefits of both.
1. It's a lot faster to make your character from classes than classless.
No, that's not a guaranteed truth. I can pick up my BtVS rpg book, which uses classless creation, and create a character quicker than I can for either 3e or any Palladium game, both of which use classes.
2. When I am the DM, I don't want to make classes for my encounters. I want it already there.
That is a problem you run into in a classed system as well because there is no guarantee that the system has the class you need. And, as I said, I am talking about coexistence. You don't add in clasless creation instead of classes X, Y, and Z (forcing people to create them from scratch), you do it in addition to those classes.
3. The only classless game I seen with leveling is runescape./quote]
A lot of classless games don't go with levels. Instead they just use straight xp, or whatever they call xp, that is spent to get new or better abilities. However, that is not to say that it can't be done so simply a child could figure it out. Here:
Take the points for character creation that do not relate to buying attribute or skill points and build level one of a class out of them. Then, you build each additional level on a static number of xp/character points (10, 15, whatever). Upon reaching that many xp/character points from playing, you trade them all in for your next level in the class.
So far I haven't seen a classless tabletop game with leveling that is balance.
So far I haven't seen many tabletop games with balance in general.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
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5 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 5:13PM
#1404
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Date Joined:
May 14, 2010
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No, that's not a guaranteed truth. I can pick up my BtVS rpg book, which uses classless creation, and create a character quicker than I can for either 3e or any Palladium game, both of which use classes.
I am not talking about you, because we are all familiar with our books.
I am talking about somebody who is new and never played the game.
What am I saying is that the new guy can make a character faster and easier
if the class was made and ready to go.
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5 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 5:19PM
#1405
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Date Joined:
Apr 14, 2004
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No, that's not a guaranteed truth. I can pick up my BtVS rpg book, which uses classless creation, and create a character quicker than I can for either 3e or any Palladium game, both of which use classes.
I am not talking about you, because we are all familiar with our books.
I am talking about somebody who is new and never played the game.
What am I saying is that the new guy can make a character faster and easier
if the class was made and ready to go.
That's only if you hand the character the book and say 'here is your class'. Take Palladium. You have hundreds of classes spanning many dozens of books. Just skimming through them takes more time than a large number of classless games entire creation processes. You can'r just look at the fact it has classes or doesn't and say how quick a character can be made.
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5 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 5:20PM
#1406
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No, that's not a guaranteed truth. I can pick up my BtVS rpg book, which uses classless creation, and create a character quicker than I can for either 3e or any Palladium game, both of which use classes.
I am not talking about you, because we are all familiar with our books.
I am talking about somebody who is new and never played the game.
What am I saying is that the new guy can make a character faster and easier
if the class was made and ready to go.
That's also not a guaranteed truth. I have introduced players to both 3e and the BtVS rpgs. Building a 3e character took considerably longer than building a BtVS character. So much so that the group didn't have enough time left to play 3e when characters were made for new players in that session but we were able to play BtVS when characters were made for new players.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
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5 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 5:23PM
#1407
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No, that's not a guaranteed truth. I can pick up my BtVS rpg book, which uses classless creation, and create a character quicker than I can for either 3e or any Palladium game, both of which use classes.
I am not talking about you, because we are all familiar with our books.
I am talking about somebody who is new and never played the game.
What am I saying is that the new guy can make a character faster and easier
if the class was made and ready to go.
That's only if you hand the character the book and say 'here is your class'. Take Palladium. You have hundreds of classes spanning many dozens of books. Just skimming through them takes more time than a large number of classless games entire creation processes. You can'r just look at the fact it has classes or doesn't and say how quick a character can be made.
Very much so. I played palladium's Robotech, Heroes Unlimited, and Rifts games for years, and enjoyed them despite their problems. But character building was frequently even more time consuming than it was with 3e. Actually, thinking back on it, they might have been about the same if it weren't for Palladium having more attributes to roll for.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
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5 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 5:32PM
#1408
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Date Joined:
May 14, 2010
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No, that's not a guaranteed truth. I can pick up my BtVS rpg book, which uses classless creation, and create a character quicker than I can for either 3e or any Palladium game, both of which use classes.
I am not talking about you, because we are all familiar with our books.
I am talking about somebody who is new and never played the game.
What am I saying is that the new guy can make a character faster and easier
if the class was made and ready to go.
That's also not a guaranteed truth. I have introduced players to both 3e and the BtVS rpgs. Building a 3e character took considerably longer than building a BtVS character. So much so that the group didn't have enough time left to play 3e when characters were made for new players in that session but we were able to play BtVS when characters were made for new players.
boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/805/buffy-th...
Are you talking about this? Are you kidding me? Did you really compare a board game to
D&D?
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5 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 5:36PM
#1409
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In todays PC world, there can be no losers, only winners.
After having taught this to our children and ruining their ability to cope with failure, we now have to instill it in our games.
Everything is "balanced" so that everybody can do everything and nobody fails.
The "participation trophy" generations mindset strikes again.
Everyone is a winner, especially if you are a loser.
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5 months ago ::
Feb 02, 2013 - 5:41PM
#1410
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No, that's not a guaranteed truth. I can pick up my BtVS rpg book, which uses classless creation, and create a character quicker than I can for either 3e or any Palladium game, both of which use classes.
I am not talking about you, because we are all familiar with our books.
I am talking about somebody who is new and never played the game.
What am I saying is that the new guy can make a character faster and easier
if the class was made and ready to go.
That's also not a guaranteed truth. I have introduced players to both 3e and the BtVS rpgs. Building a 3e character took considerably longer than building a BtVS character. So much so that the group didn't have enough time left to play 3e when characters were made for new players in that session but we were able to play BtVS when characters were made for new players.
boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/805/buffy-th...
Are you talking about this? Are you kidding me? Did you really compare a board game to
D&D?
No he was talking about Eden Studios BtVS RPG.
Hm, that image didn't copy right, here's the link at drivethru.
rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/2667/Buff...
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