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5 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 7:08PM
#1371
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Date Joined:
May 14, 2010
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So classes 1, classless 0.
Not really.
Are there benefits to classes? Certainly.
Are the benefits to classless? Certainly.
Are they mutualy exclusive rules concepts? Certainly not. They can and have coexisted in the past, and it's not a bad idea to explore having both methods of character generation available to those who want them.
The benefits of classes blows classless out of the water.
1. It's a lot faster to make your character from classes than classless.
2. When I am the DM, I don't want to make classes for my encounters. I want it already there.
3. The only classless game I seen with leveling is runescape. So far I haven't seen a classless tabletop game with leveling that is balance.
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5 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 7:20PM
#1372
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Date Joined:
Oct 26, 2004
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the latest Mutants and masterminds is pretty solid
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5 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 7:21PM
#1373
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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So classes 1, classless 0.
Not really.
Are there benefits to classes? Certainly.
Are the benefits to classless? Certainly.
Are they mutualy exclusive rules concepts? Certainly not. They can and have coexisted in the past, and it's not a bad idea to explore having both methods of character generation available to those who want them.
The benefits of classes blows classless out of the water.
1. It's a lot faster to make your character from classes than classless.
Easy to include in effect premaid archetypes constructed with the core classless mechanics.
2. When I am the DM, I don't want to make classes for my encounters. I want it already there.
see 1.. also why do you want so complex of character design for the npcs.
3. The only classless game I seen with leveling is runescape. So far I haven't seen a classless tabletop game with leveling that is balance.
Classless games often dont have levels not sure why they arent mutually exclusive either.
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5 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 7:27PM
#1374
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Date Joined:
Oct 26, 2004
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Well most classless systems I've been exposed don't use levels because they just give you build points directly.
Tephra is the exception and I think it pulls off a classless level system nicely.
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5 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 7:34PM
#1375
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2008
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So classes 1, classless 0.
Not really.
Are there benefits to classes? Certainly.
Are the benefits to classless? Certainly.
Are they mutualy exclusive rules concepts? Certainly not. They can and have coexisted in the past, and it's not a bad idea to explore having both methods of character generation available to those who want them.
The benefits of classes blows classless out of the water.
1. It's a lot faster to make your character from classes than classless.
2. When I am the DM, I don't want to make classes for my encounters. I want it already there.
3. The only classless game I seen with leveling is runescape. So far I haven't seen a classless tabletop game with leveling that is balance.
There are NONE with classes that are balanced.
Classless is a fine option for those who like it.
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5 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 7:38PM
#1376
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Date Joined:
Jan 10, 2013
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Easy to include in effect premaid archetypes constructed with the core classless mechanics.
This, in a nutshell.
Think about Skyrim or Oblivion.
A) Keep the "core" classes (or whatever classes you wish) as part of the game. If people want a quick-start PC, they can pick a class and go for it.
B) Present a classless option that begins at the basic level of "do you want your PC to be melee-centric, caster-centric, or a mix of both"?
C) Depending on your base selection, options are offered such as Melee: Light Blades, Melee: Thrown Weapons, Melee: Crossbows, Heavy Armor, Light Armor, Silent Movement, Lock Picking, and so on, or Caster: Necromancy, Caster: Divine Boons, Caster: Healing Magic, and so on. This gives your base character the groundwork of his class.
D) Options and skill-trees branch off of each of the above selections to offer PCs as many options as premade PCs would, but with 100% control of how they get those options. Levelling would be based on what you picked in B.
The downside: It would require system mastery, no doubt. There would, of course, be trap options. Some things simply won't combine as well as others. It's part of the risk associated with classless RPGs. You could, theoretically, end up with a useless character. It would be possible to prevent a PC from becoming too powerful, but I feel it would be rather difficult to totally avoid the possibility of making a dud PC. The only real way to prevent it would be a certain amount of railroading by the rules (if you pick option A, you cannot pick option B, etc.).
"The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind."
- H.P. Lovecraft
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5 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 7:53PM
#1377
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Class-based is only faster than classless when A) The character creation system is complex B) The presentation of options is muddled For instance, I find 5E's character creation method rather difficult to work with because I have to open multiple PDFs, go back and forth between the list of maneuvers by class and list of maneuvers by description, since I can't tell at a glance which is a Fighter maneuver, a generic maneuver and a Monk maneuver. By comparison, Gamma World 7E is classless, yet easy to make characters due to ease of layout. This is in spite of the fact that both have players choosing race, class, powers (tricks, spells, maneuvers, etc.), equipment and backgrounds/skills. This part is odd though: "When I am the DM, I don't want to make classes for my encounters. I want it already there." Why is the DM making classes in the first place? If by classes you mean "pregens", then yes classes help since they're basically feature packages in classless systems and in class-based systems they're individual systems working within the same power grid so to speak. But aren't players supposed to be the one making characters, regardless of the presence or absence of classes? As for this: "The only classless game I seen with leveling is runescape. So far I haven't seen a classless tabletop game with leveling that is balance. ", that's probably because most game designers don't even have "balance" in mind, so the systems that eventually crop up have no inherent balance. There is one classless tabletop game with balance, although it doesn't have a level-based system and instead utilizes EXP as a feature-buying resource: Era (still a work in progress). And interestingly enough, even though 13th Age is a class-based system, because the design of the system and the suggestion of the devs themselves (through the book) that swapping class features and powers is fine as long as the DM's cool with it, treating 13th Age as a classless system doesn't take much of a stretch in imagination.
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5 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 8:09PM
#1378
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Date Joined:
May 14, 2010
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@Grathnos
1. So basically you telling me I should make the classes? Yes, give the DM more work.
Make warrior class for my warriors, bandit class for my bandits, etc.
2. Adding hitpoints, attack, and defence is not complex. Balancing it out so I won't kill my players, making it too easy or boring, that is complex.
3. You need leveling in D&D. You not going to get a set of points build and expect to kill everything
from goblins to dragons. With classless and leveling, I can already see the unbalance.
A few weeks ago, somebody was trying to introduce me to a classless tabletop game based on a show called Firefly (some type of space/westen show). He said his party needed a bodyguard so I made a masked soldier who specialize in fighting. He was upset how I min-max this guy.
I liked my guy, a masked unknown soldier who was hired to protect this crew.
Right now, I don't see how a classless system can fit into D&D.
The classless system would be ruining the point of what the designers are
trying to do which is to make it simple and easy to pick up.
Not a lot of people are experience like us and can make a character under 5 minute.
The goal right now is to make it easy enough to introduce new people.
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5 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 8:14PM
#1379
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2008
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@Grathnos
1. So basically you telling me I should make the classes? Yes, give the DM more work.
Make warrior class for my warriors, bandit class for my bandits, etc.
2. Adding hitpoints, attack, and defence is not complex. Balancing it out so I won't kill my players, making it too easy or boring, that is complex.
3. You need leveling in D&D. You not going to get a set of points build and expect to kill everything
from goblins to dragons. With classless and leveling, I can already see the unbalance.
A few weeks ago, somebody was trying to introduce me to a classless tabletop game based on a show called Firefly (some type of space/westen show). He said his party needed a bodyguard so I made a masked soldier who specialize in fighting. He was upset how I min-max this guy.
I liked my guy, a masked unknown soldier who was hired to protect this crew.
Right now, I don't see how a classless system can fit into D&D.
The classless system would be ruining the point of what the designers are
trying to do which is to make it simple and easy to pick up.
Not a lot of people are experience like us and can make a character under 5 minute.
The goal right now is to make it easy enough to introduce new people.
You don't have to make the classes. All the regular classes can easily be included in a classless system as prebuilt options.
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5 months ago ::
Feb 01, 2013 - 8:24PM
#1380
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1. So basically you telling me I should make the classes? Yes, give the DM more work.
Make warrior class for my warriors, bandit class for my bandits, etc.
Classless systems often provide basic templates with pre-selected stuff, as well as suggested things to take. Besides, D&D 4E already gives me the answer to that question: instead of finding classes or templates or builds, just take the most iconic part of that class, stuff it into the universal template, done! EDIT: See Character Companions
@Grathnos 2. Adding hitpoints, attack, and defence is not complex. Balancing it out so I won't kill my players, making it too easy or boring, that is complex.
What's so complex about giving every PC the same baseline HP, attack and defense, with their ability scores doing all the adjusting for you?
@Grathnos 3. You need leveling in D&D. You not going to get a set of points build and expect to kill everything from goblins to dragons. With classless and leveling, I can already see the unbalance.
Gamma World 7E is classless and even lacks point buy, but as far as I can tell it's far less unbalanced compared to 3E, in spite of 3E being a class-based system.
The classless system would be ruining the point of what the designers are trying to do which is to make it simple and easy to pick up.
Keeping things simple and easy to pick up is a system design issue; the existence or lack of classes affects it, but isn't the sole basis of it. See: 3E.
Not a lot of people are experience like us and can make a character under 5 minute.
The goal right now is to make it easy enough to introduce new people.
I think the best way to introduce new people to the game is to fire up their imagination and make them want to game. Now I'm not talking about JUST the fluff, I mean having them excited to play THEIR character concept from levels 1 to whatever.
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