A fighter, highest accuracy with weapons, at even level has a 65% chance to hit? Sounds about right to me. Remember damage is how the game scales, not accuracy. I see no reason that a fighter should be useful less than 65% of the time :P
Now if a wizard, no accuracy bonus, had a 65% chance to hit, then maybe we would have a problem.
A fighter, highest accuracy with weapons, at even level has a 65% chance to hit? Sounds about right to me. Remember damage is how the game scales, not accuracy. I see no reason that a fighter should be useful less than 65% of the time :P
Now if a wizard, no accuracy bonus, had a 65% chance to hit, then maybe we would have a problem.
Even if the AC is not modified (though I do think it should be raised by 2 or even 3), the health and damage is still low. Even if it's just theoretical number crunching, an average round of combat should not be enough to outright kill a dragon. Even if a dragon only has an AC of about 16 they should still have the hitpoints and damage that would present a challenge. A dragon attack should not be seen as a minor inconvenience to an average party. When you see a dragon coming toward it should be "oh god. Oh god run. Oh ****. Oh ****. Run. Just run." unless you are well prepared. The dragons' low damage and low health compared with the insane standard damage of medium leveled PCs is VERY unbalanced.
@Jenks: If the classes had different accuracy bonuses with their primary attack forms, I'd agree. Problem is, they don't. The Fighter's, Rogue's, and Monk's weapon attack bonus is identical, and the same as the Cleric's and Wizard's spellcasting bonus. So assuming each class has the same score in their primary offensive ability, all classes have the same chance to hit.
I agree, weapon-wise the Fighter should be more accurate than the Rogue (let's assume the Monk is just as adept as the Fighter). Spell-wise, a Wizard or Cleric should be (ignoring Deity/Tradition benefits) less accurate overall than the fighter. I can agree that specific deity and tradition choices could boost them to an equal level of accuracy. Perhaps in a future playtest things will change...
On the subject at hand, most dragons appearing in literature and mythology are fought alone. Each one's legend portrays it as a more or less unique creature of extraordinary power. Now I agree, DDN is in no way obliged to follow stories and myths accurately, but it should bear some similarity. Why should the DM have to go out of his way to enrich every dragon encounter with minions, traps, and other nasty surprises, just to be interesting?
I got a test system for dragons that I wanna try in our group's next session (which, unfortunately, is in 10 days). If it looks good, I'll upload it here for all to see/review/cry against
We ran an encounter with the Black Dragon last night - against a party of five level six characters. And they shredded it. It was roughly an average difficulty encounter for them - I think I almost got one character to 0 hp - no one else was even close.
Even my players thought its AC was too low and it had too few hit points.
At a minimum it needs two fixes.
The AC is too low. It dropped from AC 18 in the last packet to 15 in this packet. This needs to go back up. Alternately it needs a (roughly) 30% increase in hit points. As a start.
The breath weapon sucks. 4d6+5 damage, half on a save. For a dragon? For a LEVEL 13 dragon? For a creature designed to fight characters with fourth and fifth level spells, and 50+ hit points in many cases - and it's breath weapon does less than 20 average damage on a failed save? The breath weapon needs to do enough damage to threaten a level-appropriate character on a failed save. That means at least 30-40 damage as an average. Or else it needs ongoing damage and blindness. Something to make it a threat. Players should be afraid of the breath and looking for ways to avoid it (spreading out, resistances, etc.) - not laughing at its trivial damage (the fact that a line is the weakest of shapes is a minor issue).
Granted it's just one more step in the gradual weakening of Dragons that has happened in every edition since the AD&D. Dragons are going from the apex predator that players aspire towards fighting to 'just another monster' for the players to roll over. And not a particularly tough one at that. And I think that cheapens them - they should be special because the game is Dungeons and Dragons.
2nd edition : HD 18 (18D8 Good), AC -4 (tough but not impossible), breath weapon 16D8+8 lightning = great for taking out a town, which it should be able too, but pretty darn nasty vs a party.
3.5 : AC 28 (tough but not impossible), Breath weapon 12D8 lightning = great for taking out a town, which it should be able too, but pretty darn nasty vs a party.
DDN : HP 161 (good), AC 16 (moderate, possible for all classes) Breath weapon 100ft line (3d10+5 damage-lightning) = respectable, can still take out a town of decent chunks of one.
- I think outright Damage resistance is not required, resistance to slashing could be good for older dragons, say the top third of the age catagories. - they already have Advantage against magical spells and affects-this will cut back alot of spells, this already makes them tough. - Dragons using spells seems like a no brainer to me, anything that lives that long has got to take up magic of some kind. - for breath perhaps they can change the stream to a cone or cloud etc?
Remember dragons are long lived, intelligent foes. So like Vampires, Liches, Mind Flayers etc, they will have minions, lairs, traps, plans, backup lairs and backup plans. All designed to keep them alive and help them forward their goals.
Sure some are greedy or egotistically so you can kite them into attacking you, but once they start to feel the pain they can flee and return.
OK, finally found the time to sit down and copy the combat transcript.
Setup: 6 × Lvl5 PCs vs White dragon in lair. PCs are: a High Elf Wizard [Battle Mage] (Wiz1), a human Wizard [Illusionist] (Wiz2), a halfling Monk (Mnk), A human Cleric [the Warbringer] (Clr), a Wood Elf Fighter [Archer setup] (Archer), and a Mountain Dwarf Fighter [Protector setup] (Dwarf).
The dragon's lair is a 23 × 16 squares cave (an A2-sized battle mat), 30 feet high, with a single opening. I'm not interested in whether the dragon could escape or not, just to see how the fight worked out. Of course, if it were an actual part of a plot, the dragon would have an escape route.
Magic Items in the party: 2 × warhammer +1 (Clr, Dwrf), a wand of enemy detection (Wiz1). Some potions of healing, which were never used anyway.
I assumed the dragon was aware of the PCs approaching, and allowed 2 rounds of preparation for each side.
Preparation: Clr casts prayer, Wiz1 casts haste on Archer. Dragon casts freezing fog in the middle of its lair, moves to the back, and waits (nothing else to use).
Party enters lair, both sides roll initiative. Wiz1 used a charge from his wand of enemy detection. Archer and Mnk had Improved Initiative. Final Initiative rolls are as follows:
Not much to say here. Obviously a bad start (natural 1...), but even if it had rolled a natural 20, the only one it would have played before would be the Dwarf, as the Clr had a Dex of 14.
Round 1: Wiz1: Fails save against frightful presence, chooses to cast maximized fireball instead of using action to reroll save. [The player was actually hoping the dragon had vulnerability to fire.] Dragon saves, takes 18 damage. Wiz1 moves away from dragon and out of the battle mat. Mnk: Fails save against frightful presence, uses action to reroll save, succeeds, and moves closer. Does not get in area of freezing fog. Wiz2: Succeeds on save against frightful presence, casts inivisibility on herself, moves away from rest of group. Clr: Succeeds on save against frightful presence, casts protection from evil on himself, moves away from rest of group. Archer: Succeeds on save against frightful presence, makes two attacks with longbow, both with advantage due to his First Strike feat. first attack succeeds (19 damage), second misses. Dwarf: Succeeds on save against frightful presence, approaches dragon, gets in area of freezing fog, not enough movement to get within melee range of dragon. Dragon: Moves within freezing fog area, (best position for breath), breathes, catches Clr, Dwarf, and Archer, rolls 16 damage on breath. Only Archer succeeds on Dex save.
Comments: Clearly, the party failed to understand they had two rounds to prepare, and spent actions casting more buffs. Otherwise, damage to the dragon would probably have been higher. Frightful presence also helped, because the Mnk essentially lost the first round. Even so, the dragon is already at -37, (slightly) more than one-third of total hit points.
Round 2: Wiz1: Uses action to reroll save against frightful presence, fails. Mnk: Uses Step of the Wind and action to move far enough to get into melee with dragon. Activates Iron Root Defense (rolls -5 damage against all melee attacks). Wiz2: Uses crow familiar to deliver shocking grasp, misses. Crow stays adjacent to dragon to avoid Attack of Opportunity. Clr: Approaches the dragon, stops at the edge of freezing fog, attacks with lance of faith, hits for 7 damage. Archer: Same as in round 1, makes two attacks, no advantage this time, but both hit for 28 and 10 damage (used martial dice on the first attack). Dwarf: Moves to within melee range, attacks dragon, hits (precicely AC 15) for 14 damage, saves one MDD for parry. Dragon: Fails to recharge breath (rolled a 3). Uses multiattack to make bite and tail attacks. Bites Mnk, hits for 26 damage. Mnk uses his Deflect feat to halve the damage to 13, reduced to a final 8 by Iron Root Defense. Tail slaps dwarf, hits for 7 damage, but Dwarf uses his reaction to parry with 1d6 + skill die for a total of (5+6) 11 damage, thus negates attack.
Comments: Wiz1 still out of the fight, Mnk still has not attacked, Wiz2 missed, and despite all that, the dragon sustained a further 59 damage, and is at -98. The dragon used its tail against the Dwarf, intent on pushing it 20 feet away, which would mean that the Dwarf (moving at 20 feet in armor, 10 effectively in freezing fog) would be unable to attack again next round (would either have to use action and move to get back into melee, or stop out of melee range). Since the parry turned the hit into a miss, the push never happened. Still, the dragon hit on all attacks.
Round 3: Wiz1: Finally makes the save against Frightful Presence, begins to return, but is too far away yet. Mnk: Attacks the dragon, hits for 10 damage, uses Grasp of Stone, dragon fails its saving throw (...). Mnk follows with Flurry of Blows, which auto-hits and deals 7 more, then spends two MDD on Iron Root Defense (-8 all damage).
At this point, the dragon dies (-115 hit points, down to zero hit points).
Comments Overall Overall party resources expended: One fireball and haste (both 3rd-level slots of Wiz1), one prayer (single 3rd-level slot of Clr), one protection from evil (one 1st-level Clr slot), one invisibility (one 2nd-level Wiz2 slot). Wiz2 was low on hit points, would probably have dropped if hit by another breath attack, but he didn't contribute to damage anyway. Even though a combination of failed Frightful Presence saves and attack rolls, as well as choice of wrong actions meant the party dealt below average damage, the dragon still died in three rounds.
The Monk as a class is horribly overpowered and requires a good swing with the nerfbat. Deflect combined with Iron Root Defense is plainly absurd for a guy wearing no armor and carrying no weapons. Basically, Iron Root Defense is absurd on its own - a flat damage resuction against all attacks and effects with no reaction required, when the fighter's parry (a class ability of a class supposedly better than the Monk in armed combat) requires a reaction, hence defends only against a single attack. Someone over at the dev lair needs to get serious and limit Iron Root Defense to a single MDD.
The dragon has unacceptably few options and defenses. Its AC proved barely adequate for lvl5 PCs, obviously is inadequate for lvl8 ones. AC 16 or 17 is more appropriate. An AC of 16 would have made the Dwarf's 14-point hit into a miss. I don't know how much difference that would have made, since in round 3 there were 4 more PCs left to act before the dragon (Wiz2, Clr, Archer, Dwarf), but one can only hope... Breath weapon damage is way too low. I don't think a faster recharge would help, but it really needs to be higher. Maybe a 50% increase would help some (say, 6d6+6), and likewise for the other dragons. DC seems fine.
Obviously, this is just a single test, and against a party 50% more powerful than normal (6 PCs), so statistically it does not carry much significance. However, assuming that the dragon could statistically defeat the group, what are the chances of getting a completely different result on a single test?
2nd edition : HD 18 (18D8 Good), AC -4 (tough but not impossible), breath weapon 16D8+8 lightning = great for taking out a town, which it should be able too, but pretty darn nasty vs a party.
3.5 : AC 28 (tough but not impossible), Breath weapon 12D8 lightning = great for taking out a town, which it should be able too, but pretty darn nasty vs a party.
DDN : HP 161 (good), AC 16 (moderate, possible for all classes) Breath weapon 100ft line (3d10+5 damage-lightning) = respectable, can still take out a town of decent chunks of one.
- I think outright Damage resistance is not required, resistance to slashing could be good for older dragons, say the top third of the age catagories. - they already have Advantage against magical spells and affects-this will cut back alot of spells, this already makes them tough. - Dragons using spells seems like a no brainer to me, anything that lives that long has got to take up magic of some kind. - for breath perhaps they can change the stream to a cone or cloud etc?
Remember dragons are long lived, intelligent foes. So like Vampires, Liches, Mind Flayers etc, they will have minions, lairs, traps, plans, backup lairs and backup plans. All designed to keep them alive and help them forward their goals.
Sure some are greedy or egotistically so you can kite them into attacking you, but once they start to feel the pain they can flee and return.
Except that dragons have varying personalities. A green dragon is a scheming dragon who will have a wide connection of underlings if strong enough and prefers not to engage in direct combat. But most other dragons will very rarely have underlings. White dragons would never have any because of how primal their actions are. Red dragons usually care very little and they'd prefer to be the ones who go and fight in the first place to show their strength. Blue dragons are probably the most annoying to deal with because they might consider combat with you to last a year or more.
I think Spoony described dragon combat the best; No decent, intelligent dragon would EVER fight in melee if they saw a fighter with a huge sword, maul-wielding clerics and a stabby rogue. Dragons have wings for a reason, and a 100ft distance breath weapon for an even better reason; for aerial ranged combat.
To relay what he has said, and for what I have been doing for years, is this; First round you (The dragon) would make their way out of its own lair despite possibly provoking oppurtunity attacks; why would a dragon fight in its own lair where it could potentially damage or destroy its own hoard? Also, a little bit of damage doesn't go too far especially when making this setup.
No providing the lair is small enough the dragon should be able to get out and take flight this round, if not then on the next round. Now what does the dragon do now? Simple; it flies a distance equal to its breath weapon's reach (Black Dragon's BW is 80ft). Unfortunately it's a line attack but some dragons have a cone at a shorter distance however. Take into consideration the distance; all Melee characters are now useless, the wizard and spellcasters are useless if they do not have any spells that can reach the dragon, and a ranger will only be able to hit from range should they be able to hit with the penalty to their range rolls for "long distance" shots. If you have no ranger, the entire party is screwed. So the dragon now spams its breath weapon over and over, waiting to recharge if needed. A dragon will happily wait its time because, for a dragon, time can take however it wants considering how long they can live for.
So for the record; dragons don't fight fair. They don't need to, or even have to. Dragons are also relentless based on their own personalities; red dragons are the most horrifying creatures you will find; if you do something to tick him off, he'll find you. You've hid in a forest? No problem, it'll burn it down. Gonna go hide in a village? No problem, he'll burn that down, too. There have been many-a-time I have caused a TPK to groups because they thought that they could take on a dragon because they picked up a new +3 Greatsword or similar.
Point is, don't judge creatures based on their AC, HP and Damage; think about how they play, how they would react, what sort of tactics they would use. I nearly scored a TPK with goblins against a 5 man Level 3 party because the Goblins used a combination of oil and wall torches to do mass AoE fire damage on reflex saves. Remember, play by the mind and not by the numbers.
Dragons normally don't use Breath Weapon unless hard pressed as they prefer their meats fresh! Also an Ancient Red Dragon's Breath Weapon should melt stone or destroy some magic items or artifacts. Just seems right at our game table, no one wants to stand in that. Dragons also don't want to mess up their horde or miss out on any great treasures foolish adventurers bring to them and where do all the bones and legends come from if they do not truly challenge and threaten a party of adventurers with TPK. Even a Dragon Hunter knows to tread carefully for they lose members all the time. Just my two bits about Dragons and 34 years of the game and novels. Dragons should threathen Players with Death and Match Player Characters when dealing it. They should be a problem through to Epic Campaigns where there could be many dragons to deal with. They are important and should not seem like a cake walk all of the time.
Dragons being easy kills reminds me of this guy who wrote to Gary Gygax, back in the 80s, asking for new gods as he had (allegedly killed the whole pantheon). In fact it was due to a DM who played gods just like regular characters. For them players it was like fighting tough orcs, nothing more.
