If you're not interested in details, don't read them.
I am interested in the details - once.
It lists the monster's Ability scores, so you can see how much those would be adding, and in the case of equipment using monsters it lists their armor worn and their weapons used.
All the stuff you want is already there in plain view in the monster stats - what you are asking for is it all being written a second time in the breakdown of each little piece of the monster, and that's a waste of space that, over the course of a book of monsters, adds up to taking away a number of monsters greater than 0 or increasing the page count by a number of pages greater than 0.
It's not about me being bored to read a few more numbers - its about monsters being harder to use quickly because their stat block is a wall of useless text instead of a streamlined set of numbers that only show things once.
Careful, man. That much logic might be illegal on the internet. - Salla
Watched the Hobbit last week. Smaug wiped out a human town and the dwarven city. An army of elves fled rather than fight him. He seemed pretty invincible until Bilbo found his single weak spot and a special arrow downed him.
How many commoners would it take to kill a red dragon? Red Dragon 60' cone. AC15 HP 172
Assuming its breath 60' cone of fire can kill commoners with a single shot and it can avoid the rocks between recharging breaths by flying out of range. Commoners have +3 to attack and do 2 dmg per hit with a range of 80' with disadvantage 1 commoner would average 0.4 hp damage per thrown rock. It would therefore take 430 stones to kill a red dragon. 430 commoners needed to kill a red dragon if it can kill every commoners after they threw a rock.
Human Warrior (heavy crossbows) attack +4, dmg 1d8+2 1 warrior would average 3 hp damage per quarrel. 58 warriors need to kill a red dragon.
1st level human fighters (longbow), dex 18, attack +5, longbow 1d8+4+1d6 martial damage 6.5 hp damage per arrow fired. 26 1st level fighters could kill a red dragon.
Dragons need damage reduction. They also need a higher armor class. Dragon scales should at least be equivalent to plate armor.
Fear might change this slightly but fear is a DC14 save and a creature becomes immune after 1 save is made. If a dragon flies to meet them and attacks a village in broad daylight most peasants would have developed 24 hour immunity before the dragon arrived unless it tried to sneak up on them.
In a mock battle, a single 12th level optimized monk made short work of a red dragon by stunning it.
I have a humble opinion to interject into this if I may.
I tend to view dragons as intelligent creatures that would only attack if they had the upper hand in a fight. Like, I think a dragon would prefer to fight the adventurers in its lair rather than the open plains. I tend to think if a dragon is flying around, Skyrim-style, attack random passersby, then it kinda deserves a good waffle-stomping.
One of the more memorable dragon fights I had was in 3.0e against a white dragon. Our group entered its lair and saw the treasure on the opposite side of a huge room with thick ice covering the floor. The white dragon we were hunting wasn't in sight. Those of us who couldn't fly (*grumble*) began balancing our way across (hilariously watching the paladin play slip and slide). About half way across, the ice breaks and we all fall in the water. The dragon was in the water waiting for us. It had a couple ioun stones and spells up allowing it to proceed beating us mercilessly. We all managed to swim to the land the treasure was sitting on and proceeded to recover and defeat the dragon. I died, but not before putting a good full attack, two-weapon fighting, sneak attack, hurting on it (I was later resurrected).
But that, to me, is what a dragon fight should be. Not just trading blows, but the players overcoming the traps, minions, unique terrain that gives the dragon an advantage, and unique abilities that a dragon may have. In fact, most DMs I've played with have had to beef up dragons from the Bestiaries of previous editions just to deal with the group.
All of that said, it does sound like the longevity of these dragons should be revisited in an effort to make the dragons a bit more...robust. I like the suggestion of damage reduction. Higher AC might be too much of a bummer, though. I would rather do reduced damage than miss completely.
Personally, I would even like to see age categories for the dragons make a comeback. That white dragon strikes me as being more of a juvenile =).
Watched the Hobbit last week. Smaug wiped out a human town and the dwarven city. An army of elves fled rather than fight him. He seemed pretty invincible until Bilbo found his single weak spot and a special arrow downed him.
Haven't had time to go to the movies yet. I hope it was enjoyable?
Dragons need damage reduction. They also need a higher armor class. Dragon scales should at least be equivalent to plate armor.
I thought about DR as a (partial) solution, but iirc the devs have mentioned that they do not want to introduce this mechanic to DDN. Resistance might be an option, though. Definitely in favor of an increased AC.
Fear might change this slightly but fear is a DC14 save and a creature becomes immune after 1 save is made. If a dragon flies to meet them and attacks a village in broad daylight most peasants would have developed 24 hour immunity before the dragon arrived unless it tried to sneak up on them.
I think such a (hilarious) picture would qualify as a scene for a Gamers 3 movie
In a mock battle, a single 12th level optimized monk made short work of a red dragon by stunning it.
Well, we could cry all over the forums for devs to nerf monks. (That might actually be a good idea...) However, iirc, 3.5E dragons were immune to stunning. Even in 2E, where dragons were by comparison much flimsier (fewer hit points due to no Constitution bonus, no form of resistance or DR), they had an amazing AC, spellcasting capability, a breath weapon that in some varieties could potentially kill the dragon itself (!), a flat damage bonus due to age category, and magic resistance that could pontentially render them immune to spells. Oh, and old or older dragons were immune to normal missiles, and they got more than one signature spell-like ability as they aged. All of the above are missing from a DDN dragon. Except perhaps the hit points. I'm not saying a dragon needs to deal more melee damage (though I'd prefer a more dangerous breath), or have overall higher stats. A dragon needs options that can potentially increase, above all, its staying power.
How about at the very least, some spellcasting capability? It could use the Wizard spells per day and magic bonus, but be based off Charisma. Also, whereas the Wizard prepares 1+level spells per day, the dragon knows 1+effective Wizard level total spells, plus Int modifier cantrips. Effective Wizard level could be equal to the dragon's HD - 10. (If it's too low, we can calculate another value instead of -10).
Landale3, +1 from me to the return of age categories.
(I'm guessing no change will be implemented after all, and dragons with class levels in Wizard and/or fighter will end up a de facto necessity...)
Agreed that Smaug is what a high-level dragon should be - invulnerable as to defeat a dwarven kingdom and drive off an elven army alone. In the spirit of inclusiveness, there should be a place in the game for lower-level dragons without a huge suite of abilities, killable by mid-level characters without a significantly higher risk of death than, say, several giants or a tribe of ogres, because that's what some DMs look for. This is where age categories come in. But yes, on the higher-difficulty dragons, a higher AC and DR are a must. Maybe some low-level spellcasting too.
1) Played intelligently, one of the existing dragons could easily destroy a human village filled with commoners.
2) Smaug may have been higher level than the existing dragons.
3) Lets keep in mind, Smaug was killed by one shot from an arrow.
4) When you want to run a quest where a creature cannot be beaten until the adventurers take the time to discover some fact/weakness about the creature, the best bet is to code the creature by giving it invulnerability to all damage unless X, where X is the thing you want the group to do before they can beat the creature. Any of the existing dragons could be given that trait. Any of the existing dragons would play like Smaug if they were given that trait. That does not mean, however, that all dragons should play that way...
4) When you want to run a quest where a creature cannot be beaten until the adventurers take the time to discover some fact/weakness about the creature, the best bet is to code the creature by giving it invulnerability to all damage unless X, where X is the thing you want the group to do before they can beat the creature. Any of the existing dragons could be given that trait. Any of the existing dragons would play like Smaug if they were given that trait. That does not mean, however, that all dragons should play that way...
Exactly this. Smaug had special DM fiat plot armor. You don't just give that to things in the bestiary for general use. Can you imagine if the red dragon entry said "immune to weapon damage unless the character has talked to a thrush recently"?
Breath weapons are next to useless. They recharge on average as fast as they did in 3.5E, will be used against PCs having on average about as many hit points as they had in 3.5E, yet the breath weapons deal about one-third of the damage they dealt in 3.5E. Dragons are famous for their intelligence and cunning. Why would a dragon ever use its (sub-optimal) breath weapon in combat? Cone-shaped breath weapons would be useful against a tight group, but line-shaped ones are now much harder to employ effectively and justify spending the dragon's action on that.
Wait, you expect an intelligent dragon to be on the ground, doing 2 claws and a bite using multi-attack, when it has the option to move out of range, swoop in with a breath weapon, and then leave range until it can use it again? We're talking about a weapon that it can use every few rounds to do a great deal of harm to a party, with no other help.
You're right, played as a melee combatant, the dragons are boned. So doesn't that just mean we should stop expecting them to be primary melee?
You're right, played as a melee combatant, the dragons are boned. So doesn't that just mean we should stop expecting them to be primary melee?
Agreed. What are my non-melee options as a dragon? A breath weapon usable at best once every 3 rounds... Acceptable. Dull, but acceptable. During those three rounds that I attempt to minimize my exposure to enemy fire (read: cleric's lance of faith, wizard's ray of frost [lucky white dragon here], fighter's bow, axe, etc.), what else do my enemies do? My guess is they heal the damage sustained by my breath. I, on the other hand, seem to have no ability to heal any wounds I've sustained. I also have a spell-like ability of dubious usefulness (some are amazing, others not so). Still better than nothing.
Scenarios like the above can quickly degenerate to a fight of attrition. The dragon swoops in, breathes, flies away, more than likely sustains some damage in the process, then waits for its breath weapon to recharge before coming in again. The party has some healing capability, the dragon does not. A party without a cleric might find such a fight hard, a party equipped with a mobile hospital will not. Right, let's open the can of tactical geniusness (serious pun intended). The principles of war and rules of offence (which are basically nothing more than common sense rephrased) dictate that I (the dragon) should swoop in, breathe, then either land or come around and attempt to snatch the healer, carry him away from the rest of the party, and finish him off, all the while looking for the best opportunity to use my spell-like ability. As soon as my breath weapon recharges (or when the cleric dies), I come around, breathe again, then go for the weakest enemy (most likely the wizard). It's downhill towards the TPK after this point. A couple of issues: a) How guaranteed is it that I'll be able to tell the healer, or just the best target choice? (white dragon: Int 07... not very likely). If I snatch the wrong party member, he's still most likely dead, but the rest of the party will be healed when I come around to breathe again, while I will sustain additional damage, with no (by the book) ability to heal. b) Why should my enemies stick around and just watch me pull this maneuver off? This is supposed to be a crucial fight, we can safely assume the PCs will pull all the stoppers. Not to mention that a fight in the dragon's lair pretty much invalidates the flyby attack maneuver. If I want to win, I should prepare special traps in the combat zone, like landslides, camouflaged pit traps filled with punji sticks, mimics in rock form, etc. Perhaps I should also use a couple magic items from my hoard...
Personally I can go to all that trouble as a DM, and even beyond. I've DM'ed lvl45 Epic adventures in 3.5E (with a plot, multiverse-spanning threat, a damsel in need of rescue, etc. etc.), having a dragon act like an S.A.S. commando in a jungle operation is easy. I just think not everyone is going to, and a couple more abilities in the default dragon entry could help a lot.
So far, everyone seems to agree that a few more points in AC are a step in the right direction. Someone (and me) also mentioned low-level spellcasting. I propose that a dragon's spellcasting ability be Charisma. Age categories are useful (essentially for having a dragon be a viable encounter over a range of PC levels), but their implementation takes up a lot of space in a book, and frankly, I can agree for them to be the last thing that needs to be playtested before DDN goes live.
With the exception of the red dragons of old, any other dragons (white, black, green, etc.) I've fought have almost needed spells to be a serious threat (i.e. to give a real sense that one or more PCs will likely die in this if not played correctly). They would typically buff themselves with barkskin, stoneskin, or even haste (...or all three *shudder*). Some would even setup a couple alarm spells, glyphs, and other nasty things around for the PCs to contend with during the fight. I even encountered one that summoned an extra planar ally to help.
I think giving the dragons spellcasting would be a great thing, and it stays in line with what dragons of previous editions were able to do. The tactical possibilities of adding spells as a default feature would provide the DMs a tool for making the fights more challenging.
Sometimes it can have hilarious results though. One time, we set off an alarm outside a room and stood around debating of whether we should go in now that it knew we were coming. The creature had buffed itself upon hearing the alarm to prepare for the attack, and by the time we finally decided to go in, most of the buffs had worn off =).
