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6 months ago ::
Dec 09, 2012 - 4:43AM
#51
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What the OP is trying to say is there is too much focus on math and not enough on flavor with what we've seen of 5e and conversations on in the forums.
It's like Excel is now the character sheet for a game called Arithmatics and Accountants.
It doesn't sound like heroic fantasy. It just sounds boring.
Wait, wasn't that exactly how D&D has been played for more than 38 years? I mean, with all the tables and references and bonuses per level and what not?
If the game wasn't supposed to have focus on math, maybe D&D should've gone the way of FATE instead?
I think the main appeal of D&D has always been a distinctly crunchy representation of the fluff, regardless if it's the DM delivering that crunchiness via houseruling, or if it's the DM delivering that fluffiness via reflavoring. Personally I'm the type of DM who, while is able to houserules and homebrew stuff just fine, would rather work with a system that's fundamentally sound and easy to grasp, than a system that requires a lot of work on my part as DM.
[ This is exactly why I prefer 13th Age even over 4E, because even though 4E provides a plethora of options compared to 13th Age, and even though there's far greater "balance" in 4E combat than 13th Age, 13th Age offers me a variety of tools that, when used together with the rest of the system, allows me to construct entire campaigns without need to prepare beyond the basic stuff[1], as opposed to 4E still needing me to construct and plan ahead[2]. And with reflavoring as a very core concept in 13th Age, I could easily have five characters who each has different stories and fighting styles[3]; 4E could do it certainly, but you can only do so much without a major overhauling in some parts[4].
And while I know that I can make a 0E-3.x D&D or even a PF game work, comparing the work needed to keep casters nailed down in 4E, and comparing stuff like Grappling rules, I'd leave the DMing of said systems to other DMs. Not for me. ]
Actually, I'd say that mathematicians aren't the only ones needed if D&D Next is to be more attractive to me and the rest of my group, but they are certainly going to be needed in order to ensure that Bounded Accuracy not only works, but also works in such a way that even though the character progression math is flatter, it still allows players to feel actual progress[5].
[1] -- past notes, monster building rules, GM cheat sheet, relationship dice guidelines, PC sheets, dice, players
[2] -- improv could be done sure, but I still needed a relatively sturdy story framework that allowed such improvising; I couldn't find myself completely improvising in FR, although Eberron and (with some research) Dark Sun does hold greater promise
[3] -- to the point where one is a "wizard", another is a "rogue", another is a "brawler", another is a "diplomat", and the fifth is a "bard"), yet are in fact the same class [Fighter]
[4] -- because each character from the same (sub)class has roughly the same class features and there's only so much you can do equipment-wise and power-wise before having to mechanically tweak stuff... as opposed to 13th Age's pick-your-own-class-features and fluff-as-you-need methodologies
[5] -- psychologists are a must-have as well, since they're the ones who would understand the human psyche better and would likely give a better understanding of what would make the game exciting and interesting in spite of the Bounded Accuracy system
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6 months ago ::
Dec 09, 2012 - 7:21AM
#52
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Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2005
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I do hope that WotC at least learned enough from Paizo that adventures modules can sell. I'd love to see some solid fluff-heavy adventure arcs that span multiple levels.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 09, 2012 - 8:15AM
#53
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
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because people realized that anyone can do fluff, but doing crunch was what took work and forthought. and anyone who has a custom home campain has no use whatsoever for alot of that fluff.
And of course "people" are wrong. Not everyone can do fluff, so for those who cannot do fluff or simply don't have the time to do fluff, fluff needs to be done for them by the game company.
there are a great many people who buy games for and only for the crunch, they can transplant fluff from anywhere.
Then they can ignore the fluff and make their own.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 09, 2012 - 8:17AM
#54
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
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Some people liked Firefly; I thought it sucked giant turkey ass.
Well, if you are telling the truth, that makes one person that I know of that didn't like Firefly. Firefly was amazing.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 09, 2012 - 8:42AM
#55
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Date Joined:
Feb 22, 2012
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Novacat I assumed it was DM choice depending on which method he was using. Rolling or straight hit points
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6 months ago ::
Dec 09, 2012 - 8:46AM
#56
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Date Joined:
May 17, 2009
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Additionally the best roleplayers I have seen couldn't min/max a character.
I'm a good roleplayer.
I can also Mix/Max
So...do I not exist? 
I have yet to meet you. In my exp. power gamers(aka min/max'ers) have serious issues roleplaying.
You've been in this hobby for a good few years, right? I'd be willing to bet that during that span of time you've met at least one person who was actually a power gamer, but that you never noticed it because he was also a good roleplayer.
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool. | Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner | |
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 09, 2012 - 8:54AM
#57
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Additionally the best roleplayers I have seen couldn't min/max a character.
I'm a good roleplayer.
I can also Mix/Max
So...do I not exist?
I have yet to meet you. In my exp. power gamers(aka min/max'ers) have serious issues roleplaying.
You've been in this hobby for a good few years, right? I'd be willing to bet that during that span of time you've met at least one person who was actually a power gamer, but that you never noticed it because he was also a good roleplayer.
Possible tho not likely, as most of my groups stayed together for several years and we were all good friends. Tho I have played at a convention once, where Traci Hickman ran Ravenloft and I only knew three of the 15 or players at the table.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 09, 2012 - 9:38AM
#58
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They don't really need a mathematician; most of the math involved in D&D is little more than arithmetic. What they need is someone willing to actually do the arithmetic and to spend a few brain cycles on considering what the actual consequences of the numbers are. I cringe a little every time one of the monster articles say someting like "Monster X is dumber than a sack of potatoes (Int 6)", when Int 6 has an all but negligible effect on how many Int checks someone makes - an effect too small for anybody to notice without tracking it very carefully.
I think there's a sense that if you are a TRUE RP HERO, then you shouldn't care too much about numbers because you can get all the fun you need from RP regardless... or something like that? But bad numbers actually interfere with fluff aspects. If a character is supposed to be stupid, but oops, he's successfully making almost as many Int checks as the character who's supposed to be kind of smart, then the game's arbitration mechanic is producing results out of synch with how the world allegedly works. If a character class is supposed to represent the pinnacle of being good at ability X at high levels but some unrelated class that's supposed to have some other focus ends up being better at that thing, then you get another disconnect.
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Here's my theory about why people with small reference pools or cognitive biases or who don't pay much attention or whatever think that people who are interested in the mechanical challenge of the game are bad roleplayers:
There are basically three types of people playing D&D (more or less; this is an abstraction and a simplification.)
1) People who care about the mechanical challenge of the game, but aren't very interested in roleplaying.
2) People who care about roleplaying, but aren't very interested in the mechanical challenges of the game.
3) People who are interested in both roleplaying and in the mechanical challenge of the game.
(Obviously people who are interested in neither exist - in fact they're the largest category of humans - but they don't play D&D, so we don't see them.)
Now, in my experience, group (3) is far and away the largest, and that's probably not that surprising. Most people who are drawn to D&D are likely to choose it because they like multiple things it offers. But there are some people in groups 1 and 2.
If I'm in group 2, I'm (might be) in it for just RP stuff and I don't care about phooey numbers and get those MATHEMATICIANS out of here. (Might be. There are certainly plenty of group 2 people who understand that different people enjoy the same things in different ways.) When I meet someone in group 1, that example is going to be very salient to me, because that person is paying relatively little attention to the part of the game that I consider most important - the part of the game that separates D&D from popular MMORPGS such as World of Warcraft or Everquest or Microsoft Excel. The fact that this person is doing it wrong makes them highly salient to me. From there, I form my single-axis theory of Roleplaying vs Spreadsheets, rather than going with the more realistic model where they're orthogonal axes*.
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*I'm being charitable to people who aren't that into mechanics by calling them purely orthogonal. In practice, people who care enough about roleplaying and the narrative to care that the game's arbitration mechanics match the fluff will tend to be more invested in the numbers.
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer.
"Feel free to claim I said anything you like. How's someone going to call you out on it? Are they going to be all like, 'I know all of the things that Gary said, and that's not one of them?'"
- Gary Gygax
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6 months ago ::
Dec 09, 2012 - 9:47AM
#59
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because people realized that anyone can do fluff, but doing crunch was what took work and forthought. and anyone who has a custom home campain has no use whatsoever for alot of that fluff.
And of course "people" are wrong. Not everyone can do fluff, so for those who cannot do fluff or simply don't have the time to do fluff, fluff needs to be done for them by the game company.
there are a great many people who buy games for and only for the crunch, they can transplant fluff from anywhere.
Then they can ignore the fluff and make their own.
the point is that if part A is going to be used by 100% of the players of the game, and part B is going to be used by 30% of the players then part A deserves more time and effort then part b.
not to mention that fluff is easy and quick to write, for that mater they could copy/paste the fluff for most classes from 4e and be good to go
it also means they need to make sure fluff can be easily taken out of the game, things like smite [alighnment] and favored enemy make things harder to refluff.
Insulting someones grammar on a forum is like losing to someone in a drag race and saying they were cheating by having racing stripes.
Not only do the two things not relate to each other (the logic behind the person's position, and their grammar) but you sound like an idiot for saying it (and you should, because its really stupid )
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6 months ago ::
Dec 09, 2012 - 10:09AM
#60
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Ive removed content from this thread because trolling is a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_...Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the Report Post button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
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