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rampant
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December 7, 2012 10:08 AM PST
If you mean the 4e system, then none, if you mean the playtest system then the drawbacks are individualized to the pact. Or did you mean the game design/fluff drawbacks.
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mexrage
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December 7, 2012 10:14 AM PST
In 4e pact payment depends on the pact...infernal and fey pact basically use the a fragment of the soul or the entire soul of the one slain under their warlock curse as a payment, Vestigue Pact is not exactly a "pact" because you are basically leechi
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bluespruce786
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December 7, 2012 10:16 AM PST
I was curious about how drawbacks have been codified throughout the warlocks history. The only D&D books that I still have are B/E D&D and AD&D So I don't know much about the Warlock. Do you think players on the other side of the fence from you want
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Monsieur_Moustache
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December 7, 2012 10:18 AM PST
The warlock in 3.5 was gothic horror, throwing his own eyes to spy things, turning into a swarm of bats, and spamming destructive elements coming from bad places, and making all of it like walking or breathing.Being a warlock felt like being a living
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bluespruce786
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December 7, 2012 10:27 AM PST
Thank you! I've been looking for that description for a while. So how did the corruption in 3.5 show up? Did the warlock lose ability points as he leveled up? Or was he unable to accept divine healing? Or unable to withstand full daylight! It seems
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mrpopstar
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December 7, 2012 10:29 AM PST
The warlock wields whatever magic he is gifted, bestowed, vested, cursed, or obliged to have by whomever it is he deals with, belongs to, or otherwise petitions for power. If he enters into a diabolical pact with a summoned devil, then he wields the
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Luis_Carlos
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December 7, 2012 10:41 AM PST
The classic witchcraft always has been linked with pacts and pleas to paranormal beings.
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mrpopstar
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December 7, 2012 11:39 AM PST
I disagree. -- You specifically reference witchcraft through the lens of Christian inquisition.Classic witchcraft has always been linked with covens, secrets, ecclectic systems, sympathies, fetishes, and petitioning all manner of spirit, deity, force
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JihVed
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December 7, 2012 12:14 PM PST
A Warlock is not a servant of anything or anyone. He does not have a "benefactor " or a "patron" or any other being that "grants" him power. However he came by it, a Warlock's power is his, and his alone. He does not cast spells. Nothing he does
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Luis_Carlos
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December 7, 2012 12:19 PM PST
...petitioning all manner of spirit, deity, force and ancestor...[/quote]I imagine the warlock like a "peddler" of magic favors. They could have got some inner gift, but it isn´t enough and warlock need "sponsors". Altought warlock didn´t
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Monsieur_Moustache
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December 7, 2012 1:17 PM PST
The corruption was most fluff than anything and represented by gaining class features normally reserved to monsters, like damage resistance only bypassed by special material. Otherwise, the powers themselves were creepy, like this other that allowed
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mrpopstar
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December 7, 2012 1:20 PM PST
The definition of the warlock, as it exists within the game of Dungeons & Dragons, explicitly disagrees with your assertions.The relationship between a warlock and his third party is open to interpretation and can include any manner of pact, which ma
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Zaramon
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December 7, 2012 1:25 PM PST
If you'd actually prefer to work up a variant for that for your own games, I can point you to some good materials for it. 3e Unearthed Arcana has a pretty good amount of non-edition-specific advice. They've already practically done all the work with
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rampant
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December 7, 2012 2:12 PM PST
What if warlocks become the general power at a price casters?The defilers, the black mana users, the devil dealers.Warlocks delve into the forbidden secrets that underly the wizard's spells a wizard asks "how do I cast that spell?" the warlock asks "
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Monsieur_Moustache
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December 7, 2012 2:28 PM PST
I liked that a warlock could just be a loser like Johnny Blaze making a stupid pact and becoming a Ghostrider.The warlock in 3.5 could be anything from the scholar finding how to make a pact with a dark entity, to the guy too lazy or stupid to become
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rampant
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December 7, 2012 2:49 PM PST
Yeah you can, just don't take an arcane friendly background and act like a total moron.
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Zaramon
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December 7, 2012 3:01 PM PST
More good stuff from Monsieur.Their powers, and how they acquire them, are two fundamentally different things.
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Chakravant
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December 7, 2012 3:43 PM PST
If you'd actually prefer to work up a variant for that for your own games, I can point you to some good materials for it. 3e Unearthed Arcana has a pretty good amount of non-edition-specific advice. They've already practically done all the work with
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mrpopstar
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December 7, 2012 3:44 PM PST
Not that all of this doesn't sound sick and awesome, but the concept is broad and over-encompassing. I'd like to think that defilers and black mana users could be built out of any and all magic-wielding classes. I can see defiling wizards, black mana
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Fimbria
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December 7, 2012 3:59 PM PST
Not that all of this doesn't sound sick and awesome, but the concept is broad and over-encompassing. I'd like to think that defilers and black mana users could be built out of any and all magic-wielding classes. I can see defiling wizards, black mana
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Zaramon
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December 7, 2012 4:11 PM PST
If you'd actually prefer to work up a variant for that for your own games, I can point you to some good materials for it. 3e Unearthed Arcana has a pretty good amount of non-edition-specific advice. They've already practically done all the work with
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Chakravant
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December 7, 2012 5:28 PM PST
I happen to be allergic to nWoD, honestly. I helped run one of the largest non-MET oWoD LARPs in the US. I have... issues with the direction they took with nWoD.
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Zaramon
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December 7, 2012 5:30 PM PST
I just said New because that's what I'm both more familiar, and happier with. I didn't like Old World of Darkness, because I felt like some of the combat systems were far too complex, something about multiple actions and phased combat, not entirely u
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Chakravant
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December 7, 2012 5:38 PM PST
As far as I know the systems are quite similar. I do understand the oWoD combat issue though. That was always the biggest problem with playing that system live action.
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Zaramon
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December 7, 2012 6:07 PM PST
There were a lot of things I enjoyed in Old, particularly in Masquerade. That's why I picked up the Vampire Translation Guide. Cruac and Theban Sorcery are cool, but when you want to create, well, a true warlock, thaumaturgy is what you really need,
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Mithrus
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December 7, 2012 6:10 PM PST
oWoD world using nWoD rules = win :)
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Zaramon
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December 7, 2012 6:11 PM PST
Yeah. It's a pity they didn't build on the Vampire Translation Guide. That should have been a springboard for a whole whack of conversions, but it just didn't happen for whatever reason. Sadness.
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trebor_rjf
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December 7, 2012 6:38 PM PST
i think that in essence, the warlock is just the caster who doesn't use the same rules as the wizard or sorcerer.we can argue about flavor specifics for a dozen more pages, but it seems like everyone has their own opinions on how the story for the cl
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bluespruce786
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December 7, 2012 6:42 PM PST
It seems like you have a real connection to the warlock. That’s good, regardless of what the rules or some writer puts down on paper you can play the class any way that you see fit. It’s yours. That is the best thing about D&D; no one can
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bluespruce786
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December 7, 2012 6:43 PM PST
+1
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warrl
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December 7, 2012 6:49 PM PST
4E Warlocks did not have explicit drawbacks, and here's why:* If you take an otherwise balanced class and slap a drawback that actually matters on it, you have an underpowered class.* So then you have to improve it in some way.* And then someone find
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bluespruce786
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December 7, 2012 8:57 PM PST
4E Warlocks did not have explicit drawbacks, and here's why:* If you take an otherwise balanced class and slap a drawback that actually matters on it, you have an underpowered class.* So then you have to improve it in some way.* And then someone find
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Monsieur_Moustache
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December 8, 2012 4:46 AM PST
I'd prefer to see the warlock take back the gothic horror concept to avoid a future crappy vampire class as the only option for it.
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mrpopstar
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December 8, 2012 10:50 AM PST
This.
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Bronze_Hero
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December 8, 2012 1:39 PM PST
Now now let's not be hasty here, Twilight is huge if you publish a class based on a sparkly vampire Edward Cullen you might get a huge influx of new gamers :PActualy shouldn't White Wolf's Vampire be at a all time high ?
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Zaramon
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December 8, 2012 2:22 PM PST
Now now let's not be hasty here, Twilight is huge if you publish a class based on a sparkly vampire Edward Cullen you might get a huge influx of new gamers :PActualy shouldn't White Wolf's Vampire be at a all time high ?[/quote]There's none of the fu
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mrpopstar
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December 8, 2012 2:48 PM PST
I don't believe that anyone is going to call you out for referencing Edward Cullen if you bring up Cú Chulainn in passing conversation. :lol:I've read all of Ms. Myer's books, I'm familiar with Cú Chulainn and the Black Prince, and I ne
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Bronze_Hero
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December 8, 2012 3:07 PM PST
Now now let's not be hasty here, Twilight is huge if you publish a class based on a sparkly vampire Edward Cullen you might get a huge influx of new gamers :PActualy shouldn't White Wolf's Vampire be at a all time high ?[/quote]There's none of the fu
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Zaramon
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December 8, 2012 4:02 PM PST
I don't believe that anyone is going to call you out for referencing Edward Cullen if you bring up Cú Chulainn in passing conversation. :lol:I've read all of Ms. Myer's books, I'm familiar with Cú Chulainn and the Black Prince, and I ne
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mrpopstar
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December 8, 2012 5:09 PM PST
Wierd.LOL And a bummer. -- Nothing like having a character concept laughed out of the room.
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Zaramon
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December 8, 2012 5:17 PM PST
Wierd.LOL And a bummer. -- Nothing like having a character concept laughed out of the room.[/quote]Thankfully the game was a one-shot, so I only had to put up with the snark for one night.
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Rs06
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December 8, 2012 8:43 PM PST
I may be in the minority, but I actually like the idea of fey-pact warlocks. I also like the idea of elemental pact and maybe even celestial pact. For me, a good chaotic warlock can be a very interesting character(one of my favorites, in fact)
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mrpopstar
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December 8, 2012 8:47 PM PST
I wouldn't assume that you're in the minority. Fey Pact warlocks are much loved. :)
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Rs06
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December 8, 2012 8:56 PM PST
I wouldn't assume that you're in the minority. Fey Pact warlocks are much loved. :)[/quote]Glad to hear it. Tried one in 3.5 and loved it. First character I created in 4.0 was Hexblade and loved it. Here's hoping that the Warlock is viable as a ne
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Chakravant
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December 8, 2012 9:01 PM PST
I wouldn't assume that you're in the minority. Fey Pact warlocks are much loved. :)[/quote]Glad to hear it. Tried one in 3.5 and loved it. First character I created in 4.0 was Hexblade and loved it. Here's hoping that the Warlock is viable as a ne
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mexrage
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December 9, 2012 1:17 AM PST
I wouldn't assume that you're in the minority. Fey Pact warlocks are much loved. :)[/quote]Glad to hear it. Tried one in 3.5 and loved it. First character I created in 4.0 was Hexblade and loved it. Here's hoping that the Warlock is viable as a ne
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FallingIcicle
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December 9, 2012 1:40 AM PST
3.5 warlocks didn't have pacts like the 4e ones, but fey were one of the possible origins for a warlock's powers.
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rampant
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December 9, 2012 1:46 AM PST
Um no not really, the warlock pacts in 3e were almost exclusively fiendish.Fey weren't really power player sin 3e like they were in 4e.
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Monsieur_Moustache
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December 9, 2012 4:15 AM PST
It was in the fluff if I remember well. Warlocks gained resistance bypassed by cold iron, and the origin of the dark forces changing the warlock could be dark feys and not wart masters Disney feys.The prestige classes were mostly fiend oriented, whic
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Mithrus
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December 9, 2012 4:22 AM PST
In many ways, I see Warlocks akin to Paladins/Clerics. I want support for many archetypes, essentially any source of supernatural power. An elemental warlock should feel different than an elemental cleric, even if many of their spells are similar. A
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Luis_Carlos
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December 9, 2012 4:55 AM PST
* A hypothetical vampire class has been mentioned and I would like add a thing.That..."template class" should need a different system of magic item reward because the most of living monsters are walking healer potions. Do you rebember the skill "find
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Monsieur_Moustache
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December 9, 2012 4:56 AM PST
There's is the question of which archetype an elemental warlock represent.If warlocks are considered bad guys or anti-heroes, it's because the choice they made to acquire power is evil in itself. Making a pact with or exploiting a curse from fiends,
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Luis_Carlos
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December 9, 2012 5:29 AM PST
A character can be a dark hero, good intentions but feared by the rest, like mutants from X-Mens comics. Warlocks PCs could be good and nobles but with a too much bad reputation, a bad fame.
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Mithrus
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December 9, 2012 6:12 AM PST
Possibly, but I'd rather not make all warlocks irreputable by default. The "how" is certainly important, but the "why" should not be included in a class design.
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Bronze_Hero
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December 9, 2012 11:33 AM PST
I wouldn't assume that you're in the minority. Fey Pact warlocks are much loved. :)[/quote]Glad to hear it. Tried one in 3.5 and loved it. First character I created in 4.0 was Hexblade and loved it. Here's hoping that the Warlock is viable as a ne
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JihVed
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December 10, 2012 5:22 AM PST
The definition of the warlock, as it exists within the game of Dungeons & Dragons, explicitly disagrees with your assertions.[/quote]Unless you quote the source material which states your opinion, that comment is meaningless. This entire thread has
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Garthanos
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December 10, 2012 6:13 AM PST
So its 2 classes total.. 3 if you count the hybrid. Martial, Caster and Hybrid.... just like it all started.
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Mithrus
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December 10, 2012 8:49 AM PST
So its 2 classes total.. 3 if you count the hybrid. Martial, Caster and Hybrid.... just like it all started.[/quote]I prefer Martial, Magical, and Mixed :)
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mrpopstar
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December 10, 2012 9:21 AM PST
The definition of the warlock, as it exists within the game of Dungeons & Dragons, explicitly disagrees with your assertions.[/quote]Unless you quote the source material which states your opinion, that comment is meaningless. This entire thread has
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JihVed
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December 10, 2012 1:33 PM PST
This quote is not from the 3.5 SRD. I found it on this page: dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Warlock_%283.5e_... which explicitly states that it is an alternate build for Warlock made for the Tome series. It is not the Warlock described in Complete Arcane,
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mrpopstar
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December 10, 2012 1:56 PM PST
This quote is not from the 3.5 SRD. I found it on this page: dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Warlock_%283.5e_... which explicitly states that it is an alternate build for Warlock made for the Tome series. It is not the Warlock described in Complete Arcane,
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Chakravant
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December 10, 2012 2:06 PM PST
I'm not going to argue over the semantics of 'as it exists'. -- It's an explicitly straightforward terminology.I will, however, argue that there is a warlock class in D&D Next, which has been stated by the designers repeatedly, and of which we've bee
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mrpopstar
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December 10, 2012 2:09 PM PST
The Binder class from 3.5 might like to take issue with your assertion of the 4E Warlock as having a unique presence.[/quote]I specifically said that the warloack was updated and expanded upon to further differentiate and give it unique presence with
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Monsieur_Moustache
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December 10, 2012 2:15 PM PST
And now we have a warlock that is argued to be too close to wizards or to clerics.I like 4th edition a lot, but the 4th ed. warlock evolution is on the bad side. And the DDN disney pact is even worse.
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Chakravant
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December 10, 2012 2:16 PM PST
The Binder class from 3.5 might like to take issue with your assertion of the 4E Warlock as having a unique presence.[/quote]I specifically said that the warloack was updated and expanded upon to further differentiate and give it unique presence with
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mrpopstar
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December 10, 2012 2:23 PM PST
More equitable, sure (theoretically). Plausible at launch?
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Chakravant
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December 10, 2012 2:25 PM PST
More equitable, sure (theoretically). Plausible at launch?[/quote]If they want DDN to appeal to the fans of multiple editions it had better be a lot more than just plausible at launch.
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Orzel
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December 10, 2012 2:26 PM PST
A warlock is a user of invocations. The ability to use them is either granted by bloodline or contracted through a pact. The main part is that you just can't use invocations without that extraplanar magical link.Now there could be a choice at level 1
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mrpopstar
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December 10, 2012 2:27 PM PST
As long as we have only two systems for defining a class's capability; in this case maneuvers and spells; the comparison to classes that best identify with those systems will always exist. Warlocks will always look like a breed of wizard to those who
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mrpopstar
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December 10, 2012 2:30 PM PST
What about sorcerous bloodlines and all the overlap that creates? Or are sorcerers just 'wizards or warlocks but different'?Warlocks are 'bloodline' only in that one of their ancestors entered into a pact that bargained all of their descendants in th
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Orzel
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December 10, 2012 2:41 PM PST
Sorcerers' magical origin grants them the use of spells.Warlocks' magical origin grants them the use of invocations.Two different unlocks.
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mrpopstar
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December 10, 2012 2:43 PM PST
How do you differentiate spells and invocations when they're both drawing capability from the same universal spell list?And how does that work in terms of sorcerers multiclassing into warlock and vice-versa?How is an invocation different from a spell
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Chakravant
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December 10, 2012 2:45 PM PST
What about sorcerous bloodlines and all the overlap that creates? Or are sorcerers just 'wizards or warlocks but different'?Warlocks are 'bloodline' only in that one of their ancestors entered into a pact that bargained all of their descendants in th
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mrpopstar
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December 10, 2012 2:48 PM PST
What about sorcerous bloodlines and all the overlap that creates? Or are sorcerers just 'wizards or warlocks but different'?Warlocks are 'bloodline' only in that one of their ancestors entered into a pact that bargained all of their descendants in th
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Orzel
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December 10, 2012 2:52 PM PST
From what I understand, invocations are not on the same list as spells. They have lesser effects and are designed to be use both frequently and quickly. It is a separate aspect of the game as a fighter's combat ability to a wizard's spells. There is
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Chakravant
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December 10, 2012 2:53 PM PST
What about sorcerous bloodlines and all the overlap that creates? Or are sorcerers just 'wizards or warlocks but different'?Warlocks are 'bloodline' only in that one of their ancestors entered into a pact that bargained all of their descendants in th
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Monsieur_Moustache
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December 10, 2012 3:10 PM PST
I personnally associate 3.5 sorcerers with their beloved metamagic feats. Draconic feats and things like these were mostly crap except for the handful giving + 1 spellcaster levels or bonus with metamagic.Sorcerers were pure spellcasters extremely fl
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mrpopstar
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December 10, 2012 3:51 PM PST
This is good! :)I believe it all stems from the 3.5E PHB's mention that some sorcerers claim draconic lineage as the source of their magical talent.I'm with you, but here we're defining the class by the mechanics. I'm more inclined to have an awesome
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Chakravant
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December 10, 2012 6:49 PM PST
A single line, unsupported by the base class in any way, shape or form is not going to give the greater D&D community such an impression. Their literacy skills are better than that.
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mrpopstar
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December 10, 2012 6:53 PM PST
A single line, unsupported by the base class in any way, shape or form is not going to give the greater D&D community such an impression. Their literacy skills are better than that.[/quote]Perhaps it's the fact that Pathfinder is considered 'D&D by
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Garthanos
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December 10, 2012 6:54 PM PST
So its 2 classes total.. 3 if you count the hybrid. Martial, Caster and Hybrid.... just like it all started.[/quote]I prefer Martial, Magical, and Mixed :)[/quote]Hehehe.
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Chakravant
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December 10, 2012 7:09 PM PST
A single line, unsupported by the base class in any way, shape or form is not going to give the greater D&D community such an impression. Their literacy skills are better than that.[/quote]Perhaps it's the fact that Pathfinder is considered 'D&D by
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mrpopstar
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December 10, 2012 7:23 PM PST
From the Pathfinder Reference Document:"Scions of innately magical bloodlines, the chosen of deities, the spawn of monsters, pawns of fate and destiny, or simply flukes of fickle magic, sorcerers look within themselves for arcane prowess and draw for
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Orzel
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December 10, 2012 7:39 PM PST
To me, the bloodline is a means to an end. The Sorcerer is a natural. A natural spellcaster.The sorcerer didn't learn how to cast spell via arcane lore, science, and formula. A sorcerer was magical. Somehow the sorcerer could cast spells like monster
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Chakravant
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December 10, 2012 8:13 PM PST
From the Pathfinder Reference Document:"Scions of innately magical bloodlines, the chosen of deities, the spawn of monsters, pawns of fate and destiny, or simply flukes of fickle magic, sorcerers look within themselves for arcane prowess and draw for
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Rs06
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December 10, 2012 9:26 PM PST
Simply put, to those who think that warlock doesn't warrant its own class: I can see the warlock vs. sorcerer debate. Here's the thing, though...the wizard is absorbing some of the spontaneous aspect of the sorcerer. Unless Mearls does a 360 and c
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Mithrus
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December 10, 2012 9:54 PM PST
There is a rediculous amount of overlap between wizards, sorcerers, and warlocks, in that they ALL are pure arcane casters. In the past, what would separate them out was the casting style. With the intent of separating out casting style from class, t
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mrpopstar
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December 10, 2012 10:00 PM PST
+1 What would we call it?
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rampant
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December 10, 2012 10:15 PM PST
A half-way decent idea that won't fly because it's not DnD enough?
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mrpopstar
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December 10, 2012 10:19 PM PST
LOL Best. Name. Ever.
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JihVed
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December 11, 2012 5:13 AM PST
This is good! :)[/quote]So... someone else says exactly what I've been trying to point out the entire time and suddenly you're on board? Frustrating, but I'll take it. :)
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mrpopstar
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December 11, 2012 5:18 AM PST
This is good! :)[/quote]So... someone else says exactly what I've been trying to point out the entire time and suddenly you're on board? Frustrating, but I'll take it. :)[/quote]If this was the whole of your point then I completely missed it. :emba
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wrecan
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December 11, 2012 6:35 AM PST
So its 2 classes total.. 3 if you count the hybrid. Martial, Caster and Hybrid.... just like it all started.[/quote]I prefer Martial, Magical, and Mixed :)[/quote]Wait, wait. How about "Mixed, Martial, Arts"?!
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mexrage
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December 11, 2012 7:53 AM PST
So its 2 classes total.. 3 if you count the hybrid. Martial, Caster and Hybrid.... just like it all started.[/quote]I prefer Martial, Magical, and Mixed :)[/quote]Wait, wait. How about "Mixed, Martial, Arts"?![/quote]No, because that's magic, wrecan
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rampant
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December 11, 2012 8:03 AM PST
Well actually Martial is anything you can use in a fight. Logically there should staff and wand based fighter builds.
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Garthanos
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December 11, 2012 8:54 AM PST
So its 2 classes total.. 3 if you count the hybrid. Martial, Caster and Hybrid.... just like it all started.[/quote]I prefer Martial, Magical, and Mixed :)[/quote]Wait, wait. How about "Mixed, Martial, Arts"?![/quote]Just as long as its not also Cra
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rampant
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December 11, 2012 8:56 AM PST
Wouldn't that be Mcguyver?
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Mithrus
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December 11, 2012 9:07 AM PST
If Riddick can kill you with a teacup...
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Garthanos
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December 11, 2012 9:12 AM PST
He's just magical with a pseudo science flavor package.
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GilbertMDH
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December 11, 2012 10:27 AM PST
Isn't that what comes with Ramen?
