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6 months ago ::
Dec 07, 2012 - 1:26PM
#61
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Date Joined:
Jan 23, 2012
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Well in the new paradigm, the score = the modifier, so I use them pretty much interchangeable. Basically instead of saying "My strength is 18 and my modifier is +4", you'd say "my strength is +4."
Ah. Well, you are certainly free to do that in your games, although I'm not sure how the math will work out in relation to everything else. But if you're having fun, rock on.
Oh, interesting, it seems I missed that in the new packet.
Happens. I miss stuff all the time. I'm sure I've - at least by a strict reading of the packet - misruled something or another at some point. But my group has had fun, and in the cases where we couldn't find a rule, we came up with something and just kept going, so no harm no foul.
For those confused on how DDN's modular rules might work, this may provide some insight: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/11/the-world-of-darkness-shines-when-it-abandons-canon
@mikemearls: Uhhh... do you really not see all the 3e/4e that's basically the entire core system?
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6 months ago ::
Dec 07, 2012 - 1:30PM
#62
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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It's about making sure the brand is recognizable to people who will have heard about it in the popular culture.
The same could really be said about THAC0 and the negative AC scale
No it can't. THAC0 never permeated popular culture. Negative AC never permeated popular culture. Not everything in AD&D became iconic. But ability scores and alignment both did.
You had games of the time like Wizardry and Bard's Tale using negative AC scales
That's not permeation. The Onion never made jokes about THACO. Saturday Night Live never made references to negative AC. They've both made jokes about ability scores.
One could make the argument the 18/00 was a product identity too.
You couldn't make it successfully because it never permeated popular culture.
And we're not talking about getting rid of the ability scores, so much as just changing the scale.
If the change meant that you didn't have an "18 Charisma" as the Onion attirbuted to Bill Gates, then you've gotten rid of the ability score as it pertains to brand identity.
And really, product identity of the type you're talking about is a minor concern anyway.
No, brand identity is crucial. It's one of the most important things that a business can create and it's one of the most precious things ot preserve. Anybody who thinks that "brandidentity" is minor is simply arguing from their conclusion.
You don't weant it to be significant so you're minimizing it.
Look. I hate alignment. I'd love to see it go. but it's not going to happen because algnment is part of D&D's brand identity. I don't have to liek it to ackowledge it's truth.
The 3-18 range of alignment scores are iconic parts of D&D. Wizards would have to be lobotomized to even consider gettign rid of it.
If it's just trying to feed off an older more successful edition, it's going to be a failure.
That's not what brand identity represents. Stop trying to turn everything into your pet peeve.
I find it hard to believe that it's all that important, given in the earliest editions, we didn't even bother to give monsters ability scores.
But PCs always had them and that's what made it iconic. If D&D wanted to get rid of monster ability scores for good design reasons, then fine. But PCs will have the classic six ability scores as long as someone in the company that owns it has half of a functioning brain cell.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 07, 2012 - 1:44PM
#63
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Date Joined:
Mar 11, 2008
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I think things that should be considered before changing it:
1 ) Does it work the way intended?
2 ) Is there a better way?
3 ) Is the benefit of chaging it worth the hassle of doing so?
For this case:
1 ) While the ability score itself has little function, it does not in any way fail to work as intended. It sets ability scores on a Bell Curve, averaging about 12. This sets the assumed variation in ability score modifiers
2 ) You could remove the ability score all together, since it is only the modifier that matters.
3 ) You would have to figure out a new methodology of ability score generation, one that provides a Bell Curve similiar to the one currently provided. Alternatly, you could modify the DCs entirely and remove the Bell Curve to a set of basic assumptions. In both instances, you are setting a severe change to the game in order to fix something that isn't broken.
I think the argument here has been too much why we shouldn't change things, but to ask those who want the change how they justify the change being worth the effort. You may feel you know a better way, but if the changes required would make 10% of the playtesters disapprove, then Wizards will not incorperate the idea.
"If it ain't broke... well give me a hammer and I can change that!"
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6 months ago ::
Dec 07, 2012 - 1:52PM
#64
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Date Joined:
Aug 18, 2007
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I think things that should be considered before changing it:
1 ) Does it work the way intended?
2 ) Is there a better way?
3 ) Is the benefit of chaging it worth the hassle of doing so?
For this case:
1 ) While the ability score itself has little function, it does not in any way fail to work as intended. It sets ability scores on a Bell Curve, averaging about 12. This sets the assumed variation in ability score modifiers
2 ) You could remove the ability score all together, since it is only the modifier that matters.
3 ) You would have to figure out a new methodology of ability score generation, one that provides a Bell Curve similiar to the one currently provided. Alternatly, you could modify the DCs entirely and remove the Bell Curve to a set of basic assumptions. In both instances, you are setting a severe change to the game in order to fix something that isn't broken.
I think the argument here has been too much why we shouldn't change things, but to ask those who want the change how they justify the change being worth the effort. You may feel you know a better way, but if the changes required would make 10% of the playtesters disapprove, then Wizards will not incorperate the idea.
"If it ain't broke... well give me a hammer and I can change that!"
+1
CAMRA preserves and protects real ale from the homogenization of modern beer production.
D&D Grognards are the CAMRA of D&D!
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6 months ago ::
Dec 07, 2012 - 1:53PM
#65
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Date Joined:
Aug 18, 2007
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It's about making sure the brand is recognizable to people who will have heard about it in the popular culture.
The same could really be said about THAC0 and the negative AC scale
No it can't. THAC0 never permeated popular culture. Negative AC never permeated popular culture. Not everything in AD&D became iconic. But ability scores and alignment both did.
You had games of the time like Wizardry and Bard's Tale using negative AC scales
That's not permeation. The Onion never made jokes about THACO. Saturday Night Live never made references to negative AC. They've both made jokes about ability scores.
One could make the argument the 18/00 was a product identity too.
You couldn't make it successfully because it never permeated popular culture.
And we're not talking about getting rid of the ability scores, so much as just changing the scale.
If the change meant that you didn't have an "18 Charisma" as the Onion attirbuted to Bill Gates, then you've gotten rid of the ability score as it pertains to brand identity.
And really, product identity of the type you're talking about is a minor concern anyway.
No, brand identity is crucial. It's one of the most important things that a business can create and it's one of the most precious things ot preserve. Anybody who thinks that "brandidentity" is minor is simply arguing from their conclusion.
You don't weant it to be significant so you're minimizing it.
Look. I hate alignment. I'd love to see it go. but it's not going to happen because algnment is part of D&D's brand identity. I don't have to liek it to ackowledge it's truth.
The 3-18 range of alignment scores are iconic parts of D&D. Wizards would have to be lobotomized to even consider gettign rid of it.
If it's just trying to feed off an older more successful edition, it's going to be a failure.
That's not what brand identity represents. Stop trying to turn everything into your pet peeve.
I find it hard to believe that it's all that important, given in the earliest editions, we didn't even bother to give monsters ability scores.
But PCs always had them and that's what made it iconic. If D&D wanted to get rid of monster ability scores for good design reasons, then fine. But PCs will have the classic six ability scores as long as someone in the company that owns it has half of a functioning brain cell.
Very well said Wrecan.
CAMRA preserves and protects real ale from the homogenization of modern beer production.
D&D Grognards are the CAMRA of D&D!
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6 months ago ::
Dec 07, 2012 - 2:26PM
#66
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Date Joined:
Oct 25, 2010
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No, brand identity is crucial. It's one of the most important things that a business can create and it's one of the most precious things ot preserve. Anybody who thinks that "brandidentity" is minor is simply arguing from their conclusion.
The thing is that D&D has brand identity by default. Nobody other than established roleplayers knows names like Pathfinder or Castles and Crusades or any of the other numerous D&D-clones out there. All the other retroclones use the same ability scores and scale D&D does. They use the majority of mechanics D&D does. And yet D&D gets the fame.
Changing ability scores around isn't going to break that.
The one thing that could break the D&D name is if Hasbro shelves the brand, and other RPGs take over in the vacuum.
The best thing for D&D as a product is simply for the design team to produce the best game they can. If the product produced is crap, it won't matter how much nostalgia or brand identity is packed into it. It won't sell and the thing will get shelved.
There are brand-identity arguments about everything.
"You can't make Mario in 3D, it's always been a sidescroller! When they think mario, they think side scroller!"
"Zelda in 3D? No way, the top down perspective is what made it great!"
"Resident evil human-tank controls? That's like a product identity or something, no way we can take away those!"
With every change, there is always resistance. But sometimes you have to accept that brands need to evolve with the times.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 07, 2012 - 3:46PM
#67
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I don't think we can get rid of them. We can however use them.
Such as
fireball: 1d20+int mod vs Dex score.
HP: Con score.
disarm: 1d20+Str mod vs Str score.
posion: 1d20+5 vs Con score.
taunt: 1d20+Cha vs Wis score.
Ect...
guides
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my builds
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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 07, 2012 - 3:54PM
#68
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Date Joined:
May 22, 2003
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Using ability scores as straight defenses is actually a pretty cool idea. 
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6 months ago ::
Dec 07, 2012 - 6:16PM
#69
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Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2005
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I don't think we can get rid of them. We can however use them. Such as
fireball: 1d20+int mod vs Dex score.
HP: Con score.
disarm: 1d20+Str mod vs Str score.
posion: 1d20+5 vs Con score.
taunt: 1d20+Cha vs Wis score. Ect...
1d20 + attack score - defense score +/- mods >= 10 yields a success. Now the odd scores matter again.
Magic Dual Color Test
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6 months ago ::
Dec 10, 2012 - 5:40AM
#70
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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No, brand identity is crucial. It's one of the most important things that a business can create and it's one of the most precious things ot preserve. Anybody who thinks that "brandidentity" is minor is simply arguing from their conclusion.
The thing is that D&D has brand identity by default.
Brand identity isn't about competition with other RPGs, so your reference to Castles & Crusades and Pathfinder is completely misplaced and iondicates that you aren't listening to what I am writing when I reference brand identity. Anybody who thinks brand identity is about competition amongst RPG brands is not informed abotu the value of brand identity.
Brand identity is about the RPG familiar to the new player. As I said, D&D is the gateway RPG. And being the gateway RPG it sets up certain expectations. the person coming in will have hear things about the brand. One of those things are the six ability score, which ranged from 3 to 18. Take it away and you create a disconnect between what the newcomer expects and what the newcomer finds and you have just squandered the value of your brand.
It's a very serious error to get rid of that without a really really good reason. And "this takes up some space" isn't a really really good reason.
There are brand-identity arguments about everything.
People who don't have any idea about what brand identity is or why it is so important can make ridiculous uninformed arguments about brand identity. But being ignorant of reality doesn't actually change reality.
sometimes you have to accept that brands need to evolve with the times.
Brand do change with the times. but if the designers are smart, their changes preserve the value of the brand, rather than squander it.
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