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7 months ago  ::  Dec 01, 2012 - 7:29PM #121
rampant
Date Joined: Oct 26, 2004
Posts: 8,104
The 1/4th is just math logic re-asserting itself. the templates were half-minotaur, half-dragon, and half-ogre.

Half-dragon gave +8 str, and a +3 la, half-minotaur gave +4, boosted you to large and gave you the +8 from that, all for a measly +1 LA, and half-ogre only increased LA if applied to a creature whose size would be increased (ie someone who was small or medium and since the half-minotaur had already increased the size there was no LA increase from the half-minotaur) but still handed out a +4 str.

Also the draconic template was commonly used for 1/4th dragons.
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7 months ago  ::  Dec 01, 2012 - 7:39PM #122
Zaramon
Date Joined: Oct 19, 2012
Posts: 1,426

Dec 1, 2012 -- 7:29PM, rampant wrote:

The 1/4th is just math logic re-asserting itself. the templates were half-minotaur, half-dragon, and half-ogre.

Strictly taking the templates as they read, you can't have more than two halves. I don't think that it should just be taken for granted that you can take multiple templates of that nature just because it doesn't explicitly state you can't.

Dec 1, 2012 -- 7:29PM, rampant wrote:

Half-dragon gave +8 str, and a +3 la, half-minotaur gave +4, boosted you to large and gave you the +8 from that, all for a measly +1 LA, and half-ogre only increased LA if applied to a creature whose size would be increased (ie someone who was small or medium and since the half-minotaur had already increased the size there was no LA increase from the half-minotaur) but still handed out a +4 str.

Half-ogre is a base race, not a template, and it's auto +1, and doesn't say anything about size. I'm not seeing a half-minotaur anywhere.

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7 months ago  ::  Dec 01, 2012 - 7:45PM #123
rampant
Date Joined: Oct 26, 2004
Posts: 8,104
It's in one of the issues of dragon, article titled: strange bedfellows, had write ups for half minotaur, ogre, satyr, rakshasa, doppleganger, nymph (not fey, but specifically half-nymph), and genie.

As for the 4 halves issue, that's kind of the point. The system allows it, so even if it is crazy and non-sensical to you or me, it's still legal according to the rules of the game. The people writing the rules have to be careful. 3e suffered from sloppyness.
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7 months ago  ::  Dec 01, 2012 - 7:58PM #124
Zaramon
Date Joined: Oct 19, 2012
Posts: 1,426

Dec 1, 2012 -- 7:45PM, rampant wrote:

It's in one of the issues of dragon, article titled: strange bedfellows, had write ups for half minotaur, ogre, satyr, rakshasa, doppleganger, nymph (not fey, but specifically half-nymph), and genie.

See, this is why I don't auto-allow splat, especially redundant splat that tries to deal with concepts that are already better represented elsewhere.

Dec 1, 2012 -- 7:45PM, rampant wrote:

As for the 4 halves issue, that's kind of the point. The system allows it, so even if it is crazy and non-sensical to you or me, it's still legal according to the rules of the game.

I don't remember seeing anywhere that says that is allowed. Combine that with the fact that those templates are "halves" kind of puts a nail into that particular coffin.

Dec 1, 2012 -- 7:45PM, rampant wrote:

The people writing the rules have to be careful. 3e suffered from sloppyness.

Yeah, no argument here. They really could have been more clear on a lot of points.

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7 months ago  ::  Dec 01, 2012 - 8:08PM #125
rampant
Date Joined: Oct 26, 2004
Posts: 8,104
There was no limit on the number of templates that could be applied to a creature, PC or NPC, none of the templates specified  that the creature became ineligible for other half templates. There was no rule written to prevent it, thus it was legal, regardless of whether or not it made logical sense outside the rules of the templates. There were no nails in the coffin.

You didn't even need splat, the splat just provided additional options, you could have a 4 halves beasty with just the MM, admittedly at a much higher LA, but with much better overall stats.
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7 months ago  ::  Dec 01, 2012 - 8:44PM #126
Zaramon
Date Joined: Oct 19, 2012
Posts: 1,426

Dec 1, 2012 -- 8:08PM, rampant wrote:

There was no limit on the number of templates that could be applied to a creature, PC or NPC, none of the templates specified  that the creature became ineligible for other half templates. There was no rule written to prevent it, thus it was legal, regardless of whether or not it made logical sense outside the rules of the templates. There were no nails in the coffin.

See, I have a problem with the assumption that it has to explicitly say you can't do something for you to not be able to do something. Just because it doesn't explicitly say you can't take multiple classes for each individual level doesn't mean you can. Since they're "halves" it would be impossible for there to be more than two halves.

Imagine trying to explain that in character. "I'm half ogre, half human, half troll, half red dragon, half nymph..." More than two halves is impossible, and it doesn't say you can do that, so, I'm going to say it can't be done. Other DMs may disagree with me, but the most stringent interpretation of RAW says no.

Dec 1, 2012 -- 8:08PM, rampant wrote:

You didn't even need splat, the splat just provided additional options, you could have a 4 halves beasty with just the MM, admittedly at a much higher LA, but with much better overall stats.

So long as the LA puts them in line with other characters of that level, I'm okay with that. Then again, generally level adjustments were a bad idea, since they crippled you pretty severely in the long run.

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7 months ago  ::  Dec 01, 2012 - 9:09PM #127
Pashalik_Mons
Date Joined: May 17, 2009
Posts: 7,102
I'll see your interpretation, Zaramon, and raise you by one:  I don't see why you should be able to have more than one "half" template, screw two.  You need to have a base race to apply the template to in the first place.  Base half  +  template half = whole critter.
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven.  You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
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7 months ago  ::  Dec 01, 2012 - 9:13PM #128
EnglishLanguage
Date Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 5,283

Dec 1, 2012 -- 8:44PM, Zaramon wrote:

but the most stringent interpretation of RAW says no.

It's only RAW if there's a rule saying you can only have one. RAI might be what you're aiming at.

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7 months ago  ::  Dec 01, 2012 - 9:15PM #129
rampant
Date Joined: Oct 26, 2004
Posts: 8,104
See that's the point I'm trying to make. RAW allowed it, meaning it was legal unless the DM specified otherwise. It doesn't matter whether you think it's silly. It's completely legal within the standard rules framework.

Just because you think a feat combo is stupidly nonsensical doesn't change the RAW.

I think that 5e packet humans are broken, nonsensical, and a stain upon DnD's honor, doesn't mean that they're not a legal choice of race by RAW.
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7 months ago  ::  Dec 01, 2012 - 9:25PM #130
Zaramon
Date Joined: Oct 19, 2012
Posts: 1,426

Dec 1, 2012 -- 9:09PM, Pashalik_Mons wrote:

I'll see your interpretation, Zaramon, and raise you by one:  I don't see why you should be able to have more than one "half" template, screw two.  You need to have a base race to apply the template to in the first place.  Base half  +  template half = whole critter.

Well that's what I mean. When I said "two halves" I meant one half for the template, and the other half for the base race it is being applied too. Now, that still doesn't stop stuff like the half black dragon troll death knight, but that is super high LA and gimmicky. Fun though.

Dec 1, 2012 -- 9:13PM, EnglishLanguage wrote:

It's only RAW if there's a rule saying you can only have one. RAI might be what you're aiming at.

If you're going to go by RAW, then show me where it says you can have more than one "half" template.

Dec 1, 2012 -- 9:15PM, rampant wrote:

See that's the point I'm trying to make. RAW allowed it, meaning it was legal unless the DM specified otherwise.

If RAW allows it, then you can point to where it says it allows it.