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7 months ago  ::  Dec 02, 2012 - 5:38PM #201
professordaddy
Date Joined: May 25, 2012
Posts: 1,394
My point is that the distinction between mechanics and fluff is pretty much nonexistent.  "flammable" is fluff, not mechanical...it requires a subjective call based on interpretation, aesthetics, and group negotiation.  And the audible and visible character of a fireball is supposedly, yet everyone, without exception, treats it as a mechanical absolute.
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7 months ago  ::  Dec 02, 2012 - 5:38PM #202
Arithezoo
Date Joined: Aug 31, 2008
Posts: 3,429

Dec 2, 2012 -- 5:19PM, professordaddy wrote:

Dec 2, 2012 -- 4:45PM, Arithezoo wrote:



I will use Fireball as an example:

"You hurl a spinning ball of fire with a pea-sized point of flame bright as the sun at its center.  The ball streaks to its target and detonates with an explosion of flame and a low roar.
Effect: Choose a point within 50 feet of you.  Each creature in a 20-foot-radius cloud centered on that point must make a Dexterity saving throw.  A creature takes 5d6 fire damage on a failed save, and half as much damage on a successful one.
The fire ignites unattended flammable objects and damages objects in the area."

See?  Totally separate.  The first part is the flavor.  It describes how you might cast the spell, how it might look and sound.  The second part is the rules.  It tells you how to resolve the action in the context of other game rules.




Does it?  How close must I be to "attend" an object?  Is wet wood "flammable?"  Is a fireball audible and/or visible?


I see.  It is going to be one of these discussions.

Yes, the spell description tells you how to resolve the action in the context of other game rules.  It makes the assumption that the players and DM are humans (yes, a dangerous assumption, I know) with a grasp of language (and thus able to make interpretations and deductions).

Is it the most complete mechanical writeup possible?  Of course not.  But it gets the job done and takes up a minimum amount of space.  Perhaps you would prefer something like this:

Effect: Choose a point (defined as a distinct X, Y, Z coordinate within space, see Chapter 1, subsection VII) within 50 feet (American, equal to about 15.24 m) of you (meaning your character).  Each creature (defined in Chapter 2, subsection XI) in a 20-foot-radius (again, American units, equal to about 6.1 m radius) cloud (defined in Chapter 5, subsection III) centered on that point (that is, the point forms the center of the cloud) must make a Dexterity saving throw.  A creature takes 5d6 fire damage on a failed save, and half as much damage on a successful one.
The fireball involves both visual and auditory elements.  It creates light with an intensity of 1500 lumens with a duration of 1 second (see Chapter 12, subsection X).  In addition, it makes a sound with an intensity of 50 decibels for the same duration (see Chapter 12, subsection XI). 
The fire ignites unattended (defined as objects not being held or within 5 feet of a creature) flammable (defined as things with a rating of F on the European EN 13501-1 scale, see Chapter 5, subsection XXIV for a list of examples) objects and damages objects in the area.

There will always be questions like the ones you asked.  And that is why it is a good thing the game is played with a human DM who can answer them even when it isn't specifically spelled out in the book.

For example, here is what I would say:

1) You are attending an object if you are holding it or adjacent to it (that way you can quickly pat out the flames).  Certain situations would make it difficult (I'd give you a Dexterity check) or impossible.  For example, if you were in melee preventing an adjacent object from igniting would provoke an opportunity attack.
2) No, your fireball does not ignite the wet wood.
3) Your fireball is both visible and audible.  It is a big ball of fire, and most likely makes a sound not unlike the distinctive FWOMPH sound you get when you light your stovetop after releasing a bit too much gas.

Honestly, at this point I'm not sure what you are arguing.  First you brought up things that you are against that aren't happening (not sure how that relates).  Now you bring up the fact that the spell descriptions (in terms of mechanics) don't cover all possible situations and facts.  Where are you going with this?

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7 months ago  ::  Dec 02, 2012 - 5:42PM #203
Matyr
Date Joined: Jun 19, 2004
Posts: 2,726

Dec 2, 2012 -- 5:38PM, professordaddy wrote:

My point is that the distinction between mechanics and fluff is pretty much nonexistent. "flammable" is fluff, not mechanical...it requires a subjective call based on interpretation, aesthetics, and group negotiation. And the audible and visible character of a fireball is supposedly, yet everyone, without exception, treats it as a mechanical absolute.




Flammable isn't subjective.  You all might have to discuss whether something is flammable or not, but things aren't subjectively flammable.  If your next comment is something along the lines of "everything burns" then you won't be able to play with any description of any ruling at all.

Minor Note: I've never thought Fireball made any noise, so in my games it doesn't.  One of the ways I describe the difference between magical fire and non-magical fire is the lack of noise.

Edit: The poster above me is arguing along the same lines, but put way more effort into the display than I did. 

Currently working on making a Dex based defender.  Check it out here
Spoiler: Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running?  Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with?  Check out the Pregen thread here
If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here
Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing".  You can check that out here
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7 months ago  ::  Dec 02, 2012 - 5:47PM #204
Matyr
Date Joined: Jun 19, 2004
Posts: 2,726

Dec 2, 2012 -- 5:38PM, Arithezoo wrote:


Effect: Choose a point (defined as a distinct X, Y, Z coordinate within space, see Chapter 1, subsection VII) within 50 feet (American, equal to about 15.24 m) of you (meaning your character).  Each creature (defined in Chapter 2, subsection XI) in a 20-foot-radius (again, American units, equal to about 6.1 m radius) cloud (defined in Chapter 5, subsection III) centered on that point (that is, the point forms the center of the cloud) must make a Dexterity saving throw.  A creature takes 5d6 fire damage on a failed save, and half as much damage on a successful one.
The fireball involves both visual and auditory elements.  It creates light with an intensity of 1500 lumens with a duration of 1 second (see Chapter 12, subsection X).  In addition, it makes a sound with an intensity of 50 decibels for the same duration (see Chapter 12, subsection XI). 
The fire ignites unattended (defined as objects not being held or within 5 feet of a creature) flammable (defined as things with a rating of F on the European EN 13501-1 scale, see Chapter 5, subsection XXIV for a list of examples) objects and damages objects in the area.




Radius?  So its 2-D?  Or are we talking about a sphere here?  Is it effected by gravity and will thus be slightly less than spherical? 

In this context how do you define "Elements"  Is Oxygen an element that is needed to perform this or not?  What if we are fighting in space? 

Currently working on making a Dex based defender.  Check it out here
Spoiler: Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running?  Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with?  Check out the Pregen thread here
If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here
Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing".  You can check that out here
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7 months ago  ::  Dec 02, 2012 - 5:51PM #205
professordaddy
Date Joined: May 25, 2012
Posts: 1,394
I'm pointing out that, like everyone who blithely declares that rhetoric doesn't matter, and that you're completely in control of your semiotic landscape, you are wrong. You've been using fluff as mechanics and vice versa for years.
Your similarly lackadaisical assertion that new players will easily distinguish fluff from mechanics is also wrong.  Therefore, the fluff matters.  A lot.  And since it does, I think it needs to be as neutral as possible.
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7 months ago  ::  Dec 02, 2012 - 6:02PM #206
Verdegris_Sage
Date Joined: May 7, 2012
Posts: 1,112

Dec 2, 2012 -- 5:51PM, professordaddy wrote:

I'm pointing out that, like everyone who blithely declares that rhetoric doesn't matter, and that you're completely in control of your semiotic landscape, you are wrong. You've been using fluff as mechanics and vice versa for years. Your similarly lackadaisical assertion that new players will easily distinguish fluff from mechanics is also wrong. Therefore, the fluff matters. A lot. And since it does, I think it needs to be as neutral as possible.



I don't often agree with the man with a Rider Fool (not meant as an insult) for an Avatar, but this is a solid point where I do.

 

I have an answer for you, it may even be the truth.
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7 months ago  ::  Dec 02, 2012 - 6:02PM #207
Arithezoo
Date Joined: Aug 31, 2008
Posts: 3,429

Dec 2, 2012 -- 5:47PM, Matyr wrote:

Dec 2, 2012 -- 5:38PM, Arithezoo wrote:


Effect: Choose a point (defined as a distinct X, Y, Z coordinate within space, see Chapter 1, subsection VII) within 50 feet (American, equal to about 15.24 m) of you (meaning your character).  Each creature (defined in Chapter 2, subsection XI) in a 20-foot-radius (again, American units, equal to about 6.1 m radius) cloud (defined in Chapter 5, subsection III) centered on that point (that is, the point forms the center of the cloud) must make a Dexterity saving throw.  A creature takes 5d6 fire damage on a failed save, and half as much damage on a successful one.
The fireball involves both visual and auditory elements.  It creates light with an intensity of 1500 lumens with a duration of 1 second (see Chapter 12, subsection X).  In addition, it makes a sound with an intensity of 50 decibels for the same duration (see Chapter 12, subsection XI). 
The fire ignites unattended (defined as objects not being held or within 5 feet of a creature) flammable (defined as things with a rating of F on the European EN 13501-1 scale, see Chapter 5, subsection XXIV for a list of examples) objects and damages objects in the area.


Radius?  So its 2-D?  Or are we talking about a sphere here?  Is it effected by gravity and will thus be slightly less than spherical? 

In this context how do you define "Elements"  Is Oxygen an element that is needed to perform this or not?  What if we are fighting in space? 


Sorry, I should have included more detail about the "Cloud" shape.  It is 3D, and still involves a radius.  It is not affected by gravity in any noticible way (see Chapter 5, subsection VI).  Elements is described in detail in Appendix F.  Magical Fire is defined nicely in Chapter 3, subsection III.

Minor Note: Your idea of magical fire being noiseless is cool.  It allows for a rather eerie scene involving things like Wall of Fire.  A huge raging inferno that is completely silent.

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7 months ago  ::  Dec 02, 2012 - 6:46PM #208
Matyr
Date Joined: Jun 19, 2004
Posts: 2,726

Dec 2, 2012 -- 6:02PM, Arithezoo wrote:

 Sorry, I should have included more detail about the "Cloud" shape.  It is 3D, and still involves a radius.  It is not affected by gravity in any noticible way (see Chapter 5, subsection VI).  Elements is described in detail in Appendix F.  Magical Fire is defined nicely in Chapter 3, subsection III.

Minor Note: Your idea of magical fire being noiseless is cool.  It allows for a rather eerie scene involving things like Wall of Fire.  A huge raging inferno that is completely silent.




Glad we got those little problems cleared up.  Now I can properly cast my magic spell.

@Minor Note: Adding or taking away senses from stuff is what I do with a lot of magical effects.  Or swapping them out for their polar opposites, if it fits well with what you are working with. 

Currently working on making a Dex based defender.  Check it out here
Spoiler: Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running?  Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with?  Check out the Pregen thread here
If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here
Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing".  You can check that out here
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7 months ago  ::  Dec 02, 2012 - 8:11PM #209
Arithezoo
Date Joined: Aug 31, 2008
Posts: 3,429

Dec 2, 2012 -- 6:46PM, Matyr wrote:

@Minor Note: Adding or taking away senses from stuff is what I do with a lot of magical effects.  Or swapping them out for their polar opposites, if it fits well with what you are working with. 


Wah?  Like smelling colors?  What do you mean by "polar opposites"?

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7 months ago  ::  Dec 02, 2012 - 8:57PM #210
Matyr
Date Joined: Jun 19, 2004
Posts: 2,726

Dec 2, 2012 -- 8:11PM, Arithezoo wrote:

Dec 2, 2012 -- 6:46PM, Matyr wrote:

@Minor Note: Adding or taking away senses from stuff is what I do with a lot of magical effects.  Or swapping them out for their polar opposites, if it fits well with what you are working with. 


Wah?  Like smelling colors?  What do you mean by "polar opposites"?




Something normally hot is now cold, something sticky is slick, something rough is smooth.  Something that isn't normally talked about having a strong taste (like glue) tastes of cayenne pepper and artichokes.

Currently working on making a Dex based defender.  Check it out here
Spoiler: Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running?  Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with?  Check out the Pregen thread here
If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here
Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing".  You can check that out here
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