So, use the math (which I don't think WotC necessarily have good math people) to balance the basic game. Then you take all the other stuff into account and balance that.
Well, I think the math can't be taken in isolation. I know you disagree, and I'm not trying to convince you of anything, so I am happy to leave it at that.
Well, one more thing: there is no need to insult the developers. It serves no constructive purpose.
When the developers break the guidelines they stated with faulty math, it needs to get pointed out. I'm pretty sure they have thicker skin that you think. If they don't, they probably need a different job.
However, the basic math still needs to add up. If my average hit is 29.6 points in a single round, and your average damage is 18.1 points in a single round; that's a disparity. You can look at it as being an isolated case, but it does spill out into the game as a whole. If the ability designed for the most usage (and staple ability for the class from edition to edition) underperforms regularly, the class as a whole will underperform on the average. I found that players usually don't like to underperform. Now those ratings can be adjusted by other class features that we haven't seen yet, and that needs to be taken into account.
But, designing a power that grants an average roll of 30.475 (50% chance of getting that score) when the maximum DC is suppose to be 25 (crunch the numbers for Skill Mastery if you don't believe me)... That can't be fixed by adding stuff to the system. It is poor design, and somebody on the design time failed to look at the basic premise of a power. I knew the numbers were going to be out of whack on this before doing the math. To me, that was an obvious no-brainer.
In another thread, a poster quoted a WotC book, granted its 3e book, that states that 4d6 drop the lowest die increases the average score from 10.5 to 11.5. That is patently false. A 4d6 drop the lowest die averages 12.2446 (I crunched the number; hell, I even talked to a professor in Mathematics about it). Math has come out of this company that is just wonky. Now, using an incorrect method, I can get to 11.5 (acutally 11.51 - 11.54 something; I forgot the exact value of doing it incorrectly). That just tells me that the company is not paying attention to the math.
Then you have a 4e power, Rains of Blow, that was printed in the PHB but needed an errata due to the math being broken. You start painting a picture of a company that has difficulty with math.
So, calling them out for incorrect math isn't a bad thing. They are producing a product that they want you to buy. That product should be the best product possible. So, when they make a mathematical error, especially one that can potentially cascade throughout the game, that is just out there, it needs to be pointed out. If they demostrate a history of performing bad calculations (or fail to consider basic calculations), the customer base should point it out. And tell them that is unacceptable and not something that is going to be tolerated. You can call it insulting. I just call it being demanding of getting the basics right so they have a chance at producing a decent product.
Now, if WotC had isolated cases of bad math. I probably wouldn't be "insulting." However, we're talking of a systematic inability to do math.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
You sure about that? He can still punch you. With a vastly superior hit rate to you.
If the fighter stops using his action to dodge, or uses his dice offensivly, then he dies quicker.
Why even bother using the dice offensivly? I mean, in any game where I can play a tank that is merely invincible, I do it. Enemies can't hit you and you hit them for a smal amount of dmg. Results? They die slower than if you have played offensivly, but you are sure to survive the fight, which wouldn't be true if you had played offensivly.
This is exactly the kind of problem the author of this thread showed up.
You sure about that? He can still punch you. With a vastly superior hit rate to you.
If the fighter stops using his action to dodge, or uses his dice offensivly, then he dies quicker.
Why even bother using the dice offensivly? I mean, in any game where I can play a tank that is merely invincible, I do it. Enemies can't hit you and you hit them for a smal amount of dmg. Results? They die slower than if you have played offensivly, but you are sure to survive the fight, which wouldn't be true if you had played offensivly.
This is exactly the kind of problem the author of this thread showed up.
There is a guy on Enworld threads who does number crunching with a computer program he devised. He ran a party of dwarven fighters through thousands of hypothetical encounters, changing the encounter difficulties, and other variables in different runs. He acknowledges that it is much more likely that the party continues further and succeeds more often (even against more difficult encounters) when the fighters use Parry instead of Deadly Strike. I loved reading his posts...forgot his name though. As you say, SatLeBaron, this is definitely something to consider.
I would rather that the same CHARACTER is not capable of both dealing and absorbing more damage than any other.
I don't mind if a character can be built that is nearly impossible to kill with a similar level monster that just slugs away in melee (I often play this type of character myself). The enemies can also use ranged attacks, charm effects, run away, complete the ritual, kill the character's friends, etc.
The same super-durable Parry-using character should not, IMO, just flip a switch (use Deadly Strike) and decide he wants to one-shot enemies this fight, or this round, at-will.
Even if the Fighter is going to cover any type of mundane melee focused concept, I don't think a single Fighter being either the deadliest or most durable (depending on the player's whim that round) is the way to go.
Where does this leave the other melee classes if the fighter is always going to be so much more capable?
Am I the only one who finds it problematic that parry makes fighters near-impossible to kill? I ran the numbers, a 4th level fighter with CON 14 and AC 17 (chainmail+shield) who uses dodge and both his expertise dice to parry can survive for 6.4 turns against a lvl 9 black dragon. That's with all three of the dragon's attacks going at him. A dragon 5 levels over him, designed to be a "tough" encounter for 9 PCs of his level. Meanwhile, his 2.3 fighter buddies with longbows have no trouble dispatching the dragon without taking a scratch. Just over a third of the party that should find it challenging, and only 1 of them ever takes damage. At level 9, he can survive for 17.7 turns against the dragon's full brunt. Am I the only one that thinks that needs to be revisited? And that's the best case scenario, going solo against an at-level plesiosaurus (first non-wierd lvl 4 single-attacker I saw) who doesn't get multiple attacks to get around parry, he can survive 24 rounds. Against an at-level Dark Adept or Dark Priest, he is on average invulnerable (only takes damage when he rolls crap parry and the monster rolls high damage, and even only 1 in 5 of those times because there's an 80% chance the monster'll miss). And that's before I give him magic armor, or a cleric tossing heals at him. And people complain 4e characters were too durable?
So a skilled warrior using his action and expertise dice to focus only on defense is hard to kill??
You don't say!
Maybe your numbers would be better off using zombies instead of intelligent monsters. No dragon is going to spend 64 rounds attacking the fighter in the exact same way and failing every time. The new Wizard spell Burning Hands is an at-will aoe that deals 1d6 damage. That means he can technically kill like 7 kobolds/round forever and ever. But these situations don't actually happen if you play the game correctly. This is more of a common sense thing. It's the DM's responsibility to not play intelligent monsters as mindless XP fodder.
That argument aside, I'm perfectly okay with the Fighter being that durable. That's his job. And think about the awesomely epic roleplaying opportunities here! Say the party has to complete some goal but there's a Big Bad Evil Guy in the way. The Fighter says, "I'll hold him off, you guys go do the XXXX!" The Cleric toss his a quick buff and the party leaves him to go finish the task at hand. That's a Fighter doing what a Fighter does best.
