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7 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 2:12PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Sep 25, 2009
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Am I the only one who finds it problematic that parry makes fighters near-impossible to kill? I ran the numbers, a 4th level fighter with CON 14 and AC 17 (chainmail+shield) who uses dodge and both his expertise dice to parry can survive for 6.4 turns against a lvl 9 black dragon. That's with all three of the dragon's attacks going at him. A dragon 5 levels over him, designed to be a "tough" encounter for 9 PCs of his level. Meanwhile, his 2.3 fighter buddies with longbows have no trouble dispatching the dragon without taking a scratch. Just over a third of the party that should find it challenging, and only 1 of them ever takes damage. At level 9, he can survive for 17.7 turns against the dragon's full brunt. Am I the only one that thinks that needs to be revisited? And that's the best case scenario, going solo against an at-level plesiosaurus (first non-wierd lvl 4 single-attacker I saw) who doesn't get multiple attacks to get around parry, he can survive 24 rounds. Against an at-level Dark Adept or Dark Priest, he is on average invulnerable (only takes damage when he rolls crap parry and the monster rolls high damage, and even only 1 in 5 of those times because there's an 80% chance the monster'll miss). And that's before I give him magic armor, or a cleric tossing heals at him. And people complain 4e characters were too durable?
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7 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 2:18PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Nov 11, 2011
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I do agree that parry seems powerful, but as I recall, nothing prevent the monster from switching target like in 4th ed with the marks. So, unless the monsters are all in a line in a corridor, this shouldn't happen. That being said, I think it is still pretty stupid that one class can be that strong. Yes, the fighter is the class made to be the thoughest and strongest in direct combat (since he doesnt have any skills benefit like the rogue), but it could be at least normalized to his level. What I mean by that is that I wouldnt be annoyed by a fighter lasting 6 rounds against a monster of his level. The problem is that it's a monster of 5 level over him...  Overall : good thinking my friend.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 2:22PM
#3
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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a 4th level fighter with CON 14 and AC 17 (chainmail+shield) who uses dodge and both his expertise dice to parry can survive for 6.4 turns against a lvl 9 black dragon. .... Am I the only one that thinks that needs to be revisited?
The developers have already acknowledged that monsters are not challenging. Last playtest they were overwhelmingly hard and now they are overwhelmingly easy. The developers are looking for feedback to see what people think of these levels of mortality.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 2:27PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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Well if the fighter doesn't have Mighty Exertion or Controlled Fall, the dragon can use the blue dragon method: breathweapon-grab-fly-drop.
But yeah fighters are tough.
Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds.
Constitution Based Class for Next!
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7 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 2:33PM
#5
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Date Joined:
May 27, 2012
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It essentially works out to granting yourself a whole whack of temporary hit points, every round, as a non-action. Unless they tweak all of the numbers, it would indeed trivialize most threats at a personal level.
The metagame is not the game.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 5:12PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Sep 25, 2009
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Wrecan:
Making monsters more powerful doesn't quite fix the problem. As it stands, monsters tough enough to dent the fighter end up mashing the wizard into an unrecognizable pulp. I can get behind fighters having twice as much HP, maybe even 2x HP and 1/2x hit chance, but when you add 7 THP/turn on top of that the differential is just unconscionable. It needs to be taken down a ton.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 5:27PM
#7
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Date Joined:
May 26, 2012
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The only monster that I found to be as challenging as the challenge rating suggested is the Hydra. But then maybe I'm missing the trick on that one.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 5:46PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Feb 22, 2012
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Am I the only one who finds it problematic that parry makes fighters near-impossible to kill? I ran the numbers, a 4th level fighter with CON 14 and AC 17 (chainmail+shield) who uses dodge and both his expertise dice to parry can survive for 6.4 turns against a lvl 9 black dragon. That's with all three of the dragon's attacks going at him. A dragon 5 levels over him, designed to be a "tough" encounter for 9 PCs of his level. Meanwhile, his 2.3 fighter buddies with longbows have no trouble dispatching the dragon without taking a scratch. Just over a third of the party that should find it challenging, and only 1 of them ever takes damage. At level 9, he can survive for 17.7 turns against the dragon's full brunt. Am I the only one that thinks that needs to be revisited? And that's the best case scenario, going solo against an at-level plesiosaurus (first non-wierd lvl 4 single-attacker I saw) who doesn't get multiple attacks to get around parry, he can survive 24 rounds. Against an at-level Dark Adept or Dark Priest, he is on average invulnerable (only takes damage when he rolls crap parry and the monster rolls high damage, and even only 1 in 5 of those times because there's an 80% chance the monster'll miss). And that's before I give him magic armor, or a cleric tossing heals at him. And people complain 4e characters were too durable?
No, I've been complaining about this forever. Deadly Strike and Parry Need to go. They are the only two manuevers that a fighter should ever be using and they are both broken and ruin the expertise system.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 5:48PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Feb 22, 2012
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a 4th level fighter with CON 14 and AC 17 (chainmail+shield) who uses dodge and both his expertise dice to parry can survive for 6.4 turns against a lvl 9 black dragon. .... Am I the only one that thinks that needs to be revisited?
The developers have already acknowledged that monsters are not challenging. Last playtest they were overwhelmingly hard and now they are overwhelmingly easy. The developers are looking for feedback to see what people think of these levels of mortality.
This isn't a monster issue. This is a fighter issue. If you make monsters that can take on the fighter they will easily kill any party that doesn't have a fighter. Further this just encourages the DM to attack everyone else except the fighter who he knows is going to be pointless to waste an attack on.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 6:02PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2008
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Ok, so what level of damage reduction (through maneuvers like Parry) is acceptable? How about if you roll all the dice and take the highest?
I personally don't see it being an issue. In my game the fighters didn't even use Parry (the melee fighter preferred deadly strike and spring attack, and the ranged fighter preferred deadly strike and volley).
It can only be used once/round (and using it means you can't use any other reactions), and it only works against melee attacks.
So it becomes an issue of tactics, which I think is a good thing. The PCs want to manipulate the battle so that the melee foes are attacking the fighter. The enemy will want to get those melee foes attacking other targets, and hit the fighter with ranged attacks or spells.
When I see people say things like, "I ran the numbers for a Level X Blank vs a Blank, and the Blank could survive for X rounds!", I always think that they are missing the point.
First point: the Fighter SHOULD be tough. That is his thing. It would be like saying, "Guys, I ran the numbers, and Rogues are really good at picking locks...or Clerics are good at healing". I guess this is a problem if you don't think that these should be the case, but I think it is a good thing for classes to have strengths.
Second: The dragon isn't just sitting there attacking. What about breath weapon? What about Darknes (good luck parrying when you can't see)? What about just picking up the fighter and flying him 200 feet into the air?
Have you played with the fighter using Parry or is this all conjecture based on the numbers? If you haven't, try playing it out. The Fighter is tough, but he is only blocking a single melee attack each round, and at the cost of dealing extra damage or doing other maneuvers.
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