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6 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 1:56AM
#21
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The question isn't about number of options, its about complexity. Maybe I'll add some questions about options.
If there is a direct relationship between options and complexity, how are you separating the two? basically every time you add an option, you require an exception or addtion to the system to allow for that option to function in the context of the larger system.
That's really an academic question though, really the issue is the way it's phrased leads the people being polled. Everyone wants simple things. Everyone wants flexible things and everyone wants things to make jobs easier.
What would be a more interesting question would be one that isn't zero-sum, like "how much complexity is necessary to express most challenges?"
That's not the point of the poll though. It is to see if complexity is desirable, not how much complexity is required to do one thing in the game...
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6 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 1:58AM
#22
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lol, you really should work for the government Lokiare you have a knack for loaded question to get poll results.
How about a more impartial question like.
Would you prefer to have a simpler DM experiance if it ment less options, or would you prefer a more complex DM experiance that offers more options?
Those two aren't mutually exclusive. That's the part you don't seem to understand. They can actually make a simpler game with lots of options, they can also make a complex game with fewer options...
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6 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 2:00AM
#23
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Date Joined:
Apr 22, 2001
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Those two aren't mutually exclusive. That's the part you don't seem to understand. They can actually make a simpler game with lots of options, they can also make a complex game with fewer options...
Lokiare  , I think everyone understands that, I think the point here is that there is no logical reason for anyone to choose complexity over simplicity. Your basically saying, would you like something good, or something bad?
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6 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 2:02AM
#24
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2012
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I can get a much more accurate measure of whether it's desirable by figuring out how much most folks consider necessary. People get annoyed with things that are too complicated pretty damn quickly and if stuff doesn't allow for what they want they get equally frustrated. By asking them to respond to a range of options with qualifying words like "not very, some, very, exhaustive" you can get a sense for the relative level of complexity that's desirable. By extension, you then can say whether or not a complicated system is more or less desirable. The basic issue you're getting at is more complicated than what a yes or no question can tell you. The best question about complexity is "what edition did you find more complicated to DM" because each had their places where they required more or less system mastery on the part of the DM. We can use the results there to get a feel for what people find desirable - but only after some analysis of where the complexity rested in each edition.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 2:03AM
#25
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Those two aren't mutually exclusive. That's the part you don't seem to understand. They can actually make a simpler game with lots of options, they can also make a complex game with fewer options...
Lokiare , I think everyone understands that, I think the point here is that there is no logical reason for anyone to choose complexity over simplicity. Your basically saying, would you like something good, or something bad?
Some people like complexity for complexities sake. In the 5MWD threads people keep telling us that they want the DM to have more work and a more complex system. I'm simply polling to get some frame of reference on that topic to see if people really like DMing to be complex. I thought the answer was obvious too, but apparently it still needs to be asked...
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6 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 2:04AM
#26
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I can get a much more accurate measure of whether it's desirable by figuring out how much most folks consider necessary. People get annoyed with things that are too complicated pretty damn quickly and if stuff doesn't allow for what they want they get equally frustrated. By asking them to respond to a range of options with qualifying words like "not very, some, very, exhaustive" you can get a sense for the relative level of complexity that's desirable. By extension, you then can say whether or not a complicated system is more or less desirable.
The basic issue you're getting at is more complicated than what a yes or no question can tell you.
The best question about complexity is "what edition did you find more complicated to DM" because each had their places where they required more or less system mastery on the part of the DM. We can use the results there to get a feel for what people find desirable - but only after some analysis of where the complexity rested in each edition.
I'll add the question but how exactly would you phrase that?
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6 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 2:08AM
#27
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Date Joined:
Apr 22, 2001
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Some people like complexity for complexities sake. In the 5MWD threads people keep telling us that they want the DM to have more work and a more complex system. I'm simply polling to get some frame of reference on that topic to see if people really like DMing to be complex. I thought the answer was obvious too, but apparently it still needs to be asked...
I have read that entire forum post series and I don't see anyone saying the system is to simple, lets make it more complex because complexity is good. People are offering more complex solutions to be more specific and get a desired effect (the elimination of the 5MWD) but that's a by product of trying to take a system problem created for simplicities sake and solving it, which leads to more complexity which some people find ok as long as the problem is solved. Which leads me back to the point that simpler always means less options because by the very virtue of trying to keep it simple you have to cut down options and vice versus by adding options you are making the system more complicated. One cannot be removed from the other, which is what I think you and I disagree on, you appear to believe that you can have lots of options and maintain a simple system. I challenge you to provide evidence in gaming or otherwise where this is true because I honestly can't think of a single thing that has become simpler to use, yet is less complicated. I mean I can barely operate my bloody cell phone today, it has more options than I know what to do with, its more complex... but has more options.. as an example.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 2:10AM
#28
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Date Joined:
Apr 22, 2001
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Besides I mean just look at this question Lokiare
"Would you like simpler or more complex rules to make your experience as a DM easier?"
Would you like SIMPLER or more complex rules to make your experiance as a DM EASIER? How would making the system more complex also make it easier? Your practically voting for them in this question in particular.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 2:13AM
#29
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Date Joined:
Oct 11, 2009
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Good Poll Lokiare, looking forward to seeing the results.
One thing I would have changed though is the word complexity in the question "Would you like simpler or more complex rules to make your experience as a DM easier?" . Simply put its kind of a loaded question, of course we want it simpler. But the question really should be do you want more options or less options, as less options would make it simpler, more options will make it more complex. When you just ask about complexity, its natural to not want that, after all, why would you want something more complicated. But if you reckognize that the trade off for simplicity is less options (which is always the case) the results I think would be different as I think many people would be willing to live with complexity, if it ment more options and additonal flexibility.
But other than that, looks good.
On the contrary, I want simpler rules and more options (rules to choose from). So they are not mutually exclusive choices; or, rather, simplicity does not always mean less options.
I want less rules that are "set in stone" and more rules that I can use, or not use, at my discretion.
@Lokaire, I tried to vote but nothing happened when I pressed the Vote buttons.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 2:16AM
#30
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Date Joined:
Apr 22, 2001
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I want less rules that are "set in stone" and more rules that I can use, or not use, at my discretion
Sure I get that. You want simple rules at the core and optional rules you can choose or choose not to use. In either case however by the virtue of choosing to use additional rules will make your game more complex.
In either case none of these questions actually ask that. They simply state would you like to have an easier time GMng (good option) or a harder time running your game (bad option). Its a silly question, I can't imagine people are out to punish themselves into having a harder time GMing by choosing option B.
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