Community

Wandering Monsters 
Soldiers of the Blood War
By James Wyatt

Two weeks ago, I showed off the story brief I wrote to guide our design team in putting together the beholder for D&D Next. This week, I have the easiest column in the world to write, because I'm pretty much just pasting in those story briefs for a whole bunch more monsters.

Talk about this column here.

Looks like the Blood War is back on. Finally. Oh, and the rest of the article was okay, too.

Good ol' Blood War ! I think James was pretty much spot on on all of his descriptions.

PS I think Succubi should be Demons again. 

Nov 19, 2012 -- 10:34PM, Plaguescarred wrote:

Good ol' Blood War ! I think James was pretty much spot on on all of his descriptions.

PS I think Succubi should be Demons again. 

Agreed.  Oh and I would like a few more powers to set them a little more apart as being supernatural 

Give them more magic and not just combat magic. Creatures have a life and role outside combat. 

I'm sure some people will say the DM can just make those spells happen, but sometimes these spark ideas are and very useful for new DMs who do not have 20 years of experience of roleplaying.  

* I never say Balor, I say Baldrog...(Some names can be changed when they are said by people who speak other language).

* We agree demons/abyssmals are chaotic and devil/baatorians are lawful, but chaothic doesn´t total anarchy. Anarchist can´t build strongholds in the Abyss. Anarchy is only a tendency, with exceptions like state-cities.

I imagine brood wars (I am sorry, I am thinking about Sarah Kerrigan..)......I imagine the blood war like a evil vesion of UN Peacekeeping blue-beret soldiers agains warlods of failen states.


* Zombies are cool, zombies are in fashion, killing zombies is fun... and manes are like zombies.

I would allow "improved version" of manes, like sentient creatures..(it would the exceptions, of course, or because they are about to evolve to the next step of fiend hierarchy, or higger demons who were punished with lower shape like humilliation).

I don´t find the right words... but I would like suggest a zombie-like creature wouldn´t be a true undead but a infected+possesed linked to manes. (have you seen Spanish horror movie "REC"?). Imagine the great surprise when cleric cast spells againt undeads and he realise the fat dwarf zombie isn´t a undead but a outsider.


And lemures like infected zombi-like creatures with the gelatinous template from Savage Species. Do you rembember a 2006 horror movie, the slitther? Imagine a parasitic ooze that transform bodies in D&D lemures..(like a little ghoul/zombie plague).


Manes and lemures would be more terrorific if they were used like simbiotic graft by crazy spellcasters... or like a biological weapon to create horror.

Let´s imagine a sadistic warlock who has punished a slave and he has been possesed by a mane, trasforming his body, and he now is a "pet" who looks a mixture of bulldog and the chatter beast from "Hellraiser: Bloodline". 

How would be manes and lemurs if they were monsters from a serie B horror movie (or survival horror videogame like Dead Space)?

* I miss the D&D erinyes. If a module of monster classes is allowed, D&D erinyes should be the first monster class from fiend list. Or create a racial speciality/subclass/build to start like tienfling who transforms to erinyes step by step without breaking balance of power.


* D&D fiends need motives or they will be only the monsters of Act IV from Diablo II. If I could I would plagiarize some ideas (about factions, sebettu/houses) from "Demon: the fallen" by White Wolf. (I suposse other companies isn´t too polite, but D&D is my favorite and I don´t like WW too much). 

Overall not too bad. It's good to see the Blood War back in what appears to be its classic 2e/3e configuration. The mention of demodands/gehreleths warms my black, twisted Planescape-loving heart. :D

It would have been cool to see an equal exploration of the various types of yugoloths. Perhaps as a followup piece? Being that they started the Blood War and actively keep it going, they deserve it.

Succubi need to go back to being demons though. They've been classic demons for three editions - almost longer than I've been alive, and the 4e change of their status not only sticks out like a sore thumb, it causes massive continuity headaches. They should be demons by default, and handled as a campaign setting level change for a 5e Nentir Vale if presented as devils.

I sort of liked the 4e planar cosmology.  I'd be happy if demons were born of corrupted primordials.  The Blood War in the old cosmology was a bit dull but I can see how it can be given more dimensions if it about more than just Law v chaos.  I too want to see Eryines return to more mythical roots as diabolic enforcers.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 12:03AM, Shemeska_the_Marauder wrote:

Overall not too bad. It's good to see the Blood War back in what appears to be its classic 2e/3e configuration. The mention of demodands/gehreleths warms my black, twisted Planescape-loving heart. :D

It would have been cool to see an equal exploration of the various types of yugoloths. Perhaps as a followup piece? Being that they started the Blood War and actively keep it going, they deserve it.

Succubi need to go back to being demons though. They've been classic demons for three editions - almost longer than I've been alive, and the 4e change of their status not only sticks out like a sore thumb, it causes massive continuity headaches. They should be demons by default, and handled as a campaign setting level change for a 5e Nentir Vale if presented as devils.

Yes, I am pleased at the mention of yugoloths, and would have liked him to elaborate just a tad, they didn't get the same treatment as the demon and devil.

And agree succubus should be a demon, especially considering Malcanthet has her own abyssal layer.

I like the use of spells, and glabrezu effectively having wizard levels.
 
Next, Modrons!

The Bloodwar was great. It gave a good reason for the various powers to have their minions actively doing stuff, not just paitently waiting in the outer planes for a high enough level party to visit.

I liked the 4th edition cosomology, the old Great Wheel seemed to have filler planes (LE/NE-Between Hell and Hades) etc.

I like the idea of some 'fiends' working for both sides or their own ends.

I didn't like the large amount of immunities they had in 3rd edition, i'd prefer one immunity and a few resistances.
For Example - Devils immune to fire, resistant to magic. Demons immune to cold, resistant to magic. Neither resistant to poison or electricity. Both vulnerable to holy and silver.

All Devils and Demons that are large or over 8HD should have a Fear aura, similar to Dragons.

Having different fiends with different roles is good, eg some have illusion spells, other have AOE spells, others have necromancy.

You could even link some to the Githyanki vs Githzerai war, thus some encounters on the Astral, Hell, Abyss and Prime material is part of a large web of interested parties.

The division of fiends into lawful devils and chaotic demons is one of D&D's coolest ideas. The actual execution of it is one of D&D's greatest missed opportunities. There's no reason we can't do a better job at building a design ethos for devils and demons that makes it clear why they're even considered coherant families of creatures at all, especially if you're going to try to cram a bunch of other fiend groups into the game. (Why do both Yugoloths and Devils have a bipedal insect with a spear? We could keep motifs at least a little different.) This doesn't have to be a visual overhaul, although one wouldn't be out of place.

The article does an okay-ish job of it, but I still think that priority number one for the blood war should be stepping back and figuring out what it actually means to be a devil or a demon and why two dozen refugees from the reject art dumping ground are randomly considered one or the other besides whatever was randomly scratched into their "alignment" entry whenever they first appeared. The radius of a giant spear-wielding ice bug's fear aura is less important than why a giant spear-wielding ice bug is one of the more prominant and enduring devils. The best sentence in the article is the one that says that devils are generally humanoid, because it's something that indicates that it's at least crossed their minds that devils and demons shouldn't be just completely indistiguishable except for one has a rigid formal hierarchy (that everyone wants to circumvent) and the other has no hierarchy, just an ordering based on relative strength where stronger ones can boss around the weaker ones. Oh, and they have different arbitrary elemental resistances, that's a biggie.

I wasn't sure what to put down for the survey questions. Yeah, the Nalfeshnee is a sparkle magic boarface gorilla. That's pretty much what a Nalfeshnee is. It's less clear to me that that's what a Nalfeshnee should be. There's this weird conflation of "this looks exactly like what I'm used to" and "this is what I want these creatures to look like". Similarly, the first question needs an "I appreciate the efforts to incorporate the history of these creatures into their Next designs, but many of them are completely incoherant and should be redesigned into streamlined fiendish badasses instead of creatures that look like they were designed by tearing up a monster manual and dumping the shreds onto a sticky surface."

I'm not saying that D&D Next should junk everything that came before when it comes to monster design, but where the antecedants are goofy, incoherant designs it should look for ways to refresh them, not ape them as closely as possible.

Hmm  I guess I'm in the minority - I liked the switch of Succubi to devils.  It made a lot more sense to me.  Personally I remember having some pretty lusty thoughts after seeing the picture of the Succubus in the MM1 way back when, and that seems like devil territory to me! 

@ steely_dan:  The recent dragon mag on the blood war has an ecology of the Succubus which explains why/how the 4e version of Malcanthet has an abyssal layer, if your interested.

It would be a good time to revise the look and style of the two groups.

There is certainly a plethora of styles from our own worlds animals and plants we can borrow from

say mammals and avians for demons, then reptiles, insects, plants and sealife for devils.

The above might sound limiting, but its not.

Yes so a devil with fish scales and two eel heads might breath water, but so what? the layers of Hell and the Abyss are certainly not your regular plaines with blue sky up above.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 2:24AM, dave2008 wrote:

@ steely_dan:  The recent dragon mag on the blood war has an ecology of the Succubus which explains why/how the 4e version of Malcanthet has an abyssal layer, if your interested.

Very interested in all fiendish lore, is it a bit like the Grazzt deal?

Do I have to pay for the article? 

Nov 20, 2012 -- 2:30AM, BlakeRyan wrote:

say mammals and avians for demons,

Demogorgon needs tentacles.

Lots of stuff going on here, but pretty good overall. Both Devils and Demons sound very 3e in this setup. Which isn't bad, many of the 4e ones where boring and their powers where badly laid out. I like the fact that Devils have a general overall design and Demons don't. I would actually like to see this played up more, with the more inhuman devils moved towards more humanoid forms and Demons playing up the exotic without any degree of internal consistency.

In 2e and 3e the infernal creatures often had an excessive list of marginally useful power to draw upon, but 4e went too far in stripping them down. Low ranked demons and devils should have a couple of powers and higher ranked ones should have a suit of powers to draw from rather then 4e model of one or two for low ranked creatures and just a couple for powerful ones.

I'm not sure what the best solution to Succubus position is, except to say that every side needs something to fill that role. Allowing them to be LE-CE makes sense but breaks some general world logic.

I'm surprised that nobody noticed the biggest revelation here, which is the return of magic resistance. That worries me, because it was traditionally more of a patch to help cover for D&D's poor balance of magical power. If spells are balanced properly and monsters powerful enough, there shouldn't be any need for magic resistance. However, I'm not going to condemn it entirely until I see the actual mechanics.

Happy to read that the yugoloths will be returning to the game.

So far it looks like the designers have been reading the 2e monster manual for ideas, which is great news.  The resistances are very similar to what 2e did, although it's not as extensive.

"Demons have a handful of common features. They're resistant to cold, fire, and lightning, and, except for the very weakest demons (manes, dretches, and quasits), they have magic resistance. They have darkvision. They have the telepathic ability to communicate with any intelligent creature."

"Devils have a handful of common features. They're resistant to cold and immune to fire, and except for the very weakest devils (lemures) they have magic resistance. They all have darkvision and a special form of telepathy that allows them to communicate with any intelligent creature."

vs

2e demons and devils
Spoiler: Show

Finally, the Erinyes is a devil and the Succubus is a demon!

Nov 20, 2012 -- 5:57AM, JayM wrote:

I'm surprised that nobody noticed the biggest revelation here, which is the return of magic resistance. That worries me, because it was traditionally more of a patch to help cover for D&D's poor balance of magical power. If spells are balanced properly and monsters powerful enough, there shouldn't be any need for magic resistance. However, I'm not going to condemn it entirely until I see the actual mechanics.

We have already seen the mechanics for magic resistance in the bestiary (drow, vrock, etc): advantage on all saving throws made vs. magical effects.

I really like it.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 5:57AM, JayM wrote:

I'm surprised that nobody noticed the biggest revelation here, which is the return of magic resistance. That worries me, because it was traditionally more of a patch to help cover for D&D's poor balance of magical power. If spells are balanced properly and monsters powerful enough, there shouldn't be any need for magic resistance. However, I'm not going to condemn it entirely until I see the actual mechanics.

That's like saying if weapons are balanced properly, there shouldn't be any need for armor.

Specific defenses against magic should exist.  Not to balance spells across the board, but rather emphasize just how badass the thing that's got resistance is.


+1 to the Blood War.  Having evil groups and forces that have their own goals beyond just killing all of us puny mortals gives more depth and character to them, rather than just a nameless, faceless, flavorless antagonist.

I don't like the Blood War and am sad to see it baked in.  I was hoping it would be relegated as a potential cosmology for a Manual fo the Planes sourcebook and not the default.

BECMI, 1e, and 4e didn't have a Blood War so I don't think it a necessary inclusion.  I'd rather demons and devils be distinguished on their attitudes towards mortals and not towards each other. 

Nov 20, 2012 -- 7:53AM, wrecan wrote:

BECMI, 1e, and 4e didn't have a Blood War so I don't think it a necessary inclusion.  I'd rather demons and devils be distinguished on their attitudes towards mortals and not towards each other. 

Not a necessary inclusion, but I missed it when it was gone.

Also not everything is about us.  We're not the center of the multiverse.  Having non-Material Plane groups have their own identity, their own goals, their own methods, independent of their interaction with us, makes them closer to real characters, not just foils.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:00AM, Mand12 wrote:

We're not the center of the multiverse.

Yes we are.
 

That was slightly tongue-in-cheek.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:11AM, wrecan wrote:

Actually, we are... at least in the Greyhawk universe where the Blood War exists...

The centre of Greyspace (one crystal sphere), not the multiverse.

And technically, The Blood War also exists in all the 2nd Ed campaign settings.

Fine.  more to the point.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:00AM, Mand12 wrote:

Having non-Material Plane groups have their own identity, their own goals, their own methods, independent of their interaction with us, makes them closer to real characters, not just foils.

I prefer them to be foils.  And I have no problem giving anthropophilic outsiders their own identities, goals, and methods.  The mythological bases for demons and devils are all focused on their relationship with mortals, and we've been telling engaging yarns about them for tens of thousands of years. The Blood War is the aberration.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:16AM, Steely_Dan wrote:

And technically, The Blood War also exists in all the 2nd Ed campaign settings.

It does not exist in Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Council of Wyrms, Birthright, or Dark Sun.  It exists in Planescape, Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, and Spelljammer.  Sp it exists in only half of the Second Edition campaign settings.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:21AM, wrecan wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:16AM, Steely_Dan wrote:

And technically, The Blood War also exists in all the 2nd Ed campaign settings.

It does not exist in Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Council of Wyrms, Birthright, or Dark Sun.

Yes it does, it mentions Krynn (Tiamat is Takhisis) and Cerilia (Birthright) in the original Planescape boxed set, and Dark Sun is in a closed Crystal Sphere (but the Githyanki invaded Athas), Ravenloft can touch any world/crystal sphere on the Material Plane.

One man's aberration is another's innovation.

Foils just seem so...boring.  By the time you're really going extraplanar, and plumbing the depths of the Nine Hells, there has to be something bigger than your own little insignificant world.  Foils work fine for lower levels, when you have the occasional wizard summoning a demon that the adventurers have to deal with, or a devil to tempt them, but as the characters and plotlines grow in scope, the adversaries should as well.  "The evil demon who wants to kill the puny mortals" is rather uncompelling when we're dealing directly with deities, both as allies and enemies.

The Blood War gives demons and devils a purpose beyond just making our lives miserable.  Why are you objecting to more depth, when you already have what you want?

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:26AM, Steely_Dan wrote:

Yes it does, it mentions Krynn (Tiamat is Takhisis) and Cerilia (Birthright) in the original Planescape boxed set, and Dark Sun is in a closed Crystal Sphere (but the Githyanki invaded Athas), Ravenloft can touch any world/crystal sphere on the Material Plane.

In SPelljammer, Krynnspace is not Dragonlance.  it is the version of Dragonlance that is incorporated into Spelljammer.  I know it's a cute metaargument to incorporate everything into Spelljammer, but the Spelljammer Campaign Setting makes it clear that these are versions of the various campaign settings for that Spelljammer setting.  So let's cut the needless syllogisms, okay?

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:26AM, Steely_Dan wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:21AM, wrecan wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:16AM, Steely_Dan wrote:

And technically, The Blood War also exists in all the 2nd Ed campaign settings.

It does not exist in Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Council of Wyrms, Birthright, or Dark Sun.

Yes it does, it mentions Krynn (Tiamat is Takhisis) and Cerilia (Birthright) in the original Planescape boxed set, and Dark Sun is in a closed Crystal Sphere (but the Githyanki invaded Athas), Ravenloft can touch any world/crystal sphere on the Material Plane.

Isn't there a ravenloft domain lord that's a demon ? 

I also recal Van Richten’s Guide to Fiends/Demons 

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:26AM, Mand12 wrote:

One man's aberration is another's innovation.

yes, which is why my first post in this thread said "I don't like the Blood War and am sad to see it baked in."

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:26AM, Mand12 wrote:

Foils just seem so...boring.

"Foil" is just another word for NPC.  The demons and the devils of the Blood War are still foils.  They only come into the game when they interact with PCs.  

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:26AM, Mand12 wrote:

By the time you're really going extraplanar, and plumbing the depths of the Nine Hells, there has to be something bigger than your own little insignificant world.

Only if your world is little and insignificant.  

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:26AM, Mand12 wrote:

"The evil demon who wants to kill the puny mortals" is rather uncompelling when we're dealing directly with deities, both as allies and enemies.

I'm sorry, but is that what I said the motivationf or demons and devils should be?  I mean, you put it in quotes and you're responding to me, so I guess I must have said that somewhere.  because otherwise, that's a rank straw man you've created, and I'm pretty sure you'd be pretty apologetic if you were trying to throw straw men around.

The Blood War gives demons and devils a purpose beyond just making our lives miserable.  Why are you objecting to more depth, when you already have what you want?

I'm sorry, but what part of "I was hoping it would be relegated as a potential cosmology for a Manual fo the Planes sourcebook and not the default"made you think I didn't want you to have the Blood War available to you?!

I view the 4e cosmology the same way I view the changes to the FR (spellplague).     They were not needed at all and the changes only caused confusion.  

The great wheel is iconic to D&D and I'm happy it will return again.     It's a well needed correction.   

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:34AM, wrecan wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:26AM, Mand12 wrote:

"The evil demon who wants to kill the puny mortals" is rather uncompelling when we're dealing directly with deities, both as allies and enemies.

I'm sorry, but is that what I said the motivationf or demons and devils should be?

Did I say that you did?  You seem really touchy on this whole discussion, and seem to be making it about me, and thinking that I'm insulting your playstyle.  I'm not.  We just disagree.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:34AM, wrecan wrote:

"Foil" is just another word for NPC.

I disagree quite strongly with this, and my choice of the word "foil" was not made lightly.  A foil character is one that exists simply to oppose the protagonist.  Whereas an antagonist that isn't a foil isn't used so simply by the story.  Both are NPCs, and the word is not a synonym.  Some NPCs are foils, some aren't.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 7:53AM, wrecan wrote:

I don't like the Blood War and am sad to see it baked in.  I was hoping it would be relegated as a potential cosmology for a Manual fo the Planes sourcebook and not the default.

BECMI, 1e, and 4e didn't have a Blood War so I don't think it a necessary inclusion.  I'd rather demons and devils be distinguished on their attitudes towards mortals and not towards each other. 

I'm with you.  Yeah it can be ignored, and I tend to buy a monster manual for usable stats not story, I certainly appreciate usable information.  If I have to ignore two thirds of the information printed it just doesn't do me much good.

Also I wouldn't mind succubus and erinyies removed from the whole devil and demon equation entirely.  Make succubus their own type of fiend and erinyies being creatures who punish those who break contracts without all the fiendish bits.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:26AM, Steely_Dan wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:21AM, wrecan wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:16AM, Steely_Dan wrote:

And technically, The Blood War also exists in all the 2nd Ed campaign settings.

It does not exist in Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Council of Wyrms, Birthright, or Dark Sun.

Yes it does, it mentions Krynn (Tiamat is Takhisis) and Cerilia (Birthright) in the original Planescape boxed set, and Dark Sun is in a closed Crystal Sphere (but the Githyanki invaded Athas), Ravenloft can touch any world/crystal sphere on the Material Plane.

Note that it Dragonlance was forced in to it with none of the creators wanting it and it does not fit any of the stories created in the novels, considering the fact that the Dragonlance.  So yes it is written that it is way but nothing internally shows that.  I'm probably pretty certain we would find it the same for both Birthright, and Dark Sun.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:30AM, wrecan wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:26AM, Steely_Dan wrote:

Yes it does, it mentions Krynn (Tiamat is Takhisis) and Cerilia (Birthright) in the original Planescape boxed set, and Dark Sun is in a closed Crystal Sphere (but the Githyanki invaded Athas), Ravenloft can touch any world/crystal sphere on the Material Plane.

In SPelljammer, Krynnspace is not Dragonlance.  it is the version of Dragonlance that is incorporated into Spelljammer.  I know it's a cute metaargument to incorporate everything into Spelljammer, but the Spelljammer Campaign Setting makes it clear that these are versions of the various campaign settings for that Spelljammer setting.  So let's cut the needless syllogisms, okay?

Let's cut the rudeness, please, actually, you're coming off as more bitter, not necessary, that was the 2nd Ed D&D meta-setting as of 1994, deal.

Later on all sorts of fiascos happened. 

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:30AM, dmgorgon wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:26AM, Steely_Dan wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:21AM, wrecan wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:16AM, Steely_Dan wrote:

And technically, The Blood War also exists in all the 2nd Ed campaign settings.

It does not exist in Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Council of Wyrms, Birthright, or Dark Sun.

Yes it does, it mentions Krynn (Tiamat is Takhisis) and Cerilia (Birthright) in the original Planescape boxed set, and Dark Sun is in a closed Crystal Sphere (but the Githyanki invaded Athas), Ravenloft can touch any world/crystal sphere on the Material Plane.

Isn't there a ravenloft domain lord that's a demon ? 

I also recal Van Richten’s Guide to Fiends/Demons 

Probably, there are all sorts of Darklords (rakshasa, elder brain), one was ruled by an Athasian Sorceress Queen.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 9:13AM, Steely_Dan wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:30AM, dmgorgon wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:26AM, Steely_Dan wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:21AM, wrecan wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:16AM, Steely_Dan wrote:

And technically, The Blood War also exists in all the 2nd Ed campaign settings.

It does not exist in Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Council of Wyrms, Birthright, or Dark Sun.

Yes it does, it mentions Krynn (Tiamat is Takhisis) and Cerilia (Birthright) in the original Planescape boxed set, and Dark Sun is in a closed Crystal Sphere (but the Githyanki invaded Athas), Ravenloft can touch any world/crystal sphere on the Material Plane.

Isn't there a ravenloft domain lord that's a demon ? 

I also recal Van Richten’s Guide to Fiends/Demons 

Probably, there are all sorts of Darklords (rakshasa, elder brain), one was ruled by an Athasian Sorceress Queen.

Yep if it was evil it was thrown in the melting pot, probably not best for the setting as a whole, since it hurt it thematically, but 2nd ed was all about throwing things together.

As someone who's first forays into gaming were with Spelljammer, and some of his first fantasy books were about Dragonlance, I loved everything about the two being linked.  Krynnspace, Kender and Gnomes are forever jumbled together in my mind.  The thought of the Wars of the Lance taking place on little old Krynn, while foreign visitors from other sphere's occaisionally came down to trade for goods, always sparked my imagination.  I use to envision great fleets of Elves and Men battling the Evil races while the people below watched the Heaven's in fear and awe, unknowing of what took place above them, yet able to see the occaisional result of a ship destroyed or great magics unleased.  

Fond Memories, from just before High School for me. 

Nov 20, 2012 -- 9:21AM, Lugnut171 wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 9:13AM, Steely_Dan wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:30AM, dmgorgon wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:26AM, Steely_Dan wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:21AM, wrecan wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:16AM, Steely_Dan wrote:

And technically, The Blood War also exists in all the 2nd Ed campaign settings.

It does not exist in Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Council of Wyrms, Birthright, or Dark Sun.

Yes it does, it mentions Krynn (Tiamat is Takhisis) and Cerilia (Birthright) in the original Planescape boxed set, and Dark Sun is in a closed Crystal Sphere (but the Githyanki invaded Athas), Ravenloft can touch any world/crystal sphere on the Material Plane.

Isn't there a ravenloft domain lord that's a demon ? 

I also recal Van Richten’s Guide to Fiends/Demons 

Probably, there are all sorts of Darklords (rakshasa, elder brain), one was ruled by an Athasian Sorceress Queen.

Yep if it was evil it was thrown in the melting pot, probably not best for the setting as a whole, since it hurt it thematically, but 2nd ed was all about throwing things together.

Not al all. I think fiends /demons fit well with the Ravenloft setting.   You really should read that van richten's guide before making a comment like that.  

Nov 20, 2012 -- 9:29AM, LupusRegalis wrote:

As someone who's first forays into gaming were with Spelljammer, and some of his first fantasy books were about Dragonlance, I loved everything about the two being linked.  Krynnspace, Kender and Gnomes are forever jumbled together in my mind.  The thought of the Wars of the Lance taking place on little old Krynn, while foreign visitors from other sphere's occaisionally came down to trade for goods, always sparked my imagination.  I use to envision great fleets of Elves and Men battling the Evil races while the people below watched the Heaven's in fear and awe, unknowing of what took place above them, yet able to see the occaisional result of a ship destroyed or great magics unleased.  

Fond Memories, from just before High School for me. 

IMO, that's what D&D is all about

Nov 20, 2012 -- 9:29AM, LupusRegalis wrote:

As someone who's first forays into gaming were with Spelljammer, and some of his first fantasy books were about Dragonlance, I loved everything about the two being linked.  Krynnspace, Kender and Gnomes are forever jumbled together in my mind.  The thought of the Wars of the Lance taking place on little old Krynn, while foreign visitors from other sphere's occaisionally came down to trade for goods, always sparked my imagination.  I use to envision great fleets of Elves and Men battling the Evil races while the people below watched the Heaven's in fear and awe, unknowing of what took place above them, yet able to see the occaisional result of a ship destroyed or great magics unleased.  

Fond Memories, from just before High School for me. 

Yeah, and in that Spelljammer novel series the main protagonist, Teldin Moore, came from Krynnspace (Krynn/Ansalon).

Nov 20, 2012 -- 9:30AM, dmgorgon wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 9:21AM, Lugnut171 wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 9:13AM, Steely_Dan wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:30AM, dmgorgon wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:26AM, Steely_Dan wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:21AM, wrecan wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:16AM, Steely_Dan wrote:

And technically, The Blood War also exists in all the 2nd Ed campaign settings.

It does not exist in Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Council of Wyrms, Birthright, or Dark Sun.

Yes it does, it mentions Krynn (Tiamat is Takhisis) and Cerilia (Birthright) in the original Planescape boxed set, and Dark Sun is in a closed Crystal Sphere (but the Githyanki invaded Athas), Ravenloft can touch any world/crystal sphere on the Material Plane.

Isn't there a ravenloft domain lord that's a demon ? 

I also recal Van Richten’s Guide to Fiends/Demons 

Probably, there are all sorts of Darklords (rakshasa, elder brain), one was ruled by an Athasian Sorceress Queen.

Yep if it was evil it was thrown in the melting pot, probably not best for the setting as a whole, since it hurt it thematically, but 2nd ed was all about throwing things together.

Not al all. I think fiends /demons fit well with the Ravenloft setting.   You really should read that van richten's guide before making a comment like that.  

I don't mind the fiends, I meant more the elder brain type of thing, some fiends fit well in gothic horror.  Also to be fair Van Richten's guides are probably some of the best books to come out of 2nd ed, so I very much doubt that they screwed up the inclusion of fiends in them.

I agree, though I open it to all RPG's...well, except RIFTs.  j/k

WoD is still one of my favorites, L5R 4th Ed really brought back the setting, IMO.  Pathfinder has replaced 3.5ed for me, but I am still Hopefull for 5th.  D20 Modern is great, though it could use an update.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 9:34AM, Lugnut171 wrote:

I don't mind the fiends, I meant more the elder brain type of thing, some fiends fit well in gothic horror.  Also to be fair Van Richten's guides are probably some of the best books to come out of 2nd ed, so I very much doubt that they screwed up the inclusion of fiends in them.

Thoughts of Darkness was a great module.  Nothing wrong with a vampire illithid....yikes... 

Nov 20, 2012 -- 9:42AM, dmgorgon wrote:

Thoughts of Darkness was a great module.  Nothing wrong with a vampire illithid....yikes... 

That module rocks, drow fighters, vampiric illithids, broken ones, that dude with a scar, and Strahd's daughter! 

Nov 20, 2012 -- 2:34AM, Steely_Dan wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 2:24AM, dave2008 wrote:

@ steely_dan:  The recent dragon mag on the blood war has an ecology of the Succubus which explains why/how the 4e version of Malcanthet has an abyssal layer, if your interested.

Very interested in all fiendish lore, is it a bit like the Grazzt deal?

Do I have to pay for the article? 

Yes, I believe you need a DDI subscription to get Dragon.  It is being offered as a one time PDF with all the articles again.

Malcanthet and Lilith both want the title as Queen of the Succubi.  Lilith takes the political route through the Hells and Malcanthet led her devils into the Abyss as one of the first to volunteer in the Blood War to gain favor with Asmodeus. The more time she spent in the Abyss she was corrupted and eventually became a true demon lord. 

There is also an article titled "The Blood War" that brings Baernoloths and Yugoloths into the 4e fold as well.  I didn't think much of this article though.
  

Nov 20, 2012 -- 7:53AM, wrecan wrote:

I don't like the Blood War and am sad to see it baked in.  I was hoping it would be relegated as a potential cosmology for a Manual fo the Planes sourcebook and not the default.

BECMI, 1e, and 4e didn't have a Blood War so I don't think it a necessary inclusion.  I'd rather demons and devils be distinguished on their attitudes towards mortals and not towards each other. 

4e does have the Blood War, but you can ignore it pretty easily. In 4e the War was started by Asmodeus taking a piece of the shard of evil for his god killing ruby rod.  The general 4e approach is that the War is currently reduced to minor scrimishes, but it may be the calm before the storm.


I think this would be a good approach for next.  Yes there is/was a war, but you can ignore it easily if you want to.  It doesn't define the fiends.  

Nov 20, 2012 -- 10:10AM, dave2008 wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 2:34AM, Steely_Dan wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 2:24AM, dave2008 wrote:

@ steely_dan:  The recent dragon mag on the blood war has an ecology of the Succubus which explains why/how the 4e version of Malcanthet has an abyssal layer, if your interested.

Very interested in all fiendish lore, is it a bit like the Grazzt deal?

Do I have to pay for the article? 

Yes, I believe you need a DDI subscription to get Dragon.  It is being offered as a one time PDF with all the articles again.

Malcanthet and Lilith both want the title as Queen of the Succubi.  Lilith takes the political route through the Hells and Malcanthet led her devils into the Abyss as one of the first to volunteer in the Blood War to gain favor with Asmodeus. The more time she spent in the Abyss she was corrupted and eventually became a true demon lord. 

There is also an article titled "The Blood War" that brings Baernoloths and Yugoloths into the 4e fold as well.  I didn't think much of this article though.
  

Thanks, I would like to check out both articles, but I do not have a subscription; I would definitely use the originals anyway, but good to know, cool. 

I say bring back Anthraxus!

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:48AM, dmgorgon wrote:

The great wheel is iconic to D&D and I'm happy it will return again.     It's a well needed correction.   

I can't stand the great wheel. One of the best innovations in 4e (IMHO) was the world axis cosmos.  Thankfully, I am pretty sure the are supporting both concepts to some degree.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 12:03AM, Shemeska_the_Marauder wrote:

Overall not too bad. It's good to see the Blood War back in what appears to be its classic 2e/3e configuration. The mention of demodands/gehreleths warms my black, twisted Planescape-loving heart. :D

It would have been cool to see an equal exploration of the various types of yugoloths. Perhaps as a followup piece? Being that they started the Blood War and actively keep it going, they deserve it.

Succubi need to go back to being demons though. They've been classic demons for three editions - almost longer than I've been alive, and the 4e change of their status not only sticks out like a sore thumb, it causes massive continuity headaches. They should be demons by default, and handled as a campaign setting level change for a 5e Nentir Vale if presented as devils.

Absolutely.  This article fills me with alot of hope that they are actually fixing alot of the mistakes they made.  The more I hear about Next lore, the more I am on board.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:21AM, wrecan wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:16AM, Steely_Dan wrote:

And technically, The Blood War also exists in all the 2nd Ed campaign settings.

It does not exist in Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Council of Wyrms, Birthright, or Dark Sun.  It exists in Planescape, Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, and Spelljammer.  Sp it exists in only half of the Second Edition campaign settings.

It was also written in the Baatezu and Taanari entry of the AD&D 2nd edition monstrous manual.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:21AM, wrecan wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:16AM, Steely_Dan wrote:

And technically, The Blood War also exists in all the 2nd Ed campaign settings.

It does not exist in Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Council of Wyrms, Birthright, or Dark Sun.  It exists in Planescape, Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, and Spelljammer.  Sp it exists in only half of the Second Edition campaign settings.

None of those settings excluded the blood war that I can remember, and if demons/devils made it to those worlds, the blood war would have existed in them.  It was only that those specific settings were designed around not dealing with the outer planes, so they didn't go out of their way to include the war internally.

Nov 19, 2012 -- 10:34PM, Plaguescarred wrote:

Good ol' Blood War ! I think James was pretty much spot on on all of his descriptions.

PS I think Succubi should be Demons again. 

Yes, the Balors want their women back.   Besides, the Pit Fiends got rather bored of them anyway.   

Nov 20, 2012 -- 10:52AM, Maxperson wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:21AM, wrecan wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:16AM, Steely_Dan wrote:

And technically, The Blood War also exists in all the 2nd Ed campaign settings.

It does not exist in Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Council of Wyrms, Birthright, or Dark Sun.  It exists in Planescape, Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, and Spelljammer.  Sp it exists in only half of the Second Edition campaign settings.

None of those settings excluded the blood war that I can remember, and if demons/devils made it to those worlds, the blood war would have existed in them.  It was only that those specific settings were designed around not dealing with the outer planes, so they didn't go out of their way to include the war internally.

I agree, most campaign settings are located in the prime material plane.  In  Dragonlance everything outside of krynn is simply called the Grey, but that doesn't mean those other planes don't exist, or that Krynn is not par tof the prime material plane.  

There are even domains in ravenloft that originate from each campaign setting.   For example, Sithicus and Falkovnia are from Dragonlance.  The D&D campaign settings in 2e were all connected and fully explained within the D&D cosmology.     In fact, if I recal Ravenloft is located in the ethreal plane.    It's also interesting to note that tou might find a door in Sigil that takes you to the Darksun world.      

Nov 20, 2012 -- 11:46AM, dmgorgon wrote:

I agree, most campaign settings are located in the prime material plane.  In  Dragonlance everything outside of krynn is simply called the Grey, but that doesn't mean those other planes don't exist, or that Krynn is not par tof the prime material plane.  

There are even domains in ravenloft that originate from each campaign setting.   For example, Sithicus and Falkovnia are from Dragonlance.  The D&D campaign settings in 2e were all connected and fully explained within the D&D cosmology.     In fact, if I recal Ravenloft is located in the ethreal plane.    It's also interesting to note that tou might find a door in Sigil that takes you to the Darksun world.      

I remember the Grey (the ethereal) and the Black (plane of shadow ) being a Dark sun thing, but the rest I totally agree with; Planescape/Ravenloft/Spelljammer formed a sort of meta-setting triumvirate.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 11:53AM, Steely_Dan wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 11:46AM, dmgorgon wrote:

I agree, most campaign settings are located in the prime material plane.  In  Dragonlance everything outside of krynn is simply called the Grey, but that doesn't mean those other planes don't exist, or that Krynn is not par tof the prime material plane.  

There are even domains in ravenloft that originate from each campaign setting.   For example, Sithicus and Falkovnia are from Dragonlance.  The D&D campaign settings in 2e were all connected and fully explained within the D&D cosmology.     In fact, if I recal Ravenloft is located in the ethreal plane.    It's also interesting to note that tou might find a door in Sigil that takes you to the Darksun world.      

I remember the Grey (the ethereal) and the Black (plane of shadow ) being a Dark sun thing, but the rest I totally agree with; Planescape/Ravenloft/Spelljammer formed a sort of meta-setting triumvirate.

Yes, I've played in a few 2e campaigns that ended up with the party switching settings.    Actually, I have a 2e module with a portal at the end that links to a random location (some are campaign worlds)    

1. Great that they're moving back to the blood war

2. The balor needs some more magic. At the moment it reads as if too outclassed by the pit fiend

3. The succubi are back in the abyss. Yeah

Nov 20, 2012 -- 2:34AM, Steely_Dan wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 2:24AM, dave2008 wrote:

@ steely_dan:  The recent dragon mag on the blood war has an ecology of the Succubus which explains why/how the 4e version of Malcanthet has an abyssal layer, if your interested.

Very interested in all fiendish lore, is it a bit like the Grazzt deal?

Do I have to pay for the article?

It basically says that she invaded together with Grazzt and then got stuck on a different layer. It also says that despite being turned into devils both are still loyal to Asmodeus and crave his approval

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:30AM, wrecan wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:26AM, Steely_Dan wrote:

Yes it does, it mentions Krynn (Tiamat is Takhisis) and Cerilia (Birthright) in the original Planescape boxed set, and Dark Sun is in a closed Crystal Sphere (but the Githyanki invaded Athas), Ravenloft can touch any world/crystal sphere on the Material Plane.

In SPelljammer, Krynnspace is not Dragonlance.  it is the version of Dragonlance that is incorporated into Spelljammer.  I know it's a cute metaargument to incorporate everything into Spelljammer, but the Spelljammer Campaign Setting makes it clear that these are versions of the various campaign settings for that Spelljammer setting.  So let's cut the needless syllogisms, okay?

Actually travelers from FR, Greyhawk and Dragonlance have wandered the planes and visited the respective other worlds. Some meetings were friendly, some less so (it's been written that Elminster is the reason why Fistandandilus decided to no longer mess with Toril) 

Don´t forget the infernal civil wars, demons againts demons and devils againts devils.

* Are doble agents possible in the blood wars? For example succubus and enrinyas who betray their faction to serve the other one.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 12:05PM, Luis_Carlos wrote:

* Are doble agents possible in the blood wars? For example succubus and enrinyas whos serve the other faction. 

Sometimes certain factions are put on double-secret probation.

So a succubus and erinyes walk into a bar...

Nov 20, 2012 -- 12:21PM, Mithrus wrote:

So a succubus and erinyes walk into a bar...

Is this a joke, are these Polish fiends?

Nov 19, 2012 -- 11:34PM, Hipster_Cat wrote:

Give them more magic and not just combat magic. Creatures have a life and role outside combat.

Well said. As a DM, I don't want to deal with spell-like abilities during combat (nor are they likely to add to my player's fun). But outside of combat, anything is fair game.

Maybe just allow fiends the ability to perform 'rituals'? Possession, Corpse gate, teleportation, Endure Elements, etc.

Why are they cutting out the juiciest bits of 4E lore and replacing it with the junkier bits with older edition lore that made no sense setting wise and just led to unfun situations?

Just seems like a big step backwards to me. I'm not going to buy into a big step backwards, sorry. 

Nov 20, 2012 -- 12:42PM, LordofKhyber wrote:

Why are they cutting out the juiciest bits of 4E lore and replacing it with the junkier bits with older edition lore that made no sense setting wise and just led to unfun situations?

Just seems like a big step backwards to me. I'm not going to buy into a big step backwards, sorry. 

Unfun situations?  Junky lore?  That is a tough case to make in regards to the great wheel if that is what you mean by junky bits of older lore.  In fact TORMENT one of the best selling Video games is based off of the great wheel lore of older editions and the blood war.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 11:46AM, dmgorgon wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 10:52AM, Maxperson wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:21AM, wrecan wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:16AM, Steely_Dan wrote:

And technically, The Blood War also exists in all the 2nd Ed campaign settings.

It does not exist in Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Council of Wyrms, Birthright, or Dark Sun.  It exists in Planescape, Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, and Spelljammer.  Sp it exists in only half of the Second Edition campaign settings.

None of those settings excluded the blood war that I can remember, and if demons/devils made it to those worlds, the blood war would have existed in them.  It was only that those specific settings were designed around not dealing with the outer planes, so they didn't go out of their way to include the war internally.

I agree, most campaign settings are located in the prime material plane.  In  Dragonlance everything outside of krynn is simply called the Grey, but that doesn't mean those other planes don't exist, or that Krynn is not par tof the prime material plane.

In fact Krynn is.  Wrecan acknowledged that Spelljammer has the Blood War, and Spelljammer included Krynn via the Krynn Space supplement.  Therefore, Krynn has the Blood War through that association.     

There are even domains in ravenloft that originate from each campaign setting.   For example, Sithicus and Falkovnia are from Dragonlance.  The D&D campaign settings in 2e were all connected and fully explained within the D&D cosmology.     In fact, if I recal Ravenloft is located in the ethreal plane.    It's also interesting to note that tou might find a door in Sigil that takes you to the Darksun world.     

Yep.  They are all connected and the Blood War existed for them, even if not specifically mentioned in the setting itself.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 11:53AM, Steely_Dan wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 11:46AM, dmgorgon wrote:

I agree, most campaign settings are located in the prime material plane.  In  Dragonlance everything outside of krynn is simply called the Grey, but that doesn't mean those other planes don't exist, or that Krynn is not par tof the prime material plane.  

There are even domains in ravenloft that originate from each campaign setting.   For example, Sithicus and Falkovnia are from Dragonlance.  The D&D campaign settings in 2e were all connected and fully explained within the D&D cosmology.     In fact, if I recal Ravenloft is located in the ethreal plane.    It's also interesting to note that tou might find a door in Sigil that takes you to the Darksun world.      

I remember the Grey (the ethereal) and the Black (plane of shadow ) being a Dark sun thing, but the rest I totally agree with; Planescape/Ravenloft/Spelljammer formed a sort of meta-setting triumvirate.

Spelljammer included Krynn Space, Realms Space, and Grey Space, connecting Krynn, the Realms and Greyhawk together.  Krynn and the Realms connect to Ravenloft via Lord Domains.  Dark Sun I'm not sure about, but since it exists in the D&D multiverse, there have got to be connections to the outer planes somewhere. 

Nov 20, 2012 -- 12:21PM, Mithrus wrote:

So a succubus and erinyes walk into a bar...

- A bone devil walks into a bar and asks for a beer and a mop

- A Glabrezu walks into a bar. The bartender asks "why the long face"?

- A lemure walks into a bar, injuring itself.

- A Marilith walks into a bar.

- Demogorgon walks into a bar and orders a martinus. The bartender says "Don't you mean 'martini'?", to which Demogorgon roars "If I wanted two, I'd have asked for them!"

- Juiblex walks into a bra...

I dig the Blood War and am glad to see it return. It should be a part of the lore, but the ferocity of the Blood War should be left to DMs. Demons and devils should not play nicely together though, but it should be left to individual campaigns to determine if it's a Cold War, an active yet secondary war, or the primary goal of fiendish existence.

I'm not a big fan of the 4e attitude towards lore of change for change's sake, where too often it seemed like one person's pet peeve or fun idea was allowed to run roughshod over story matter than had been a part of the game longer than I've been alive.
Every idea or bit of lore was someone's favourite, and every monster is adored by someone. So change should never be done lightly.

That said, I quite liked most of the changes for 4e, the refocusing of demons on destruction and emphasis on the chaotic and elemental. There needs to be a sharp distinction for most demons and devils in M.O. There can be some exception (such as the Succubus being a non-smashy demon or the ice devil being a non-human devil) because they emphasize the default through contrast.

As for spells and odd abilities, a think a simple and small suite of abilities is good... for combat. Side abilities, such as a list of spells, are a great non-combat way of mechanically supporting the creature's place in the world. Monster in general need more of this. You don't need more than a reference and list -as it's something referenced away from the table where time is not a factor- and they might be limited in ritualistic use. For example, demons might have gate abilities usable as a ritual. The hezrou might be able to use darkness or teleport as rituals.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 1:04PM, Maxperson wrote:

Dark Sun I'm not sure about, but since it exists in the D&D multiverse, there have got to be connections to the outer planes somewhere. 

Factol Malin of the Mercykillers (based in Sigil) was from Athas. Likewise there was a small ghetto of Athasians in a district of Sigil's Hive (presumably portals to Athas too to explain their numbers, though in keeping with Dark Sun it was likely rare or periodic in function).

There was also an artifact in the possession of Dregoth the undead sorcerer king on Athas that allowed for access to the Outer Planes.

People, the Blood War exist in 4th Edition Cosmology, the World Axis. It is in the Manual of the Planes.

That said, what about that talk of “you can choose your Cosmology”? There are already references to the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, The Inner Planes, Nine Hells, Hades, Abyss…

Will fans receive support for the World Axis Cosmology? Will be easy to change Cosmology?

 

Nov 20, 2012 -- 4:15PM, cassi_brazuca wrote:

That said, what about that talk of “you can choose your Cosmology”?

You can.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 4:15PM, cassi_brazuca wrote:

There are already references to the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, The Inner Planes, Nine Hells, Hades, Abyss…

Yup, and you can ignore it.  I probably will, because I personally prefer the 4E cosmology.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 4:15PM, cassi_brazuca wrote:

Will fans receive support for the World Axis Cosmology? Will be easy to change Cosmology?

What do you mean by "support for the World Axis Cosmology?" 

As for the second question: yes.  It is very easy.  Cosmology is just fluff.  A demon is a demon, regardless of whether said demon is a CE fiend from the CE plane known as the Abyss embroiled in an ageless war against the hated devils and constantly collecting souls from fallen CE mortals or a CE corrupted elemental living engine of destruction living in the ever growing scar within the Elemental Chaos known as the Abyss.

I've never seen stuff like this as something to get worked up over.  If I don't like the presented fluff, I just change it.  If I think the Succubus should be a demon and the book says, "Devil"...I just change it.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 12:05PM, Mirtek wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 8:30AM, wrecan wrote:

..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true">In SPelljammer, Krynnspace is not Dragonlance.  it is the version of Dragonlance that is incorporated into Spelljammer.  I know it's a cute metaargument to incorporate everything into Spelljammer, but the Spelljammer Campaign Setting makes it clear that these are versions of the various campaign settings for that Spelljammer setting.  So let's cut the needless syllogisms, okay?

Actually travelers from FR, Greyhawk and Dragonlance have wandered the planes and visited the respective other worlds. Some meetings were friendly, some less so (it's been written that Elminster is the reason why Fistandandilus decided to no longer mess with Toril) 

I know that the semi regular articles about meetings between Elminister, Mordenkinin and Dalamar were some of my favourites and indicate that it was possible to travel between those worlds.

SIGH. I hope everyone who is happy about this is VERY happy about this. I'd hate to think my displeasure wasn't benefiting someone else...

 

Nov 20, 2012 -- 12:05PM, Luis_Carlos wrote:

Don´t forget the infernal civil wars, demons againts demons and devils againts devils.

* Are doble agents possible in the blood wars? For example succubus and enrinyas who betray their faction to serve the other one.

In the World Axis? Absolutely. The Abyss poached quite a few devils. In The Great Wheel? Probably impossible, given that each side has their alliegance baked into their make-up. I don't think that a being who is intriniscally lawful evil could betray its masters for a chaotic evil employer. 

Nov 20, 2012 -- 6:55PM, Alter_Boy wrote:

SIGH. I hope everyone who is happy about this is VERY happy about this. I'd hate to think my displeasure wasn't benefiting someone else...

 

Nov 20, 2012 -- 12:05PM, Luis_Carlos wrote:

Don´t forget the infernal civil wars, demons againts demons and devils againts devils.

* Are doble agents possible in the blood wars? For example succubus and enrinyas who betray their faction to serve the other one.

In the World Axis? Absolutely. The Abyss poached quite a few devils. In The Great Wheel? Probably impossible, given that each side has their alliegance baked into their make-up. I don't think that a being who is intriniscally lawful evil could betray its masters for a chaotic evil employer. 

There are many examples in the Great Wheel of outsiders changing their alignments.

The adventure "Deva's Spark" involved the "evolution" of a Bebilith.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 1:04PM, Maxperson wrote:

Spelljammer included Krynn Space, Realms Space, and Grey Space, connecting Krynn, the Realms and Greyhawk together.  Krynn and the Realms connect to Ravenloft via Lord Domains.  Dark Sun I'm not sure about, but since it exists in the D&D multiverse, there have got to be connections to the outer planes somewhere. 

Athas (Dark Sun), as I said, is mentioned as being in a Closed Crystal sphere, so it has no Spelljamming access, but definitely the Outer Planes, as mentioned, and the Githyanki raided it from the Astral Plane, and where's there's Astral...

There was also a Dragon article around 1992/1993 about crossing into 4h Ed Gamma World (the first system to implement several things from the modern d20 system: inverted THACO, ability score modifiers).

Nov 20, 2012 -- 10:03PM, Shasarak wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 6:55PM, Alter_Boy wrote:

SIGH. I hope everyone who is happy about this is VERY happy about this. I'd hate to think my displeasure wasn't benefiting someone else...

 

Nov 20, 2012 -- 12:05PM, Luis_Carlos wrote:

Don´t forget the infernal civil wars, demons againts demons and devils againts devils.

* Are doble agents possible in the blood wars? For example succubus and enrinyas who betray their faction to serve the other one.

In the World Axis? Absolutely. The Abyss poached quite a few devils. In The Great Wheel? Probably impossible, given that each side has their alliegance baked into their make-up. I don't think that a being who is intriniscally lawful evil could betray its masters for a chaotic evil employer. 

There are many examples in the Great Wheel of outsiders changing their alignments.

The adventure "Deva's Spark" involved the "evolution" of a Bebilith.

And there's Falls From Grace, a LN succubus cleric who is a party member in Planescape: Torment.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 10:56PM, Steely_Dan wrote:

Athas (Dark Sun), as I said, is mentioned as being in a Closed Crystal sphere, so it has no Spelljamming access, but definitely the Outer Planes, as mentioned, and the Githyanki raided it from the Astral Plane, and where's there's Astral...

There was also a Dragon article around 1992/1993 about crossing into 4h Ed Gamma World (the first system to implement several things from the modern d20 system: inverted THACO, ability score modifiers).

In Thri Kreen of Athas it implied that the Kreen (Xik chil) managed to crash their star farign vessel on Athas. If only one ever made it through, and it destroyed them to do so, I'd call that sphere closed.

So, Athas has the Gray wrapped around it's Prime. The Gray sucks, it's like the Mesopotamian world of the dead. However, there are elemental vortices that still connect Athas to the Inner Planes, and high level Elemental Priests can enter and leave these planes... giving access to other planes through the Ethreal and border ethreal. The Outer Planes are not connected (any more?) which is why Divine powers fail on Athas, yet the Elements can invest Clerics. To note, Athasian Druids draw power from Sipirits of the Land, not any extra-planar source.
 
The Gith(yanki) have a story similar to the Kreen in that they pierced it once and then it shut behind them, leaving them to degenrate. Later, during one adventure, it gets pierced again by Githyanki. Given how infrequent that is, and the Gith's skill in navigating, tht means it must be nearly (but not completely) impossible to acces from the Astral. 
Then there is the Gate in New Guistenal... and the Caller in the Darkness... Yeah, potent artifact that breaks the rules, but the difficulty to get it from the entity that has it (and is on par with The Dragon for baddest mamjama on Athas) is so far from worth it... 

Cannon books can say a thing, but acces to Arthas/Dark Sun can be possible when DM decides allowing it.

* A LE devil could be loyal to his dark lord but he could help a demon faction betraying other devil rival faction.  (I suggest a module about d20 modern allegiance to be added to aligment system).

I think cannon background should say sometimes succubus/incubbus and erinyas could be doble agents, or triple agents (=false doble agent, they would fake being a traitor when really is giving false information). 

The DM can also say that Athas is a lush world with metal everywhere, ruled by benevolent, Lawful Good Demons, and Chaotic Good Devils where Erinyes and Succubi quit working for their respective sides and get together to make beer commercials for a local micro-brew run by a vegetarian Kreen.

I am not sure what the answers to question 1 have to do with lore. Powers are not lore.

Having said that I very much dislike the lore being presented for demons and devils. I was a much bigger fan of the way they were presented in the World Axis setting, and would like to see that continued in some generic way that allows for use of the World Axis, and the Great Wheel, etc. I dislike intensely the idea that demons are created by the souls of mortal. Leave souls to the devils exclusively. Demons should be created by a semi-sentient Abyss. Please keep Angels and Archons as distinct types of creatures. If the Archons of pre-4e must make a return let them do so as a different class of creature.

Nov 21, 2012 -- 5:15AM, Kalex_the_Omen wrote:

I am not sure what the answers to question 1 have to do with lore. Powers are not lore.

Having said that I very much dislike the lore being presented for demons and devils. I was a much bigger fan of the way they were presented in the World Axis setting, and would like to see that continued in some generic way that allows for use of the World Axis, and the Great Wheel, etc. I dislike intensely the idea that demons are created by the souls of mortal. Leave souls to the devils exclusively. Demons should be created by a semi-sentient Abyss. Please keep Angels and Archons as distinct types of creatures. If the Archons of pre-4e must make a return let them do so as a different class of creature.

Given that we'll be returning to the Great Wheel, they almost certainly will be; angels are the direct servitors of (Good) deities, while Archons are the exemplars of Lawful Good, the same way that Devils are the exemplars of Lawful Evil, Yugoloths are the exemplars of Neutral Evil, and Demons are the exemplars of Chaotic Evil. Continuing along the Wheel, Guardinals are Neutral Good, Eladrin are Chaotic Good, Slaad are Chaotic Neutral, and Modrons/Formians are Lawful Neutral.

Nov 21, 2012 -- 6:01AM, faer4 wrote:

Given that we'll be returning to the Great Wheel, they almost certainly will be; angels are the direct servitors of (Good) deities, while Archons are the exemplars of Lawful Good, the same way that Devils are the exemplars of Lawful Evil, Yugoloths are the exemplars of Neutral Evil, and Demons are the exemplars of Chaotic Evil. Continuing along the Wheel, Guardinals are Neutral Good, Eladrin are Chaotic Good, Slaad are Chaotic Neutral, and Modrons/Formians are Lawful Neutral.

You've missed my point.  Perhaps I was not clear.  4e Archons are elemental servitors and the troops of Chaos in the Dawn War.  I would prefer they keep the name Archons and make the old pre-4e Archons something else.  Maybe "Exemplars" is a good name for them since they represent LG.  So you would have Hound Exemplars, Lantern Exemplars and so forth.

Nov 21, 2012 -- 6:12AM, Kalex_the_Omen wrote:

Nov 21, 2012 -- 6:01AM, faer4 wrote:

Given that we'll be returning to the Great Wheel, they almost certainly will be; angels are the direct servitors of (Good) deities, while Archons are the exemplars of Lawful Good, the same way that Devils are the exemplars of Lawful Evil, Yugoloths are the exemplars of Neutral Evil, and Demons are the exemplars of Chaotic Evil. Continuing along the Wheel, Guardinals are Neutral Good, Eladrin are Chaotic Good, Slaad are Chaotic Neutral, and Modrons/Formians are Lawful Neutral.

You've missed my point.  Perhaps I was not clear.  4e Archons are elemental servitors and the troops of Chaos in the Dawn War.  I would prefer they keep the name Archons and make the old pre-4e Archons something else.  Maybe "Exemplars" is a good name for them since they represent LG.  So you would have Hound Exemplars, Lantern Exemplars and so forth.

Yeah, I know, I just misinterpreted what you were saying. Personally, I think 4e Archons should be renamed, while the LG Archons should keep it. It didn't really fit, anyway; "archon" is a Greek word that means "ruler" or "lord", and the near-mindless elemental soldiers won't be doing much ruling, while it speaks to me of the spiritual enlightenment the LG Archons possess as a result of their nature.

Personally, I like 4e's approach of differentiating demons and devils; with one being from the Elemental Chaos, made of the elements and one being an immortal denizen of the Astral Sea. 

Demons associated with elements works for me, with each one having appropriate resistance. Either that or demons should be associated with strong emotions, like a demon of anger, sorrow, gluttony, etc... I always thought demons as the embodiment of an extreme and primarily mindless or single purpose. 

I don't like demons that are organized and what not, I want the Abyss to be a constant struggle where demons are constantly tearing each other apart or some are so unstable that they only exist momentarily. A place where a vrock or marilith can come in multiple sizes. Where only the strongest demons can exert reality altering control over their realm, being able to shape their layer and goading demons around them to align with their purpose but not really control the demons. Demons should be nihilistic, craving the experience of causing all of existence to experience their associated emotion or element.

Devils work as is, tempters and schemers. Distinctly different than demons, driven by their thirst for power and souls.

As for the Blood War... meh. I could take it or leave it and I doubt it will have much of a bearing removing it from the generic setting.

Nov 21, 2012 -- 6:17AM, faer4 wrote:

Personally, I think 4e Archons should be renamed, while the LG Archons should keep it.

I think they should both be renamed.  4e "archons" should go back to being "elementals:.

The nine alignment servitors should be:
GOOD: All good servitors are called Celestials
LG: Angels
NG: Guardinals
CG: Ghaele (I would like to preserve eladrin as a future playable fey race)

NEUTRAL: All neutral servitors are called Spirits
LN: Inevitables
TN: Rilmani*
CN: Slaad

EVIL: All evil servitors are called Fiends
LE: Devil
NE: Yugoloth
CE: Demon 

*I really hate these creatures, actually.  They have absolutely no personality. I'd like to replace them with the Primal Spirits of 4e.

I really don't like what 4e did with elementals, demons, and the elemental chaos in general.

Demons are not elementals.

Nov 21, 2012 -- 6:41AM, wrecan wrote:

TN: Rilmani*

*I really hate these creatures, actually.  They have absolutely no personality. I'd like to replace them with the Primal Spirits of 4e.

They're the Interplanar Illuminati, the Men In Black, the Man Behind The Man. To a degree, their lack of individual personality is what makes them compelling.

Nov 21, 2012 -- 6:17AM, faer4 wrote:

Yeah, I know, I just misinterpreted what you were saying. Personally, I think 4e Archons should be renamed, while the LG Archons should keep it. It didn't really fit, anyway; "archon" is a Greek word that means "ruler" or "lord", and the near-mindless elemental soldiers won't be doing much ruling, while it speaks to me of the spiritual enlightenment the LG Archons possess as a result of their nature.

I'd be happy if neither retained it.  Using your logic Archon doesn't fit the servants of LG gods either.  I think Exemplars is great for the pre-4e creatures, but what would fit for the elementals?

Nov 21, 2012 -- 6:41AM, wrecan wrote:

Nov 21, 2012 -- 6:17AM, faer4 wrote:

Personally, I think 4e Archons should be renamed, while the LG Archons should keep it.

I think they should both be renamed.  4e "archons" should go back to being "elementals:.

The nine alignment servitors should be:
GOOD: All good servitors are called Celestials
LG: Angels
NG: Guardinals
CG: Ghaele (I would like to preserve eladrin as a future playable fey race)

NEUTRAL: All neutral servitors are called Spirits
LN: Inevitables
TN: Rilmani*
CN: Slaad

EVIL: All evil servitors are called Fiends
LE: Devil
NE: Yugoloth
CE: Demon 

*I really hate these creatures, actually.  They have absolutely no personality. I'd like to replace them with the Primal Spirits of 4e.

While I agree that both types of Archons should be renamed, I don't think angels should be associated with LG.  I liked angels being generic servants of all astral powers, and them having their opposite in the elemental archons.  I'd just like to see the 3e archons (arguably no relation at all to angels) renamed, and the 4e archons retained as different than just dumb elementals.

Here is what I would like to see...

GOOD: All good servitors are called Celestials
LG: Exemplars
NG: Guardinals
CG: Ghaele (I would like to preserve eladrin as a future playable fey race)

NEUTRAL: All neutral servitors are called Spirits
LN: Inevitables
TN: Rilmani
CN: Slaad

EVIL: All evil servitors are called Fiends
LE: Devil
NE: Yugoloth
CE: Demon  

ELEMENTALS: (differentiated by intelligence)
LOW: Elementals
MEDIUM: ???  (4e "Archons")
HIGH: Genie (Djinn, Dao, Efteet, etc.)
GENIUS: Elemental Lords

Nov 21, 2012 -- 6:53AM, Kalex_the_Omen wrote:

Nov 21, 2012 -- 6:17AM, faer4 wrote:

Yeah, I know, I just misinterpreted what you were saying. Personally, I think 4e Archons should be renamed, while the LG Archons should keep it. It didn't really fit, anyway; "archon" is a Greek word that means "ruler" or "lord", and the near-mindless elemental soldiers won't be doing much ruling, while it speaks to me of the spiritual enlightenment the LG Archons possess as a result of their nature.

I'd be happy if neither retained it.  Using your logic Archon doesn't fit the servants of LG gods either.  I think Exemplars is great for the pre-4e creatures, but what would fit for the elementals?

"Elemental Warrior" would fit the elementals, and LG Archons are no more the servants of LG gods than Demons are the servants of CE gods. They represent their Alignment; sometimes they serve the gods that share that alignment, but their true nature is related to the plane from which they originate.

And "archon" does fit them, in my opinion; like I said, they embody the enlightenment that LG represents. They are the rule of law, and the rule of self by personal codes of ethics, all contributing to the greater good. Each of them is a ruler, for they have gained dominion over their own souls.

I suposse 3rd eladrins (CG outsiders) and 4thd Ed (elf subrace) are linked. eladrins outsiders would be the ancestros of elves who evolved from petitiones to higher ranks. 

I imagine guardinals, the furry outsiders, linked to primal source powers, and the could be summoned by good druids or shamans.

* I hate rimalnis, it isn´t the monster stats or the powers, it their f***ing background about neutrality. I hate that stupy manichism about cosmic balance evilness-godness. There isn´t harmony where injustice rules, evilness is the cosmic disharmony. Do my family must die by a zombie apocalypsis because it is demanded by the "cosmic balance" demand? Let´s imagine a cleric has found a cure to lycantropy, but he is killed by rimalni to "restore the balance"? A diplomat is about to get the end of dwarf-elf war, but he is killed by rimalnis because "the peace could break the cosmic equilibrium"..

* Planescape Petitioner is a good background idea but the 3rd Ed template wasn´t good (the challenge rating only was right for certain creatures weren´t too powerful or hadn´t got special attacks). Some manes and lemures could evolve to petitioners. If some page from future DM gives advice about creating templates, the petitioner could be used like example about avoiding mistakes to get the right balance of power.  
 
Lemures and manes could have got some slow regeneration power (after rest some days) to be used like food in "infernal farms" (for example if they are near some touchstone, like from "Planar handbook").  

Do you imagine a crazy splatterpunk warmachine using (magically altered) lemures or manes like mechanic pieces? 

Nov 21, 2012 -- 9:24AM, Luis_Carlos wrote:

* I hate rimalnis, it isn´t the monster stats or the powers, it their f***ing background about neutrality. I hate that stupy manichism about cosmic balance evilness-godness. There isn´t harmony where injustice rules, evilness is the cosmic disharmony. Do my family must die by a zombie apocalypsis because it is demanded by the "cosmic balance" demand? Let´s imagine a cleric has found a cure to lycantropy, but he is killed by rimalni to "restore the balance"? A diplomat is about to get the end of dwarf-elf war, but he is killed by rimalnis because "the peace could break the cosmic equilibrium"..

Ha, thats pretty awesome actually.  The perfect meddlers, nice work.

Rilmani rock, they featured in my most recent campaign for a bit (especially one badass cuprilach).

Archons are exemplars of LG, nothing to do with angels, and not sure why people think some elemental soldiers should rightfully steal their name (of over 10 years).

And Eladrins, please, they are CG exemplars, not a variant elf, I guess because the name sounds similar to Eldar (Middle-Earth and Warhammer), they slapped the name on the new "magic"-elf, talk about lazy. 

Thank god they didn't use (steal) the name Guardinal for some type of variant dwarf or some rubbish.

I have no problem with all sorts of cosmologies (planar takes), but the blatant stealing and changing of Heinsoo & Co was just too much of a butchery.

And modrons, please, not formians, that was a lame 3rd Ed favouritism deal due to a designer or two.

Bumped, because of the interesting poll results for what a Succubus should be

32% Demon

31% Devil

29% Either/both

www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4...

Hopefully, this will not be the last of this subject...  
        

Nov 21, 2012 -- 3:03PM, Steely_Dan wrote:

And modrons, please, not formians, that was a lame 3rd Ed favouritism deal due to a designer or two.

Personally, I wouldn't mind a larger focus being given to a modron/formian war over the proper definition of LN, akin to how the Fiends are fighting the Blood War over the best definition of Evil, and how the Tanarri overthrew the Obrinths. Basically, byzantine rules and regulations vs Borglike "all will submit to our rule".