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7 months ago  ::  Nov 20, 2012 - 9:50AM #11
Knight90
Date Joined: May 25, 2012
Posts: 216
Assuming that the standard rules for multiclassing will exist in 3.5 (and that each "iconic" class will be its own class and not a multiclass combination), there are a couple issues that I can see.

The first problem arises from "dipping", as was mentionned earlier in the thread, a character who takes a level of Rogue gives up very little while gaining quite a lot. Likewise, a Wizard who takes a level of Fighter gains a ton of survivability (since as I last checked, armor no longer impedes casting spells, you just can't wear armor you're not proficient in. Maybe I'm wrong).

Dipping gets even more complicated when you factor in Maneuvers. As they currently exist, there's not much stopping a Fighter from taking a level of Rogue for the Skill Mastery ability, taking a level of Monk for the wall-running Manuever, and having as good or better Expertise Dice than a pure Fighter. In addition, despite the fact that Mearls has stated that Maneuvers will represent a large distinction between classes, since they're all available at 1st level, any character that uses Expertise Dice can dip a level and immediately gain a powerful signature move of another class. When you factor in how some of these maneuvers are based around your total Expertise Dice pool, things get even crazier. Its equivalent to a Wizard taking a level of Cleric and immediately gaining access to 3rd or 4th level Cleric spells, because they can already cast 4th level spells as a Wizard.

The second problem is when a character multiclasses between two casting classes. Since spells no longer scale based on caster level, multiclass casters also fall behind significantly in terms of power. In addition, by limiting the number of spells gained per spell level, a Wizard 20 will have the same number of spells as a Wizard 10 / Cleric 10, only the multiclass character won't have access to spells higher than 5th level, and thus will be vastly inferior in terms of ability. Compare this to a Mystic Theurge-style build from 3.5, where the character was 3+ caster levels lower and lagged behind 1-2 spell levels constantly, but made up for it by having easily twice as many spell slots per day.

The third problem is when a character multiclasses between a caster and an expertise-dice class. Spells and expertise dice do NOT synergize at ALL, and the character will find themself with a deceptively narrow set of options. If they make a weapon attack, they can't cast a spell that round. If they cast a spell, they can't use their expertise dice for added damage that round. I could see a Fighter / Cleric build that revolved around using cure spells and Parry in order to be basically unkillable, but the character should still lag behind the rest of the group in ability.

Here's the thing: I LOVE the idea of multiclass characters. I like characters that break away from the traditional fantasy pidgeonholing that classes enforce, and who find different and unique roles in the party. You tend to get the most interesting (and fun) characters from that sort of experimentation. The problem is, the current class system just isn't built to handle that sort of thing. However, there is a way to fix this.

1) Don't let characters immediately gain class features and proficiencies. If a Wizard takes a level of Fighter, they might gain Light armor use or martial wepaon use, but they won't gain all armor, all weapons, and all shields for free. That's several feats' worth of investment right there. Likewise, grant maybe one Rogue skill if you take a level of Rogue.

2) Allow characters who multiclass into spellcasting the ability to get higher level spell slots from the get-go. Add up their levels from spellcasting classes (Cleric, Sorcerer, Wizard) and add 1/2 their total levels from non-casting classes (Fighter, Rogue, Monk), and look at what a character of that level would gain in terms of spells at that level. Then give them a spell slot one level lower. For example, a Wizard 5 who took a level of Cleric has an effective level of 5 for this purpose, so they'd get a level 2 Cleric spell slot. For classes like the Sorcerer, instead give them a spell knwon of a level one lower, and the same number of Spell Points as they would have gained at that level.

3) Add together all Martial classes' levels to determine their total Expertise Dice. It's just easier than having to track the dice you recieve from all of those classes. At the same time:

4) When using Maneuvers from a class, you're limited to using one die per 4 levels you have in that class, rounded up. So, if you're a Fighter 4/Monk 1, you can't spend more than 1 Experstise die on Flurry of Blows or Slow Fall, and you can't spend more than one die on Parry.

That's my suggestion of how to fix multiclassing.
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7 months ago  ::  Nov 20, 2012 - 10:45AM #12
SatLeBaron
Date Joined: Nov 11, 2011
Posts: 54
The player in my game that wanted to make a multiclass made up this document :

www.dropbox.com/sh/a5z5zuej46n9eo3/hgGLL...



Please tell us what do you think of his first idea, but I think it is mostly like most of you thought of multiclassing without the "dipping".
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7 months ago  ::  Nov 20, 2012 - 11:02AM #13
Knight90
Date Joined: May 25, 2012
Posts: 216
It's an interesting method, I think. There are some things I'm not clear on (for example, if you're a level 6 Fighter and you take a level of Cleric, what level spell do you gain?) but it looks pretty solid. Very much like the Hybrid class mechanic from 4E, and I'm sure that will please a lot of fans. In fact, the Hybrid mechanic might be just what 5E needs to draw 4E fans back into the fold... that gives me an idea. But for another time.

All in all, it looks pretty solid. Lose your Feats in order to "buy" the features of classes you multiclass into (I hope I'm understanding it correctly). I personally think that Feats should equal Class Features anyway, and with signature maneuvers becoming Feats anyone with Expertise Dice can take, it seems to be moving in that direction.

I can tell your player puts a lot of effort into that document. You should totally get your group to play characters built using the Multiclass combinations and see how they perform!
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7 months ago  ::  Nov 20, 2012 - 1:23PM #14
Youngy
Date Joined: Aug 10, 2010
Posts: 257

Nov 20, 2012 -- 9:50AM, Knight90 wrote:

The first problem arises from "dipping", as was mentionned earlier in the thread, a character who takes a level of Rogue gives up very little while gaining quite a lot. Likewise, a Wizard who takes a level of Fighter gains a ton of survivability (since as I last checked, armor no longer impedes casting spells, you just can't wear armor you're not proficient in. Maybe I'm wrong).




Wizards cannot cast spells in armor. It is in their entry. One of our players was not very happy about this. He thought there should at least be a feat to allow this kind of thing (even if it was only light armour)

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7 months ago  ::  Nov 20, 2012 - 2:08PM #15
SatLeBaron
Date Joined: Nov 11, 2011
Posts: 54

Nov 20, 2012 -- 11:02AM, Knight90 wrote:

It's an interesting method, I think. There are some things I'm not clear on (for example, if you're a level 6 Fighter and you take a level of Cleric, what level spell do you gain?) but it looks pretty solid. Very much like the Hybrid class mechanic from 4E, and I'm sure that will please a lot of fans. In fact, the Hybrid mechanic might be just what 5E needs to draw 4E fans back into the fold... that gives me an idea. But for another time.

All in all, it looks pretty solid. Lose your Feats in order to "buy" the features of classes you multiclass into (I hope I'm understanding it correctly). I personally think that Feats should equal Class Features anyway, and with signature maneuvers becoming Feats anyone with Expertise Dice can take, it seems to be moving in that direction.

I can tell your player puts a lot of effort into that document. You should totally get your group to play characters built using the Multiclass combinations and see how they perform!





In fact we started to try it out yesterday. He's a Dex built Trickster Cleric (lvl 1) - Fighter (lvl 1) and took the precise shot maneuver.

Should be interesting.

Btw, if any of you try out this document, you should say how it went here for different multiclassing! :D 

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