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7 months ago ::
Dec 02, 2012 - 3:25PM
#1461
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Date Joined:
Apr 14, 2004
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...You can ignore the presence of magic
that you are already aware of. If the magic you
sense belongs to a school of magic, you learn
what that school is....
rope trick is a 2nd level transmutation spell. so (ignoring the broken part of detect magic) if you detected rope trick you would know there is transmutation magic in the area. if you got a guy flying with fly in your cone you will be able to detect that it is conjuration. so that part of detect magic still works.
Yes, if you fix detect magic so that it'll actually detect it, you'd learn that a transformation spell is in the area. However, you can't see the strength of the magic like the old 3E version could. So All you'd have to do is cast three Prestidigitations (color/clean/soil) to cover three areas of ceiling with transmutation magic then add in the rope trick entrance itself for 4 possibles. So... Does the caster have 4 dispel magic handy?
Also, an even easier option is to cast this at max height, putting it out of detect magic's range unless the caster flies and/or is 20' tall.
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7 months ago ::
Dec 02, 2012 - 3:53PM
#1462
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however reviewing detect magic I'm not sure who's right. I think I am leaning in the you are right direction. I just don't want to admit it because that is total garbage. The point of detect magic is so you can sense the magic in an area including invisible stuff. That was actually one of the best things you could use it for. It didn't make it not invisible nor did it make it any easier to find it just let you know something near you was invisible. I mean if your interpretation is correct that means detect magic doesn't pierce disguise self (a 0 level spell) or any illusion spell used to conceal things. Heck If I use minor illusion to create a wall for people to hide behind technically detect magic won't be able to detect it because it is being used to conceal creatures.
I am not sure which version of Detect Magic you are going off, but a Disguise Self spell would definitely register as a faint aura of Illusion.
Which is why the ability Disguise is still useful.
Pro DnD Member of the Axis of Awesome Fighters: Using socks to kill monsters since 2012 DnD Next: Now with more then 4 minutes of Roleplay per gaming hour Spoiler:
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"If you can't make an interesting human fighter, then you aren't ready to play anything else yet" Edymnion
"The idea of resting up between encounters to fill-up on hit points and spells struck my meta-gaming nine-year-old as a distinct possibility. "Are you mad?" says my seven-year-old "This place is full of monsters!" "jamesgrahamuk
All characters have a story. Spoiler:
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Sometimes that story is short and sometimes it is long. They can be tragic, comic or absurd. Some teach. Some are just to fill the empty spaces in our lives. Rarely it is a transcendent fugue only half remembered but wondered at. And frequently: "it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." -William Shakespeare
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7 months ago ::
Dec 02, 2012 - 4:17PM
#1463
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...You can ignore the presence of magic
that you are already aware of. If the magic you
sense belongs to a school of magic, you learn
what that school is....
rope trick is a 2nd level transmutation spell. so (ignoring the broken part of detect magic) if you detected rope trick you would know there is transmutation magic in the area. if you got a guy flying with fly in your cone you will be able to detect that it is conjuration. so that part of detect magic still works.
Yes, if you fix detect magic so that it'll actually detect it, you'd learn that a transformation spell is in the area. However, you can't see the strength of the magic like the old 3E version could. So All you'd have to do is cast three Prestidigitations (color/clean/soil) to cover three areas of ceiling with transmutation magic then add in the rope trick entrance itself for 4 possibles. So... Does the caster have 4 dispel magic handy?
Also, an even easier option is to cast this at max height, putting it out of detect magic's range unless the caster flies and/or is 20' tall.
Dont need 4 dispels because the auras from a 0 level spell are only going to last for 1d6 rounds. If the enemy is that close on your heels then they probably saw you pulling up your rope.
Pro DnD Member of the Axis of Awesome Fighters: Using socks to kill monsters since 2012 DnD Next: Now with more then 4 minutes of Roleplay per gaming hour Spoiler:
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"If you can't make an interesting human fighter, then you aren't ready to play anything else yet" Edymnion
"The idea of resting up between encounters to fill-up on hit points and spells struck my meta-gaming nine-year-old as a distinct possibility. "Are you mad?" says my seven-year-old "This place is full of monsters!" "jamesgrahamuk
All characters have a story. Spoiler:
Show
Sometimes that story is short and sometimes it is long. They can be tragic, comic or absurd. Some teach. Some are just to fill the empty spaces in our lives. Rarely it is a transcendent fugue only half remembered but wondered at. And frequently: "it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." -William Shakespeare
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7 months ago ::
Dec 02, 2012 - 4:43PM
#1464
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Date Joined:
Feb 12, 2009
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...You can ignore the presence of magic
that you are already aware of. If the magic you
sense belongs to a school of magic, you learn
what that school is....
rope trick is a 2nd level transmutation spell. so (ignoring the broken part of detect magic) if you detected rope trick you would know there is transmutation magic in the area. if you got a guy flying with fly in your cone you will be able to detect that it is conjuration. so that part of detect magic still works.
Yes, if you fix detect magic so that it'll actually detect it, you'd learn that a transformation spell is in the area. However, you can't see the strength of the magic like the old 3E version could. So All you'd have to do is cast three Prestidigitations (color/clean/soil) to cover three areas of ceiling with transmutation magic then add in the rope trick entrance itself for 4 possibles. So... Does the caster have 4 dispel magic handy?
Also, an even easier option is to cast this at max height, putting it out of detect magic's range unless the caster flies and/or is 20' tall.
Technically no since the current detect magic only works on things currently being affected by magic. the prestedigitation is instant and therefore is not detected by detect magic unless it is casted in the area during the durration of detect magic. something that had been hit with presto would'nt even ping on the detect magic. kinda like the air hit by a fireball wouldn't ping after the firball had gone off, only for the instant the fireball is going off.
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7 months ago ::
Dec 02, 2012 - 4:46PM
#1465
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Date Joined:
Feb 12, 2009
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...You can ignore the presence of magic
that you are already aware of. If the magic you
sense belongs to a school of magic, you learn
what that school is....
rope trick is a 2nd level transmutation spell. so (ignoring the broken part of detect magic) if you detected rope trick you would know there is transmutation magic in the area. if you got a guy flying with fly in your cone you will be able to detect that it is conjuration. so that part of detect magic still works.
Yes, if you fix detect magic so that it'll actually detect it, you'd learn that a transformation spell is in the area. However, you can't see the strength of the magic like the old 3E version could. So All you'd have to do is cast three Prestidigitations (color/clean/soil) to cover three areas of ceiling with transmutation magic then add in the rope trick entrance itself for 4 possibles. So... Does the caster have 4 dispel magic handy?
Also, an even easier option is to cast this at max height, putting it out of detect magic's range unless the caster flies and/or is 20' tall.
Dont need 4 dispels because the auras from a 0 level spell are only going to last for 1d6 rounds. If the enemy is that close on your heels then they probably saw you pulling up your rope.
ummm...what part of the rules is that covered in i think i missed it.
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7 months ago ::
Dec 02, 2012 - 4:53PM
#1466
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ummm...what part of the rules is that covered in i think i missed it.
I see that we may be discussing different Detect Magic's. 
Pro DnD Member of the Axis of Awesome Fighters: Using socks to kill monsters since 2012 DnD Next: Now with more then 4 minutes of Roleplay per gaming hour Spoiler:
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"If you can't make an interesting human fighter, then you aren't ready to play anything else yet" Edymnion
"The idea of resting up between encounters to fill-up on hit points and spells struck my meta-gaming nine-year-old as a distinct possibility. "Are you mad?" says my seven-year-old "This place is full of monsters!" "jamesgrahamuk
All characters have a story. Spoiler:
Show
Sometimes that story is short and sometimes it is long. They can be tragic, comic or absurd. Some teach. Some are just to fill the empty spaces in our lives. Rarely it is a transcendent fugue only half remembered but wondered at. And frequently: "it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." -William Shakespeare
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7 months ago ::
Dec 02, 2012 - 4:53PM
#1467
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That would only be an issue if the party was able to totally guarantee that they were able to hide where they cast their rope trick spell. I would say that a simple dog would be able to successfully track the party to where they were resting and canceling the rope trick is just a simple dispel magic away. Surprise!
Possibly, but now you're talking about opposition that has both a tracker and someone capable of casting detect magic and dispel magic. You're limiting the possibilities for what adventures qualify as valid.
It's everything I hated about running 3E, you had this giant checklist like: Must be able to detect invisibility, must be able to counter flight, must be able to cast dispel magic, must be able to track, must counter teleportation, and so on.
You ended up with a giant laundry list of stuff, the higher in level you got, and eventually all your adventures started to look more or less the same. The villain was always some powerful high-level spellcaster. His minions had a set makeup of stuff, and you always had to stick to that cookie-cutter mold or the adventure just didn't work all that well. And if you got into stuff liek Shivering touch and including cold immune monsters, that subset of adventures you can run got smaller and smaller. Your creativity was just stifled and suffocated by an overbearing checklist of prerequisites for every adventure.
And it sucked. I never want to go back to that. I want to be able to tell more stories, not less. I'm sick of trying to act as a crutch for bad game design. I have better things to do as a DM.
I can identify with that feeling. For me it was the the hour long grinding battles in 4e that just sucked the fun out of the game, so I am hoping that DnD Next will learn from the mistakes of that bad game design
And yet, I am supposed to believe that the 1 encounter per day is a valid tactic in a world that should expect that very thing. Its just not logical.
Well, the problem is that the world by default doesn't, because it makes for boring storytelling. It's not the kind of game you want to be running, despite being logical. Now the goal there is pretty much get the mechanics to conform to the way you want the adventure to look, as opposed to vice versa. I mean yeah, we could turn every dungeon into simply a hole where monsters flood from until they're all dead. It'd be boring as hell, but we could do it.
But if the mechanics encourage a setting we don't want, we should change the mechanics, not the setting. Otherwise we end up running a story we don't want to run, and what's the point of that?
The story we want to tell is a multi-room dungeon that PCs gradually explore and go deeper in. It's not an oriface on the surface of the gameworld that spewes an endless horde to attack the PCs. So why the hell don't we make mechanics that suit the style we want, instead of the other way around?
I am not sure what type of game would work well for this type of adventure, but certainly any mechanics set up for a dungeon crawl game are going to bite hard when we play something else.
Pro DnD Member of the Axis of Awesome Fighters: Using socks to kill monsters since 2012 DnD Next: Now with more then 4 minutes of Roleplay per gaming hour Spoiler:
Show
"If you can't make an interesting human fighter, then you aren't ready to play anything else yet" Edymnion
"The idea of resting up between encounters to fill-up on hit points and spells struck my meta-gaming nine-year-old as a distinct possibility. "Are you mad?" says my seven-year-old "This place is full of monsters!" "jamesgrahamuk
All characters have a story. Spoiler:
Show
Sometimes that story is short and sometimes it is long. They can be tragic, comic or absurd. Some teach. Some are just to fill the empty spaces in our lives. Rarely it is a transcendent fugue only half remembered but wondered at. And frequently: "it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." -William Shakespeare
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7 months ago ::
Dec 02, 2012 - 7:59PM
#1468
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Sleeps - I don't think you got my scenario - the point was we were trying to give the beleaguered party a choice - push on and explore the ruins (knowing it will deplete their resources and make the rest of the travel through the swamp more risky), or bypass it and play it safe. If the trip through the swamp is multi-day, and no special dm rule prevents thedaily users from refreshing, then the ruins have no impact on the swamp - it may be dangerous, but they'll rest and recuperate all spells, hp, etc by the next day. As you say, the players don't know if the ruins is dangerous, so, maybe some parties will decide not to seek treasure. I guess. But, it doesn't capture the danger than a multi-day milestone system can provide effectively.
As for milestones only being combat related, I dont see why the system proposed must onlydeal with combat. No recent system (4e, fate) limited milestones to combat only. It's true that the example linked to talked about combat, but I see that as an oversight, not a requirement. As you point out, linking milestones only to combat undervalues non combat actors. However, if it makes your point, I conceed I was confused and hereby recommend milestone systems include non-combat as a recommendation.
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7 months ago ::
Dec 02, 2012 - 8:27PM
#1469
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Date Joined:
Oct 30, 2012
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That would only be an issue if the party was able to totally guarantee that they were able to hide where they cast their rope trick spell. I would say that a simple dog would be able to successfully track the party to where they were resting and canceling the rope trick is just a simple dispel magic away. Surprise!
LOL That MIGHT work once before the party 'peppers' there tracks or uses a fly/dimension door/levitate/spider climb to make a ground trail end or even pull out a mighty 0 level spell prestidigitation to make a few marks around the area to throw off detect magic. At worst, you've made the enemies waste a third level spell.
On a side note, I don't think a detect magic even works on a rope trick. detect magic states 'This spell does not reveal invisible creatures or magic that conceals spells, objects, or creatures.' and rope trick states 'The rope’s upper end leads into an invisible extradimensional space, where the rope is affixed.' So rope trick seems like it's a spell that 'conceals creatures' and can't be detected be detect magic. So how is the person going to cast dispel magic without knowing where the spell is? How can he target it without being able to see it?
Detect magic doesn't reveal it, meaning it doesn't make it visable, but it sure as heck detects the magic in the area. You know something magical is within the area. You just can't see it. Heck you know it is transmutation. A simple int check (modified by knowledge arcane lore) will likely give you an idea of what spells are possibly being used in the area that are transmutation spells and are invisible. The invisibility just becomes a greater indicator at that point.
You are wrong. The spell states that it 'does not reveal', meaning the spell doesn't detect magic. The dispel magic spell is targeted, meaning you have to see your target and NOT just dispel an area. 'Choose one creature, object, or spell effect within 100 feet of you.' Since you can't target the spell (see spell targeting in HOW TO PLAY), as you must SEE your target, you can't use dispel magic on an invisible objects. I think the part you missed was this 'does not reveal invisible creatures or magic that conceals spells, objects, or creatures' So detect magic doesn't even give you a clue about anything invisible. Or if it's just about the word reveal, it isn't tied to sight. It's about discovering something and that is also what detect means. So you don't detect (Synonym for reveal) invisible objects.
As far as skill:arcane lore, nowhere does it say you can detect magic in it. If you could detect it and/or see it, then you could use the skill to figure out what it is, but it isn't an invisibility finder skill.
the int check (modified by arcane lore) was just compiling clues and making an assumption based on it.
I have an invisible piece of magic
its transmutation
Int check to figure out the list of things that could possibly be. Score high enough and your character also has a reasonable assumption given other environmental clues.
however reviewing detect magic I'm not sure who's right. I think I am leaning in the you are right direction. I just don't want to admit it because that is total garbage. The point of detect magic is so you can sense the magic in an area including invisible stuff. That was actually one of the best things you could use it for. It didn't make it not invisible nor did it make it any easier to find it just let you know something near you was invisible. I mean if your interpretation is correct that means detect magic doesn't pierce disguise self (a 0 level spell) or any illusion spell used to conceal things. Heck If I use minor illusion to create a wall for people to hide behind technically detect magic won't be able to detect it because it is being used to conceal creatures. I really hope that they meant a different definition of reveal.
re·veal 1 (r-vl)
tr.v. re·vealed, re·veal·ing, re·veals1.a. To make known (something concealed or secret): revealed a confidence. b. To bring to view; show. 2. To make known by supernatural or divine means: "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven" (Romans 1:18).
I really hope they were refering to b and not a or 2. However it's really hard to justify that given the bulk of the definitions of reveal.
I mean technically almost all magic your going to try detecting is itself concealed (To keep from being seen, found, observed, or discovered; hide) in that it is not normally visible...hell the inclusion of that section within the spell detect magic kinda voids its ability to ever work on anything other than overt magic you can see happening. Otherwise the magic is somewhat concealed and therefore can't be revealed by detect magic. I'm going to go with them screwing up the wording here because of how many spells this can't detect.
can't detect mage armor
can't detect so many spells because they specifically make something that is undetectable and concealed.
good catch on the completely broken spell.
Yeah, its a 1st level spell in most editions so I can easily see where it wouldn't be able to detect invisible effects. In fact in 3E there were more powerful versions at higher levels. One basically gave you permanent detect magic vision, another told you anything you wanted to know about an effect or object that was magical.
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7 months ago ::
Dec 02, 2012 - 9:01PM
#1470
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In Englishs example he was fighting Goblins, so no they most probably do not have extra dimensional abilities, but with Goblins I would have them attacking the party in waves so that you basically had a whole days worth of encounters at one time. Then when the party rests it is because they are totally tapped out and not because they have lost one spell and need to memorise it.
The problem is that how do the goblins really even know where the rope trick is or that the party is even using one. You can basically rope trick almost anywhere and the only way you're going to find it is with a detect magic spell. Even if the goblins had some kind of caster that could use one, even searching something as simple as a 2 mile radius around their lair with a spell that only lasts a few minutes and "sees" only 60 ft at a time is going to be pretty mcuh impossible, so setting up some kind of ambush on the rope trick just isn't very likely.
As far as pulling the dungeon on them, well wouldn't that just be the goblin's default security protocol? Why does it change because the party is using rope trick?
But certainly at higher levels, and especially if the party has started to make a name for themselves, you would expect any BBEG with a high intelligence to be aware of spells like Rope Trcik and to be prepared to deal with parties that use it. It is not only common sense but it is the logical thing to do.
The problem is that there's really not a good way to be prepared. Even if you know your enemies use rope trick, it doesn't help you much, because there's not any easy way to locate it.
The only real "counter" is just having good security protocols that involve pulling your dungeon on a group of intruders, but really, why wouldn't you just have that protocol in place from the start? Dungeons are designed to be fortified lairs and the D&D world is a dangerous one, so it makes little sense to me that monsters would start out wtih a lax security protocol at all.
I gotta agree here. This is what we are talking about when we say contrived...
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