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8 months ago ::
Oct 06, 2012 - 8:38AM
#31
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Date Joined:
May 25, 2012
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If you think the future of the hobby should be limited by those to whom it has appealed in the past, you're thinking too small. Women and girls, ages 10 & up, make up a much larger portion of the reading public, are much more likely to engage in social and imaginative play than males, and these days play more games than boys do to. WotC is not going to alienate them to appease a few goons who think guts and porn are "mature."
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8 months ago ::
Oct 06, 2012 - 8:43AM
#32
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Date Joined:
Feb 19, 2009
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I respect that you have a differing viewpoint professordaddy. I don't think our discussion can really proceed meaningfully until one of us can provide RPG market research to support our anecdotal theories though.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 06, 2012 - 8:44AM
#33
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Date Joined:
Jan 17, 2012
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again, why are people (like you professor,) so fixated on porn? sex happens, even in fantasy, but sex and violence are not the only two things that make content "mature." murders, are not necessarily "violent" but it is part of the adult content, so is blackmail, so are many crimes... but all you want to bring it back to is porn porn porn.
but no, of course sex cant be part of a fantasy story, I mean, the idea that a dragon may only want to have virgins sacrificed to feed its evil hunger has never been a part of a fantasy story right?
come on man, and if the market has spoken as I showed very clearly earlyer... its shown that adult situations ARE what most gamers want.
how about this, Jamie lannister was just a so-so villian, up until he had sex with his sister the queen, and shoved a child out of a window for witnessing it. At that point, Jamie and the story got interesting.
Until then it was just another swords and knights fantasy. you think incest and the brutal crippling and/or murder of children is something your going to see on the next installment of the wizzards of waverly place? you think that isn't adult content?
adult and mature content has its place in D&D, all I'm asking for is
1) that they devote a few pages to running evil parties in the core books.
2) that in the future they devote "some" adventure paths to mature or adult content similar to whats seen on these award winning shows with the off the charts neilson ratings.
3) that they include a few more details about evil religions, cults, and monsters motivations, goals, tatics, and more nefarious abilities.
why is that such a bad thing? why does that make me a pervert and some how turn D&D into F.A.T.A.L?
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
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8 months ago ::
Oct 06, 2012 - 8:45AM
#34
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I agree with Hocus smocus; the label "mature" usually just means gratuitous sex and violence, usually mashed up together in an unsettling way. Actual maturity means dealing with difficult issues with multiple implications. Instead of an antipaladin burning the paladin's daughter to death and coercing him to murder kids (pretty ham handed), what if the villain tempts or tricks the hero into commiting a seemingly small sin for what appears to be a greater good? Then the hero learns of the greater implications of their actions; will they tell everyone what they have done and try to fix it? Will they pretend they don't notice? Will they try to cover it up and fix it themselves? That could be an interesting and really mature story. It could have all kinds of sex and violence in it, but also some actual tension.
I do think the core of the game should stay rated PG. I play this game with my kid as well as with other adults. I don't want to have to constantly screen out the wildly inappropriate stuff.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 06, 2012 - 8:49AM
#35
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Date Joined:
Jan 17, 2012
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but Grey does that mean we cant have a few pages on running evil parties in the core books? or some supplements that do target more mature themes? cant we have a PG-13 game with some R rated optional rules or non-core encounters?
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
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8 months ago ::
Oct 06, 2012 - 8:51AM
#36
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2011
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As long as it's not another book that defines 'Evil" mechanics as "You must be this big of a **** to the other players to get this benefit." I'll be fine.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 06, 2012 - 9:48AM
#37
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Date Joined:
May 25, 2012
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Again, the market has already spoken on this issue. The one time D&D ventured into this territory, they got protests from their own authors and ended up apologizing. Not going to happen again just to please a few who think torture and incest need to be covered by official imprimatur.
Dead issue.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 06, 2012 - 11:22AM
#38
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Date Joined:
Jan 17, 2012
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and again professor, you dont read the links you claimed to examine... Much of the content and concepts of Book of Vile Darkness have since been reprinted or adapted in source books without the "Mature Audiences Only" label. Rules for drug use had in fact already been printed, [12] while later material included corrupt spells, [13] vile feats, [13] possession, [14] and detailed discussions of demon lords yes, again the market has spoken and what the market said was... we want more! the "mature" material was REPRINTED AND SOLD AGAIN! so IT DID HAPPEN AGAIN and WAS COVERED BY OFFICIAL IMPRIMATUR. can you please try to find a way to keep being more wrong? its actually becomming entertaining now. dead opinion.
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
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8 months ago ::
Oct 06, 2012 - 11:55AM
#39
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Date Joined:
Sep 28, 2009
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1) that they devote a few pages to running evil parties in the core books.
2) that in the future they devote "some" adventure paths to mature or adult content similar to whats seen on these award winning shows with the off the charts neilson ratings.
3) that they include a few more details about evil religions, cults, and monsters motivations, goals, tatics, and more nefarious abilities.
why is that such a bad thing? why does that make me a pervert and some how turn D&D into F.A.T.A.L?
I agree with you.
Evil and its methods belong in D&D and the DM in particular need to understand evil to make believable villains. This is not easy and material would help.
I also think the PHB shouldn't, as they have earlier, rule out the evil alignment for players. When one player is evil and makes the other players suffer for it (one way or another) that's ****ing annoying, but evil has its place. All evil parties can be great fun and are often more complicated. But evil is harder to do right, which is merit for officiel material on the subject.
The good alignment is really much simpler: you want to help people.
Neutral: prosper, survive.
Evil: What do they want? To see the world burn? To kill all living things?
I would like to know more about what drives evil creatures and people and how they reach their goals.
Sex in D&D, on the other hand, has no interest for me. I don't think it's inappropriate, it just doesn't bring me anything. I once tried to make a female NPC sexually interesting, but on her first meeting with the "heroes", my gamers immediately nicknamed her "Urtesækken" which means Herb Bitch, because they are lazy with their interaction and notation with the world.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 06, 2012 - 2:30PM
#40
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The OP makes one pretty huge mistake in his argument: I dont know about the rest of you, but when I started gaming... it was a considered an evil and rebellous hobby.
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I think that greatly enhanced the attraction of D&D to new and young gamers... gaming was evil, the quick and attractive lure of the dark side worked very well for TSR and brought about what we now call the golden age of gaming
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lets be honest... the best TV shows on right now are "Game of Thrones" "Boardwalk Empire" "Dexter" "Sparticus" "true blood" "strike back" "Sons of Anarchy" and all the other shows which come on after 10:00 PM, mostly on cable due to serious adult content.
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you guys got any thoughts on this? will there be another "book of vile darkness" or have we seen the end of adult themed D&D books?
You cannot make something adult just by making it inapropriate for children. Making D&D "evil" solely by adding sex and violence doesn't make D&D any more mature; in fact, it likely appeals to a more juveline audience.
The examples are adult for other reasons, and the sex and violence is there because it does not shy away from that content. But just sex & violece is empty, and shows with nothing else to offer vanish. It's just inflamitory. And needlessly so.
In terms of shock value, D&D has lost its edge and cannot compete with the internet and video games. Period. Trying to compete with that content on its own level is foolish and will only risk losing what sets D&D apart and makes PnP RPGs special and interesting.
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