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8 months ago ::
Oct 06, 2012 - 7:55AM
#191
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Why do we need the last sentence that you quoted?
Why can't we leave it as "Choose race. Choose class. Choose healing style. Choose casting style. Choose magic item rarity. Choose campaign setting. Choose background. Choose specialty."
Why are people so afraid of there not being a "right" way to play?
No one is worried about playing the "right way." People are afraid of no clear way.
I look at this and say, ok there is no way to balance a game like this (and you're absolutely kidding yourself if you think it's possible). Within the first two modules they'll be erratta probably 50 pages long.
Others look at this and say, well there's no default so the world I've spent years working on as a DM might be for waste, as it will never be shared. Why? Because the default is actually everything.
Others look at this and think, without any clearly defined path what kind of game do I want to play? Screw it. I will choose a game that has a singular vision.
Others look at it and think, so the fluff I enjoy may or may not have an impact on the rules. The races I enjoy may or may not be liked by the group. The casting style may or may not be liked by the DM. Gosh, I'm going to have trouble finding a group.
Mand,
Ever try to go out to eat with your family if there are little kids invovled. I don't have this issue, but about a million of my colleagues do. They choose, change because Johnny doesn't like Italian, then uncle Frank insists he knows an Italian place that's so good that Johnny will like it, but aunt Teresa can't eat gluten, then grandpa steps in and wants Chinese, but everyone groans, so grandma steps in and wants to go to Denny's because people can get what they want. Problem is the food is crap, and in the end, no one is really happy except the kids who have no taste buds anyway and got a sugar high from eating pancakes loaded with syrup.
Now, people come over for Thanksgiving. There is one clear person choosing the menu. Her name is mom. She cooks and everyone is content.
Yea, it's like that.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 06, 2012 - 8:27AM
#192
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Date Joined:
Jun 22, 2010
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You can call it default, clear way, or core, but the majority of the thread comes out as do it one way versus another. That is no surprise, we all share different views and preferences. And the context of what default means will change depending on the argument. As you can easily just state everything in the players handbook, dungeon master guide and monster manual are default.
You can have specific classes with alternate mechanics (I believe the wizard may be the only one), and each one can be viable and even balanced against each other. So no matter what alternate mechanic you choose, you are still playing the same game. Now it may be demonstrated over time one alternate mechanic is better than the other, just like one class is better than another in certain situations. But once again it is all viable.
If adding a couple extra classes or alternate mechanics in the players handbook breaks the game, then we do not have much faith in the developers, or probably less faith our specific preferences in D&D will be supported. But with the later, you still have all the versions of D&D available to play, so I would rather see Next move in a new direction and attempt to be more inclusive to different play styles and not swing entirely to one side of the spectrum like 4E. And technically the only thing new 4E added was encounter powers and rituals. The 4E class structure may have seem rigid to some, but they were still classes with roles just like any version of D&D.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 06, 2012 - 8:59AM
#193
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Date Joined:
Jan 17, 2012
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"This way is the default way. Or, if you're a cheesy, powergaming munchkin with no respect for the DM's authority and are just there to make his life a living hell, you can choose an alternate option."
that is a reality where I game, if you dont want to use ALL the pathfinder books, your game is broken and we dont want to play in it is the message I get from the players in my area.
D&D will have the same issue if say you want to run FG and tell the players "hey guys I decided since I'd prefer running a more realistic game, I want to use the hit location and infected wounds optional rules, along with the limb disablement rules" almost immediately since your game is not standard, you'll get the lable of "oh thats the DM that likes to kill and disease characters while ripping their limbs off"
If there is no default other than maybe an extreme noob learnin the game default, then that issue never comes up, because other than noob 101 there are no defalt rules to make you compare to... all non-noob games are non-standard.
make sense?
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
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8 months ago ::
Oct 06, 2012 - 9:07AM
#194
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Date Joined:
Jan 17, 2012
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pen and paper- and then mom says "rather than turkey and all the fixins for the rest of the thanksgivings were only going to eat oatmeal mixed with uncooked squid, trust me, the way I cook it you'll love it"
you see in this there is a default, you expect turkey n fixins, when mom says she's changed the menu, you may or may not choose to eat it, or you may try it and decide your never going to mom's again for thanksgiving.
its much better if when you go to mom's, you have no idea what to expect, so you cant get let down or feel there must be something wrong with mom.
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
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8 months ago ::
Oct 06, 2012 - 9:09AM
#195
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Date Joined:
Jun 22, 2010
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I have been excluded from gaming groups based on the simple fact we did not share the same play styles regardless of the game being played or what is default. And 9 times out of 10, I made the decision not to play with the group. There is not going to be a good answer, and for everyone that is happy that 1E is the default style, there will be an equal amount of 3E or 4E people that will walk away. But if a proximity of each style is available as default, you would hope the main drive of any game is to accept the differences and have fun.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 06, 2012 - 9:22AM
#196
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Date Joined:
Feb 19, 2009
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you see in this there is a default, you expect turkey n fixins, when mom says she's changed the menu, you may or may not choose to eat it, or you may try it and decide your never going to mom's again for thanksgiving.
That's exactly right, and that's how it should be. Though to follow your anaology of "mom as DM", she really should call you ahead of time and tell you that she is serving something else.
Also, oatmealamari is delicious and a traditional Illithid Thanksgiving dish,
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8 months ago ::
Oct 06, 2012 - 9:39AM
#197
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2012
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Mand12
I know you're exagerating for effect but even toning that down I don't think I've ever seen that happen in a D&D book, except perhaps the DMG and other DM specific supplements before 3e where they reinfornced that the DM has the final say.
No no, you misunderstand completely. I'm not saying that books have said this, I'm saying that DMs have said this.
then it's pretty much beyond the scope of this discussion as that's a social issue rather than a mechanical or editorial one that is beyond the control of the designers.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 06, 2012 - 9:46AM
#198
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2012
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"This way is the default way. Or, if you're a cheesy, powergaming munchkin with no respect for the DM's authority and are just there to make his life a living hell, you can choose an alternate option."
that is a reality where I game, if you dont want to use ALL the pathfinder books, your game is broken and we dont want to play in it is the message I get from the players in my area.
That's really unfortunate, man. If that's the case then you're kinda stuck 'cause no game layout or array of choices will solve that issue. That's just a cultural thing that isn't something you can really account for when you're publishing stuff. From where I'm sat based on what you've said, your only real hope is to adopt everything in the initial publication and then ween them off that attitude by not automatically accepting eveything that gets published. No guarantee of success but it's worth a try. However, 5e does offer an interesting choice for your local gaming culture because some of the options they're talking about realy do have to be chosen to the exclusion of all else. It'll be interesting to see what a group like yours does with that.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 06, 2012 - 10:47AM
#199
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Date Joined:
Feb 19, 2009
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You can't just say "The default is to use everything in all the books" if parts of the books present rules that are expressed as branching options.
Saying "Use all the races" or "use all the casting systems" is fine. Even NOT saying it and have that be the unwritten assumption is fine
You cannot say "Use all the healing methods" or "Use all the ways of giving starting characters hit points." when those options are mutually exclusive.
If there are 10 such decision points in the book, then you can reasonably expect a group to go through them one by one and choose how they are going to play. It will make the game harder for new players (and especially new DMs) but not unmanageably so.
If there are 100 such decisions points (and I personally believe the number will be much closer to 100 than 10) then not having an assumed FLAEVO is unworkable.
Whether you think it can be done has a great deal to do with how many of those mutually exclusive choices you think will need to be made before the first dice hits the table.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 06, 2012 - 12:36PM
#200
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pen and paper- and then mom says "rather than turkey and all the fixins for the rest of the thanksgivings were only going to eat oatmeal mixed with uncooked squid, trust me, the way I cook it you'll love it"
you see in this there is a default, you expect turkey n fixins, when mom says she's changed the menu, you may or may not choose to eat it, or you may try it and decide your never going to mom's again for thanksgiving.
its much better if when you go to mom's, you have no idea what to expect, so you cant get let down or feel there must be something wrong with mom.
No, she didn't. She said I'm going to cook THANKSGIVING dinner. And there is a broadly based assumed definition of what that dinner is. She's not changing the definition. She's going to cook the turkey, make mashed potatoes, sweet potatoes, green bean casserole, gravy, apple pie, pumpkin pie, and a boat load of appetizers and drinks. She's going to pull out the china and the silver. She's going to take out good wine. She's going to do her best. She's going to hope you like it. And she's going to adhere to as many cultural-traditions that allow. Sure, she may forgo marshmellows on the yams (thank god), or she might make her stuffing with sausage, but it will still be recognizable. And in the end, if someone comes over and says, well this is terrible - then so be it. If someone comes over and wants to order hamburgers and hot dogs and insists on french toast, then they really didn't want Thanksgiving dinner. In the end, she did her best, and if they can't appreciate the effort, then oh well.
If someone wants to bring their traditional Lebanese tabouli dish and throw it in the mix. Great. But, if it really doesn't get eaten, that's ok too. It was his/her dish, one in which, they thought would work well with the rest of the menu. Key point, they didn't get in the way of mom's cooking, use her kitchen, and/or force it on everyone else.
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