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9 months ago ::
Sep 26, 2012 - 1:46PM
#41
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Date Joined:
Jul 31, 2007
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I'm not opposed to multiclassing itself. It's a great way to show how a character "switches gears" later in life, like the rogue that finds religion, or the paladin that loses his.
What I don't like is when people whose answer to the question "What class do you play?" is something like "wizard/fighter/cleric/rogue/ranger/paladin/holy liberator/true necromancer." (Just an example, as I'm sure that combo would be horrible.) And, yes, I've known people who had more slashes in their class than letters in their character name.
I would rather there be more base classes to account for these weird combinations of features. Like, instead of a Fighter/wizard, roll up a swordmage or bladesinger.
I like multiclassing as a vehicle for character development, rather than as a vehicle for munchkining combat abilities.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 26, 2012 - 1:57PM
#42
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1) It is 'unrealistic':
So is most advancement in D&D if you want to take that position. If you don't enforce some kind of down time and training, level advancement in a single class can go at ludicrous speed ("buckle this!") with characters going from basic recruits to epic heroes in very short periods of time.
I wish they'd deal with this and slow advancement right down. I hate levelling up too quickly. I want to feel like each level is something to be earned, and when I get it, I want to feel that I've achieved something significant.
However, as for levelling up itself, after months and months of working in the field, you're going to gradually get better at stuff. Levelling up is supposed to reflect this, although these days it happens far too quickly.
The difference with multiclassing is that, with levelling up, you're getting better at what you do. With multiclassing, you're gaining an ability to do something you've, to all intents and purposes, never attempted until now (and apparently learned by watching over somebody's shoulder for a few hours  ).
Everything expressed in this post is my opinion, and should be taken as such. I can not declare myself to be the supreme authority on all matters...even though I am right!
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9 months ago ::
Sep 26, 2012 - 1:59PM
#43
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Date Joined:
Jul 25, 2003
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I like multiclassing as a vehicle for character development, rather than as a vehicle for munchkining combat abilities.
And that's the rub, because it's nearly impossible to make multiclassing meaningful for character development without also opening the door to mechanical synergy for character optimizers. And people who see character development and character optimization as a turf war between two mutually exclusive playstyles have a hard time reconciling that.
Don't ask me why, I happen to like characters that break molds and are also effective.
EDIT: Incidentally, anytime anyone tries to imply that I should be ashamed of my optimizing I just think of that sarcastic "Feeling the shame, sir."
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9 months ago ::
Sep 26, 2012 - 2:04PM
#44
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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I understand some pessimism but people are gloomy jaded blackcloaks who think this or that is impossible so don't even try. The problems of the past were identified and bandaged partially by many groups and their houserules. I can see how one could say it is hard but some act as if is impossible.
Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds.
Constitution Based Class for Next!
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9 months ago ::
Sep 26, 2012 - 2:04PM
#45
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..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />
1) It is 'unrealistic':
So is most advancement in D&D if you want to take that position. If you don't enforce some kind of down time and training, level advancement in a single class can go at ludicrous speed ("buckle this!") with characters going from basic recruits to epic heroes in very short periods of time.
I wish they'd deal with this and slow advancement right down. I hate levelling up too quickly. I want to feel like each level is something to be earned, and when I get it, I want to feel that I've achieved something significant.
However, as for levelling up itself, after months and months of working in the field, you're going to gradually get better at stuff. Levelling up is supposed to reflect this, although these days it happens far too quickly.
The difference with multiclassing is that, with levelling up, you're getting better at what you do. With multiclassing, you're gaining an ability to do something you've, to all intents and purposes, never attempted until now (and apparently learned by watching over somebody's shoulder for a few hours ).
You can advance your group and whatever rate you feel like. Halve, or double, or third, or triple the XP awards, or just throw XP out and tell people to level up when you want.
As far as 'well, a guy in the real world can't do this', we aren't talking about guys in the real world. We're not talking about scientists or engineers or doctors. We're talking about badass action-movie heroes. We're talking about adventurers.
I still laugh at the idea that nobody blinks twice at throwing a bit of bat poop into the air and getting an explosion, but OMG multiclassing isn't realistic!
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 26, 2012 - 2:17PM
#46
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Date Joined:
Jan 30, 2012
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You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in an thread with GM_Champion" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against AzureShade when card design is on the line!
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9 months ago ::
Sep 26, 2012 - 3:24PM
#47
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We're talking about badass action-movie heroes.
You might be. I'm not. 
I don't like badass action movie heroes, who start off awesome and become even more awesome. If you start off as a badass action hero, where is there left for you to develop? My favourite characters in films like Lord of the Rings aren't the Aragorns and the Gandalfs, but the Faramirs and Beregonds - the lesser heroes who aren't overly badass. This is exactly what I hated about 4th edition, and exactly why I hope 5th edition goes the other way - or at least provides mechanics that make it easy for a GM to do so without having to completely rewrite the game.
Pathfinder had a nice levelling mechanic - you could choose different XP tables, depending on how fast you wanted advancement to be.
Everything expressed in this post is my opinion, and should be taken as such. I can not declare myself to be the supreme authority on all matters...even though I am right!
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9 months ago ::
Sep 26, 2012 - 3:48PM
#48
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Date Joined:
Jun 22, 2010
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I don't oppose multiclassing discussions in regards to pros and cons as it is actually good to learn from others peoples experiences, but it is hard to guage how it will effect the game when they are don't even have the core classes and speciallties well defined. So I prefer a patient approach to let the dust settle before they try to implement it, because it is the most advanced typed of character development that is traditionally implemented in D&D, so you definitely need a solid baseline.
But I am more old school in preferences, and was not fond of 3.x multiclassing just for the simple fact that too many class features are front loaded. It never made sense to me that you can change your class each level so you start as a thief, become a devout cleric, then decide you want to study arcane. It made more sense to me to choose each class you want at first level, then slowly progress in each.
I would rather have the discussion move to sub-classes after the core class take form with specialties, then see what is left for multiclassing to add yet another facet to the game.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 26, 2012 - 3:59PM
#49
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Date Joined:
May 27, 2012
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It never made sense to me that you can change your class each level so you start as a thief, become a devout cleric, then decide you want to study arcane.
Didn't Elminster do that?
The metagame is not the game.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 26, 2012 - 4:30PM
#50
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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Leveling speed is up to the DM and the groups. I've had and seen groups that stay certain levels for long periods of time. Literally saying "One year later... you all level up."
What really matters on the believability of multiclassing and characters in generals is what the various levels represent.
If the first level of wizard is a fully trained arcanist who went through years of raw study to learn how to warp reality with words, gestures, and odd scribblings then multiclassing into it would require a lot of time. A DM worried about believability might ban multiclassing once the campaign starts unless sufficient time.
If the first level of wizard is a wet eared wimp who was quickly taught how to read magic and cast a few spells, then quick multiclass dipping makes total sense.
Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds.
Constitution Based Class for Next!
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