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Sep 22, 2012 -- 10:21PM, CarlT wrote:

Sep 22, 2012 -- 9:50PM, rampant wrote:

My own recomendation is this:  Humans can raise any three stats by one point (the human advantage) and then they can raise any one stat which can either be one of those same three stats or a fourth stat).  They end up with pretty much the same top three stats - but they aren't raising all the stats, so the knee jerk objections aren't as strong.


It also has the benefit of working better with rolled stats (if you roll two or three odd numbers, human bonus remains 'OK' - but if you roll all odd numbers, for example, human bonus becomes immense.  It also probably works better with point buy (although, again, just increasing the total points would be better).


Carl

The inital challenge I set myself was a bit nebulous as my concern was not merely finding a balance for the default array, but balancing the default array against a point buy system which frankly at this point is entirely a bit of an assumption leap. I like where you went with the (3) +1s construct. I think it meets the balance requirement of being comparable to demihuman abilities by being in what I was calling the "net +2 stat bonus" range. In comparison to my (1) +2 / (1) +1 recommendation I find that I like that it emphasises human versatility over distinguishing themselves by power pumping a single stat (more in line with the "classical" placement of humans in earlier additions). In practice this might result in human characters having a little broader play style - e.g. a human fighter might be a bit more agile on their feet and more hardy, its kind of a cool triple-threat niche.

Not sure how a 4th floating +1 would balance out - I need to matrix out how it specifically plays out in individual point buy scenarios for 20, 18 and 16 primary scores against demi-humans. My intial reaction is that it starts stacking the benefit overly in the human camp again - core to this evaluation however would be how we each respectively weigh demi-human abilities. My impression from your comments above is that you may be weighing them a little heavier then I am. I did some back of the napkin calculations where I counted a dmg die shift as equivalent to 1/2 of what a full stat +1 would give (as you dont get the + hit component), toxin immunity as 1/4 of what a full +1 Con bonus would give, etc. Might be worth revisiting but as a methodology its pretty open to interpretation and short changes some of the more situational abilities (like halfling re-roll and elven advantage on checks to avoid surprise which both could literally be life savers). For me the human evalutation is generally, would I trade +1 AC, +1 HP, +1 init, and +1 Dex/Con saves for demi-human abilities xyz.
 
There may also be something to be said for just giving humans a single discretionary +1 (i.e. the human benefit would be they have a bit more flexibility as to how their stats synergize with their class) instead of trying to force some degree of apples and oranges balancing between stats and demihuman abilities. Matching humans up stat-wise with demi-humans would leave more mitigable gap to be closed with some unique human abilities yet developed.

As an aside, I didn't focus in on random generation methods in my initial post as by their nature there is a sense of trading a rigid play balance for the story telling advantages of the runny-nosed, lackwit overcoming adversity to save the world. ; )

Sep 22, 2012 -- 9:50PM, rampant wrote:

Sep 22, 2012 -- 9:44PM, CarlT wrote:

Sep 22, 2012 -- 9:39PM, rampant wrote:

The entire race section of the playtest is pretty much garbage and I hope that it sees the kind of revamping that the classes saw.

 

 I hope that comment isn't intended to be useful feedback.  Because it's not.


carl

I'll try again.

The races are horribly crafted and are in need of a major overhaul, the ubermensch humans are just the most obvious symptom. I find the idea of +1 to two stats intruiging if we are left with +1s still being a thing, but hopefully they'll stop that. Basically while I love the analysis and think you have some good ideas on how to fix the specific imbalance, but I'd rather see the entire section redone than just fix the current humans.

First off Karma points to Rampart for not raging at constructive critisism and just breaking out his actual critique. The forums need more arguments to go like this.


Races were probably the lease interesting and most disappointing update to this playtest (to me). While rolling stats is my rule of choice the system should match up to all modulars that they are planning on adding (which is all of them so...). Personally I'd like humans to get a simple +2 to any one, extra trained skill at level 1, and maybe something multiclass based. Two +1's might also be interesting.