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9 months ago ::
Sep 21, 2012 - 12:34AM
#61
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Date Joined:
Mar 30, 2007
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All right, Weapon Properties by Group have been updated in the second post after the original one. For ease of review, here there are again: Weapon Properties by GroupAxe: Can reroll the lowest result of weapon damage once per attack and add the amounts. Dagger: Can add Strength and Dexterity modifier to weapon damage while keeping one hand empty. Bow: Gain advantage after spending previous action aiming without moving before next action. Crossbow: Gain advantage on attacks against armoured opponents. Flail: Can trip opponents prone on a critical hit, or by taking disadvantage on an attack without dealing damage. Hammer: Can stun opponents on a critical hit until the end of their next turn. Mace: Can double Strength modifier againsts armoured opponents. Pick: Can restrain opponents on a critical hit until the end of their next turn. Shield: Can push opponents back 5 feet on a critical hit, or by taking disadvantage on an attack without dealing damage. Sling: Can knock opponents unconscious on a critical hit until the end of their next turn. Spear: Gain 10 feet short range (40 feet long) by taking disadvantage on any attack using the extra range. Staff: Gain reach by taking disadvantage on any attack using the extra 5 feet. Sword: Can disengage or coup de grace as a move instead of an action. Unarmed: Can make two unarmed attacks while keeping both hands empty. Can also make two attacks when wielding one-handed improvised weapons. Whip: Can disarm opponents wielding one-handed weapons on a critical hit, or by taking disadvantage on an attack without dealing damage.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 21, 2012 - 3:48AM
#62
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Date Joined:
Apr 10, 2009
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Also - it shouldn't be very difficult to add it right onto the monster stat bloc from straight out of the DMG, requiring no memorization.
Here's an example:
Bugbear
Medium Humanoid (Goblin)
Armor Class 14 (leather, shield)
...blah blah blah...
ACTIONS
Melee Attack—Large Morningstar: +2 to hit (reach 5 ft.; one creature). Flail: advantage against opponents with shields when used two-handed.
...blah blah blah>>>
Indeed. The more we have this discussion, the more Weapon Properties by Group (rather than individualized weapon properties like every previous edition of D&D) makes the most sense. Also, it still feels like D&D rather than burrowing too much mechanic from other game systems.
Except for 4E which had weapon properties by group buried in the Expertise feats.
Carl
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9 months ago ::
Sep 21, 2012 - 4:05AM
#63
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Date Joined:
Apr 10, 2009
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All right, Weapon Properties by Group have been updated in the second post after the original one.
For ease of review, here there are again:
Weapon Properties by Group
Axe: Can reroll the lowest result of weapon damage once per attack and add the amounts.
Dagger: Can add Strength and Dexterity modifier to weapon damage while keeping one hand empty.
Bow: Gain advantage after spending previous action aiming without moving before next action.
Crossbow: Gain advantage on attacks against armoured opponents.
Flail: Can trip opponents prone on a critical hit, or by taking disadvantage on an attack without dealing damage.
Hammer: Can stun opponents on a critical hit until the end of their next turn.
Mace: Can double Strength modifier againsts armoured opponents.
Pick: Can restrain opponents on a critical hit until the end of their next turn.
Shield: Can push opponents back 5 feet on a critical hit, or by taking disadvantage on an attack without dealing damage.
Sling: Can knock opponents unconscious on a critical hit until the end of their next turn.
Spear: Gain 10 feet short range (40 feet long) by taking disadvantage on any attack using the extra range.
Staff: Gain reach by taking disadvantage on any attack using the extra 5 feet.
Sword: Can disengage or coup de grace as a move instead of an action.
Unarmed: Can make two unarmed attacks while keeping both hands empty. Can also make two attacks when wielding one-handed improvised weapons.
Whip: Can disarm opponents wielding one-handed weapons on a critical hit, or by taking disadvantage on an attack without dealing damage
Not a big fan of the Axe bonus - it seems generally uninteresting and does nothing more than increase the damage (although in a less predictable way). I'd rather see something more like (maybe) the Axe feat from 4E which gave them a big bonus against prone targets. An axe is also different in that you can throw them - even if they aren't really designed for it (there are even competitions for throwing regular wood axes). I'm not sure whether that would make a good feature since the PCs generally don't want to throw their weapons away - but I thought I'd toss it out there. ....
Bow roughly duplicates a feat - so I'm not sure that's a good idea unless they want to dump Sniper.
Crossbow - what I've always wanted for crossbow was something like: You are not penalized for firing a crossbow while prone (i.e. - crossbow doesn't suffer a penalty - normally a -2 - when used by a prone character - which it really shouldn't). Besides which I am highly opposed to automatic advantage ever. Advantage shouldn't be something granted by something as trivial as choice of weapon.
A couple of others seem a bit strong (double strength damage) but I'll let those go for now. If there was a way to justify using a different stat for the bonus damage, that would be better (as with the dagger).
At some point I need to look up what they were using at one point since they started down a similar path once.
Carl
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9 months ago ::
Sep 21, 2012 - 8:37AM
#64
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I agree that properties like so is too much to remember.
Like I said, 3E had it right, its one of those things I feel we should go with the 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it attitude'.
Each weapon was balanced based on damage, type and critical threat range. You could essentially make three different types of swords in the same bracket simply by changing the critical threat range/multiplier. All of which was fairly easy to remember... then some special weapons like polearms had bonuses to trip/disarm, but generally weapons had no special properties, just had to remember the damage and critical properties.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 21, 2012 - 12:35PM
#65
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Date Joined:
Mar 30, 2007
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Like I said, 3E had it right, its one of those things I feel we should go with the 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it attitude'.
Each weapon was balanced based on damage, type and critical threat range. You could essentially make three different types of swords in the same bracket simply by changing the critical threat range/multiplier. All of which was fairly easy to remember... then some special weapons like polearms had bonuses to trip/disarm, but generally weapons had no special properties, just had to remember the damage and critical properties.
It wasn't just polearms. If you don't believe me, you can review them all at this SRD link to D&D 3rd edition. Many of these individualized weapons had 'multiple' properties.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 21, 2012 - 1:19PM
#66
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Date Joined:
Sep 12, 2012
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I like how weapons were treated in the Conan RPG. In addition to your normal DnD stats (it's a D20 game) weapons had Armor Piercing (armor used a DR style, rather than AC), Hardness, and Hit Points. Breaking weapons was an issue, and was a useful combat tactic, so minor differences in Hardness and HP were important. There were essentially 6 different "knife/dagger" weapons that played differently with small changes to their stats. I'd love to see something like Armor Piercing in the game, though it does work best with a damage resistance system. Historically armor penetration was one of the primary reasons different weapons existed. Knights used their swords almost exclusively on unarmored combatants. For other knights they would always use a pick, or an axe, or a mace with spikes/flanges. Real swords break on armor (and against other swords, for that matter). Now DnD is not the real world, so HP and AC are all well and good, but we run into trouble trying to make historical weapons unique and playable, without addressing the reasons they were created for. Within Conan, the AP worked like a Strength bonus that only counted against overcoming the DR of the armor. It did nothing against an unarmored opponent. The same thing might work with AC, come to think of it. It would only count as a bonus to hit against the armor's AC (not dex bonuses). A lot of 5ed abilities seem to count a roll to hit over 10 as a "hit" that might be absorbed by armor, or dodged with dexterity. The same logic could be applied: If your roll was over 10 then you can add your AP to overcoming the armors AC. Dodgy characters still get out of the way, no hit. For light armor, it's kinda useless, as a roll over 10 will likely hit leather anyway, but that still fits the ideal. It might be a good idea to tackle that Death Knight with a Katara en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katara_(dagger) rather than a broadsword, because you'll get a small boost to your attack bonus and a greater chance of connecting for some damage. A AP bonus of +4 or more should only exist in the most dedicated anti-armor weapons, but a 1-2 bonus could be sprinkled on weapons with historical anti-armor use. It would add useful flavor and variety, without nerfing the Heavy armor crew too badly, and wouldn't effect the light/no armor players at all. Like the katara, piercing weapons might not do as much raw damage as their non-piercing relatives, but they would increase the ability to hurt the walking tanks, at least a little.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 21, 2012 - 2:52PM
#67
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I'll also add that it would have been nice to see all weapons have an "advanced" ability that you could only make use of with training. This might have been something neat to give to the fighters pre-CS, but i think that ship has sailed.
The '80s D&D Weapon Mastery (Master set, or Rules Compendium p77-78) does what you describe. Yep, that ship sailed... 27 years ago. 
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9 months ago ::
Sep 22, 2012 - 6:52AM
#68
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Date Joined:
Mar 30, 2007
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Bow roughly duplicates a feat - so I'm not sure that's a good idea unless they want to dump Sniper.
Ah! So it is. That will need some redesign then. Here's a thought.
Bow: Can impose disadvantage on opponent rolls until the end of their next turn by attacking with disadvantage.
The idea here is that, in addition to hurting your opponent, you can aim to hobble them as well.
Crossbow - what I've always wanted for crossbow was something like: You are not penalized for firing a crossbow while prone (i.e. - crossbow doesn't suffer a penalty - normally a -2 - when used by a prone character - which it really shouldn't).
That strikes me as the kind of rule that should go away for crossbows at some point during play-test, especially considering my next point.
Besides which I am highly opposed to automatic advantage ever. Advantage shouldn't be something granted by something as trivial as choice of weapon.
Crossbows are the most penalized weapon in the current play-test. Bows are faster, can shoot farther, and only deal 1 less point of average damage. This makes crossbows an impractical mechanical choice by comparison (especially considering the prone attack penalty you cited above). As crossbows take an action to reload, they need some kind of property to outset their inferior rate-of-fire. Granting 'conditional' automatic advantage against armoured opponents does that.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 22, 2012 - 7:48AM
#69
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Crossbows are the most penalized weapon in the current play-test. Bows are faster, can shoot farther, and only deal 1 less point of average damage. This makes crossbows an impractical mechanical choice by comparison (especially considering the prone attack penalty you cited above). As crossbows take an action to reload, they need some kind of property to outset their inferior rate-of-fire. Granting 'conditional' automatic advantage against armoured opponents does that.
Well, in real life, the crossbow was easy to use - anyone could point it, shoot it, and figure out how to reload it in a matter of seconds. Bows, however, took a lot more practice to get anywhere near your target.
So maybe the mechanical advantage crossbows should have is that almost anyone can use them, while only martial trained characters can use bows.
I doubt WotC will include something that works differently against someone wearing a different type of armour. They stopped doing that in 3rd edition (the closest they came to that is with "touch" and "flat-footed" ACs), so I doubt they'll bring back something that works better against someone wearing different armour.
Everything expressed in this post is my opinion, and should be taken as such. I can not declare myself to be the supreme authority on all matters...even though I am right!
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9 months ago ::
Sep 23, 2012 - 7:21AM
#70
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I'll also add that it would have been nice to see all weapons have an "advanced" ability that you could only make use of with training. This might have been something neat to give to the fighters pre-CS, but i think that ship has sailed.
The '80s D&D Weapon Mastery (Master set, or Rules Compendium p77-78) does what you describe. Yep, that ship sailed... 27 years ago.
I need to find a copy of this, so I can either cry at its loss, or be thankful for it.
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