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9 months ago ::
Sep 05, 2012 - 1:15PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Feb 18, 2010
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The fact that the Cleric knows all of the Cleric Spells and just prepares them each day leads to way too much variance in the Cleric from one day to the next. I did the math for the number of different ways that a Cleric can picks spells and here it is.
| Level |
Combinations |
| 1 |
66 |
| 2 |
220 |
| 3 |
1760 |
| 4 |
6160 |
| 5 |
49280 |
Now compare this to the Wizard
| Level |
Combinations |
| 1 |
10 |
| 2 |
70 |
| 3 |
210 |
| 4 |
1400 |
| 5 |
4200 |
By level 5 the Cleric has more than 10 times the possible combinations of the Wizard who is known for their ability to drastically change from day-to-day. And this is assuming the Wizard prepares a different spell in each slot. If we use the more realistic scenario where the Wizard prepares a spell of each level twice we get and even larger disparity. Wizard preparing a spell of each level twice
| Level |
Combinations |
| 1 |
10 |
| 2 |
56 |
| 3 |
168 |
| 4 |
840 |
| 5 |
2520 |
Now the Cleric has 20 times the combonations at level 5. Your Cleric could be all buffs one day and all debuffs the next and a thousand different things in between. Also this is just way too much choice for a player on a day to day basis. The Cleric should have a spells known list that is far less than "ALL CLERIC SPELLS". How this Spells Known list should be determined, im not sure. Maybe Domain based, maybe the pick them when they level. Maybe a mix of the two. But how it currently stands is way to variable.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 05, 2012 - 1:37PM
#2
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Pulling from some other threads, why not create an optional pre-package of spells in the domains? "For Domain X you gain spell A at level 1, B at level 3, ect. Most Clerics of X also prepair M, N and L each day at first level." It already (kind of) exsists in the Wizard's description, so would it be bad to extend it? That would mean your possible combinations are still incredibly high, but your likely combinations are far smaller.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 05, 2012 - 7:29PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Apr 10, 2009
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Why is the number of different spell combinations an issue?
Carl
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9 months ago ::
Sep 05, 2012 - 7:35PM
#4
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Date Joined:
May 31, 2008
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Why is the number of different spell combinations an issue?
Carl
As I understand it, because Clerics have many more total options than the wizard does, which especially for the cleric with fighting ability doesn't make sense - if the Wizard is the master of exclusively magic, why does the Cleric with several secondary roles have so many more options?
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9 months ago ::
Sep 05, 2012 - 8:54PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Jan 11, 2012
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Why is the number of different spell combinations an issue?
Carl
As I understand it, because Clerics have many more total options than the wizard does, which especially for the cleric with fighting ability doesn't make sense - if the Wizard is the master of exclusively magic, why does the Cleric with several secondary roles have so many more options?
Because Arcane spells are much much much more powerful than wizard spells.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 05, 2012 - 9:09PM
#6
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Date Joined:
May 31, 2008
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Why is the number of different spell combinations an issue?
Carl
As I understand it, because Clerics have many more total options than the wizard does, which especially for the cleric with fighting ability doesn't make sense - if the Wizard is the master of exclusively magic, why does the Cleric with several secondary roles have so many more options?
Because Arcane spells are much much much more powerful than wizard spells.
Sure, maybe in terms of mass damage (Burning Hands/Thunder Wave) and battlefield control. However, the cleric spell list still covers about the same range of options as the wizard list, and the cleric can pick from any of them (boost allies, disadvantage enemies, deal single-target damage, deal with undead, heal all kinds of things, protect yourself or others, scry on the future, preserve dead, save-or-suck, create nutrition, deal with all kinds of magic, communicate with dead). IMO the wizard ultimately has less options. Furthermore, the cleric automatically gains more with each new set of official spells the game uses while the wizard has to find them or wait a level.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 05, 2012 - 11:31PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Apr 10, 2009
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They still do the same number of things per round and the same number of things per encounter.
The number of total choices is a false comparison.
If I added 23094389 crappy spells to the wizard - would that suddenly make the wizard more powerful? If I stripped away 90% of the clerics spells - but made their few spells god-powerful - would that make the cleric less powerful?
This is a meaningless comparison.
Especially because - in practice - the majority of the spells given to both classes never see use in the typical day - or even in the typical campaign.
Carl
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9 months ago ::
Sep 05, 2012 - 11:39PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2007
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Because if clerics had to choose their spells then instead of having 4 interesting first level spells, 2 interesting second level spells, and a third level spell, they would have 7 cure light wounds. I played second edition, and that's what happened.
Cleric spells are situational. Create food and water or endure elements can help you a lot when you need them, but you very rarely need them. If you had to pick what spell you might need without knowing ahead of time, you would just take more copies of cure light wounds. The only way to stop that is to let clerics use all their spells for cure light wounds if they need to, but give them a few other options that won't take away their healing ability by taking "just in case."
Also the math chart really doesn't matter. It reminds me of people in 4e who claimed Fireball was OP because as a burst 3 that dealt 3d6+int damage it had the potential of doing 8,232 damage (7*7*7*24). In practice it really never worked that way. And in practice clerics do not have near as much versatlity as you think they do. Especially when nine times out of ten they are all just gonna be cure lights anyway.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 06, 2012 - 4:07AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Feb 18, 2010
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The number of total choices is a false comparison.
If I added 23094389 crappy spells to the wizard - would that suddenly make the wizard more powerful? If I stripped away 90% of the clerics spells - but made their few spells god-powerful - would that make the cleric less powerful?
Especially because - in practice - the majority of the spells given to both classes never see use in the typical day - or even in the typical campaign.
Carl
Adding crappy wizard spells doesn't change anything, the wizard's combinations are based on what is in that wizard's spellbook, NOT the wizard spell list. So even if you add a ton of crappy spells the wizard will still put the same ones in their spell book and have the same amount of cominations as above.
And the point isn't about actions or recources they get in a day/encounter, it is about their ability to niche-jump on a daily basis. Regardless of a Cleric's domain, he can be a tank one day, a heal bot the next day, a laser cleric the day after that and a party buffer/leader the day after that.
I simply think having some sort of domain based restriction to the spells they can prepare would help flesh out each clerics role and purpose. As of right now the only significant difference clerics of different domains is their weapon/armor proficiencies. Their is currently no reason for anyone (outside of flavor or a fetish for one of the domain spells) for anyone to want to be a Sun Cleric. You can just be a War Cleric in Plate and Shield and do the same thing as Sun Cleric.
Because if clerics had to choose their spells then instead of having 4 interesting first level spells, 2 interesting second level spells, and a third level spell, they would have 7 cure light wounds. I played second edition, and that's what happened..
You misunderstand how Cleric spells are prepared and, as a consequence of that, the point I am trying to make.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 06, 2012 - 5:20AM
#10
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Because if clerics had to choose their spells then instead of having 4 interesting first level spells, 2 interesting second level spells, and a third level spell, they would have 7 cure light wounds. I played second edition, and that's what happened.
Cleric spells are situational. Create food and water or endure elements can help you a lot when you need them, but you very rarely need them. If you had to pick what spell you might need without knowing ahead of time, you would just take more copies of cure light wounds. The only way to stop that is to let clerics use all their spells for cure light wounds if they need to, but give them a few other options that won't take away their healing ability by taking "just in case."
Also the math chart really doesn't matter. It reminds me of people in 4e who claimed Fireball was OP because as a burst 3 that dealt 3d6+int damage it had the potential of doing 8,232 damage (7*7*7*24). In practice it really never worked that way. And in practice clerics do not have near as much versatlity as you think they do. Especially when nine times out of ten they are all just gonna be cure lights anyway.
3rd edition had the spontaneous casting where clerics could sack a 1st level spell, non-domain, for a cure light, 2nd for cure mod, 3rd for cure serious, etc. With clerics here they can cast whatever spell they have prepared as many times as they can cast it, but only need to prepare it once. So yes you can cast 7 spells per day but you are going to have 4 potential cure lights, 2 potential cure mods, and 1 potential cure serious. You might never need to use all of those and get to use the other spells you prepared. Then there is Healing Word, a "healing-strike" spell, where you get a quick heal and still get to be functional. Its less effective than cure light but more versitile in combat.
I don't see the value in having clerics have to learn spells like a Wizard. If there really is a need to limit the spells available than there needs to be a stronger emphasis on the Domains and what spell lists they grant, with plenty of overlap, which I think is the point of the general Cleric spell list. That being the overlap as I'm thinking about this and looking at the list.
Also, I got 5 electrum that says, all the spells for Wizard are not in yet.
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