Personally, I think that humans bonuses are completely overboard and need some re balancing.
Right now humans are more durable than dwarfs, more agile than elves and will be stronger that half orcs.
This is dumb.
If humans are good at everything then they must NOT be best at everything.
If they are jack of all trades ability wise, then lets give them that without overshadowing every single race in their trade mark ability.
So, suggestion is:
Give humans +2 to 3 LOWEST ability roles.
That way, humans will have best overall abilities but not catching up to trademarks of other classes.
EDIT: humans can take 2 favored atributes from their class, but not the same twice.
Personally, I think that humans bonuses are completely overboard and need some re balancing.Right now humans are more durable than dwarfs, more agile than elves and will be stronger that half orcs.This is dumb.If humans are good at everything then th
I agree, there is little reason to pick anything but Human, but they are also the most boring. Not sure how to fix, but they need to, badly. They had the same problem in 3.x. I never looked at a Human and thought it would be fun to roleplay one, but I looked at them and thought I'd be stupid not to play one.
I agree, there is little reason to pick anything but Human, but they are also the most boring. Not sure how to fix, but they need to, badly. They had the same problem in 3.x. I never looked at a Human and thought it would be fun to roleplay one, but
I think they got humans right. I'm getting a sense that humans are getting that because all the other races get other abilities like not having to sleep, being immune to charm or poison, increased damage die, getting to reroll dice, that sort of thing. Im getting the sense the math in this game is getting adjusted quite a bit from 4th edtion.
Also giving them a bonus to their lowest rolls is problematic because not everyone rolls ability scores.
I think they got humans right. I'm getting a sense that humans are getting that because all the other races get other abilities like not having to sleep, being immune to charm or poison, increased damage die, getting to reroll dice, that sort of thin
Modification to weapons equates to a +1 bonus on damage. The lack of the flexibility with which you can use that bonus damage does not equal the +2 to any stat.
What good is the bonus on damage for a High Elf Wizard? By using that trait as a balancer vs the Human, you have made it only a balance for a High/Wood Elf Fighter using a Longsword/Longbow combo, not any other class that an Elf could be. Now if that trait also allowed any elf to use those weapons, it would go a long way to helping the trait. That way you can have a Rogue that uses those weapons, or any class for that matter.
The real problem is that the Human is so stinking boring that the only way to flavor it is the most flexible trait in the game of +2 to any stat. Feels a bit lazy to me.
Modification to weapons equates to a +1 bonus on damage. The lack of the flexibility with which you can use that bonus damage does not equal the +2 to any stat.What good is the bonus on damage for a High Elf Wizard? By using that trait as a balancer
I think they got humans right. I'm getting a sense that humans are getting that because all the other races get other abilities like not having to sleep, being immune to charm or poison, increased damage die, getting to reroll dice, that sort of thing. Im getting the sense the math in this game is getting adjusted quite a bit from 4th edtion.
Also giving them a bonus to their lowest rolls is problematic because not everyone rolls ability scores.
why is that a problem, give them +2 to 3 lowest scores bought or 3 lowest in default array (then it would look: 15,14,14,13,12,10, before class bonuses).
why is that a problem, give them +2 to 3 lowest scores bought or 3 lowest in default array (then it would look: 15,14,14,13,12,10, before class bonuses).
No offense Trance-Zg, but why do I care if my Fighter has a 10 or 8 Cha? Or a 12 Int for that matter?
none taken, but if you want to describe that humans are good at everything that means that they have no or very few low scores.
And that is taken care of by boosting their lowest scores.
none taken, but if you want to describe that humans are good at everything that means that they have no or very few low scores.And that is taken care of by boosting their lowest scores.
There was this problem in 4e when they gave each race an and/or choose for attributes. Every race could choose between two attributes if they wanted to except humans. Humans still were pick one attribute and add +2.
I think maybe adding +2 to 2 different attributes might balance out a bit more than just +1 to every stat.
There was this problem in 4e when they gave each race an and/or choose for attributes. Every race could choose between two attributes if they wanted to except humans. Humans still were pick one attribute and add +2.I think maybe adding +2 to 2 differ
Similar in the fact that it seems that no one knows what to do with humans. Whereas other races were getting +2 to two attributes, humans were only getting +2 to one. At the same time humans didn't have much going for them except you got to pick one extra feat and skill to train in. Where as other races would get two preset skills and a race feat.
The idea always has seemed to be that Humans have access to everything but not as good at their roles as other races. Want to play a fighter? Okay you can add +2 to your Str, you are now a fighter. Wizard? +2 to INT... so on and so forth. But while that is what they are doing in this edition they are taking away the additional benefits such as race skills and race feats that humans at one point had.
Possible race statline for humans Size: Medium Languages: Common Speed: 30ft
Attribute: Choose one and it gets +2 Skills: Can choose one untrained skill to train in.
Human Tenacity: Take Advantage on Death Saving Throws. (Overpowered? Maybe, but I see Humans as beginner player race in most editions)
Similar in the fact that it seems that no one knows what to do with humans. Whereas other races were getting +2 to two attributes, humans were only getting +2 to one. At the same time humans didn't have much going for them except you got to pick one
Right now humans are more durable than dwarfs, more agile than elves and will be stronger that half orcs.
No they are not. Humans can potentially have a higher Con than a dwarf, but a Hill Dwarf will still have more hit points and a Mountain Dwarf will still have more AC (in fact, the Mountain Dwarf is required to get the maximum AC allowed in the game). High elves aren't supposed to be agile, but if you go with smart, ok, Humans can have more Intelligence, but nobody can cast more spells than a High Elf. Wood elves are the agile ones, and while, sure, Humans can have more Dexterity, nobody can move faster than a Wood Elf.
You're missing the point of the racial changes. Humans have the best attributes, but they aren't the best at everything. Attributes are not the whole picture.
No they are not. Humans can potentially have a higher Con than a dwarf, but a Hill Dwarf will still have more hit points and a Mountain Dwarf will still have more AC (in fact, the Mountain Dwarf is required to get the maximum AC allowed in the game)
Similar in the fact that it seems that no one knows what to do with humans. Whereas other races were getting +2 to two attributes, humans were only getting +2 to one. At the same time humans didn't have much going for them except you got to pick one extra feat and skill to train in. Where as other races would get two preset skills and a race feat.
The idea always has seemed to be that Humans have access to everything but not as good at their roles as other races. Want to play a fighter? Okay you can add +2 to your Str, you are now a fighter. Wizard? +2 to INT... so on and so forth. But while that is what they are doing in this edition they are taking away the additional benefits such as race skills and race feats that humans at one point had.
I'm sorry, but I'm just not following you. What do you mean "no one knows what to do with humans"? What do you mean "humans didn't have much going for them"? Specifically about the extra feat and skill, you know that, while the other races got +2 to two skills, the Human got +5 to one, right?
I think you're saying that you want Humans to get other stuff, and I agree with that (check out the racial design thread for a quick write-up of how I might do them), but what you're saying doesn't seem to relate or make any sense...?
I'm sorry, but I'm just not following you. What do you mean "no one knows what to do with humans"? What do you mean "humans didn't have much going for them"? Specifically about the extra feat and skill, you know that, while the other races got +2 to
The issue isn't game balance, the slightly higher stats will not make a huge difference in 5e. The problem is one of perception - that human is hardier than a dwarf, or more agile that an elf - that's just not right! I tend to agree. I think giving the other races+2 to a single stat or +2, -1 will work fine if humans get +1 to all their stats (no +2) but I'd probably prefer +1 to 4 stats of your choice and a racial poower or two, or +1 to all saves with no bonuses to stats and a racial power.
The issue isn't game balance, the slightly higher stats will not make a huge difference in 5e. The problem is one of perception - that human is hardier than a dwarf, or more agile that an elf - that's just not right! I tend to agree. I think givin
Just give humans the abillity to boost any one stat by the same amount that the other races boost their stat, an extra trained skill, and a feat from a specialty other than the one they chose.
oh wait, we have to think about people that aren't use feats or skills...
ok. Give humans a bonus to two stats instead of one, or just give them a plus one to each stat. That plus a +2 in one stat is just too much.
Just give humans the abillity to boost any one stat by the same amount that the other races boost their stat, an extra trained skill, and a feat from a specialty other than the one they chose. oh wait, we have to think about people that aren't use fe
Just give humans the abillity to boost any one stat by the same amount that the other races boost their stat, an extra trained skill, and a feat from a specialty other than the one they chose.
oh wait, we have to think about people that aren't use feats or skills...
ok. Give humans a bonus to two stats instead of one, or just give them a plus one to each stat. That plus a +2 in one stat is just too much.
We can just give Humans their own unique features without resorting to feats and skills. Here's a rough example that I just posted in the racial design thread:
HUMAN TRAITS Ability Score Adjustment: One starting ability score of your choice increases by 1. Size: Medium Speed: 30 feet. Heroism: When you make an attack roll, a check, or a saving throw, you can always reroll a natural 1. Humanity: When you help another creature, the creature can instead gain advantage for the next relevant attack roll or saving throw that it makes before your next turn. In addition, twice per day, you can help another creature as part of another action. Spirit:When you have advantage on a saving throw and you roll the same number on both d20, you can reroll one of the d20. Versatility: Choose one ability score other than the one benefitting from your racial ability score adjustment. When you make a check using that ability score, you gain a +1 bonus to the check. Languages: You can speak, read, and write Common and one other language of your choice.
We can just give Humans their own unique features without resorting to feats and skills. Here's a rough example that I just posted in the racial design thread:HUMAN TRAITSAbility Score Adjustment: One starting ability score of your choice increases b
I'm sorry, but I'm just not following you. What do you mean "no one knows what to do with humans"? What do you mean "humans didn't have much going for them"? Specifically about the extra feat and skill, you know that, while the other races got +2 to two skills, the Human got +5 to one, right?
I think you're saying that you want Humans to get other stuff, and I agree with that (check out the racial design thread for a quick write-up of how I might do them), but what you're saying doesn't seem to relate or make any sense...?
The basic idea is a player I can do anything with Humans. They don't have much going for them because they are supposed to be the back-up race for a class. Dwarf fighters are more powerful than human fights, but Humans are second string for every class. Elf is the Wizard class, Halfling Rogue. Human is everything because they are customizable.
Humans got these added bonuses last edition, in the Next Edition humans have lost this customizability in exchange for all these attribute bonuses(Currently). Which might be good occasionally but the player loses the ability to customize Humans.
I hope that I cleared up my viewpoint for you.
The basic idea is a player I can do anything with Humans. They don't have much going for them because they are supposed to be the back-up race for a class. Dwarf fighters are more powerful than human fights, but Humans are second string for every cla
No offense Trance-Zg, but why do I care if my Fighter has a 10 or 8 Cha? Or a 12 Int for that matter?
Depends upon how much RP is in your games. For ex; I play in one game where a 10 cha is alot better than an 8 - no matter what the mechanical +/- might be.
Depends upon how much RP is in your games.For ex; I play in one game where a 10 cha is alot better than an 8 - no matter what the mechanical +/- might be.
Right now humans are more durable than dwarfs, more agile than elves and will be stronger that half orcs.
This is not the truth. Humans can be more durable than dwarfs or more agile than elves. They are not Jack-of-all-trade at all. Individually, humans cannot be good in every domains.
Other races benefit from specialization. They will have access to more special options regarding their favored classes, like in the editions before (racial feats, racial prestige classes, racial paragon paths, racial substitution levels). Especially elves and dwarves. This time, the devs have just anticipated the problem .
In 3rd and 4th edition, non human races were always the best mechanical choice for any class.
This is not the truth.Humans can be more durable than dwarfs or more agile than elves.They are not Jack-of-all-trade at all. Individually, humans cannot be good in every domains.Other races benefit from specialization. They will have access to more s
Humans can be more durable than dwarfs or more agile than elves. They are not Jack-of-all-trade at all. Individually, humans cannot be good in every domains.
Continue with that line.
If both a human wizard and a high elf wizard are lucky enough to roll an 18 to assign to Intelligence, the human is no better off than the elf in that regard.
The elf adds its +1 racial bonus to Int, then the +1 from the wizard class for a starting Int of 20. Since the starting cap for stats is 20, the human can use his +2 racial bump for Int, but then he's forced to take the +2 to Con for the wizard, which still leaves the human with a 20 Intelligence, equivalent to the high elf, but probably more hardy.
Sure, not everyone's going to have an 18 to start. But, it's not like it's unheard of. And, it's not like the smartest/strongest/quickest/wisest/most hardy/most charismatic human will be any more smart/strong/quick/wise/hardy/charismatic than the most whatever from another race that exemplifies the stat.
Continue with that line.If both a human wizard and a high elf wizard are lucky enough to roll an 18 to assign to Intelligence, the human is no better off than the elf in that regard.The elf adds its +1 racial bonus to Int, then the +1 from the wizard
I agree, there is little reason to pick anything but Human, but they are also the most boring.
Really? No one in our group did so. With the pitiful amount of hp, the dwarves +1 AC or upped HD looked much better than a +1 to stats they weren't using.
Lets go down the races. Dwarf: lets you live longer. Then they get a weapon buff. Nuff said... Elf: Upped weapon damage, keen senses for when the rogue is out of arms reach and you don't want to not surprised., and either free cantrip or easier hide... So looking pretty sweet for rogues, DEX fighter or people that don't like ambushes. Halfling: least exciting but gives a few rogue/DEX fighter options. Human +1 to all stats... Lets be honest, is anyone REALLY going to need more than 3 stats? Wizard need INT, DEX and CON. A fighter needs Strength/DEX and CON. A cleric WIS, CON and maybe DEX. A rogue DEX and CON.
So the human MIGHT get a +1 bonus to their main stat mods and MIGHT get a +1 to saves... Somehow I'm not impressed
Really? No one in our group did so. With the pitiful amount of hp, the dwarves +1 AC or upped HD looked much better than a +1 to stats they weren't using.Lets go down the races.Dwarf: lets you live longer. Then they get a weapon buff. Nuff said...Elf
In 3rd and 4th edition, non human races were always the best mechanical choice for any class.
In 3rd maybe.
Not in 4th.
4th ed The extra feat is nice, and getting a extra at will and feat is really good for some hybrid builds as well as having the extra skill and bonus to NADs, so for hybrids humans are good for that, a couple of classes have not very important secondary stats so humans can be best for them. Aswell as the fact that humans have great racial feats and a good paragon class makes them one of the best races for every single class in the game,by one of the best i mean 1st-3rd, and the best for a variety of more specific builds.
In 3rd maybe. Not in 4th.[/quote] 4th edThe extra feat is nice, and getting a extra at will and feat is really good for some hybrid builds as well as having the extra skill and bonus to NADs, so for hybrids humans are good for that, a couple of class
In 4th humans where good at all classes, and the best overall choice for several them. Dwarves came in at a close second in terms of overall class flexibility.
Advantages of the current stat gain aside, I don't like how humans are currently stated in next, mostly beacuse they are boring.
I am personaly a fan of the idea of +2 to one stat, and having some unique other bonuses.
In 4th humans where good at all classes, and the best overall choice for several them. Dwarves came in at a close second in terms of overall class flexibility.Advantages of the current stat gain aside, I don't like how humans are currently stated in
I really really like the human bonus and would hate to see it turn into some annoying special ability.
In an ideal world, race would be purely cosmetic and give you anything beyond roleplaying advantages. In a realistic world, just leave the races as they are.
I really really like the human bonus and would hate to see it turn into some annoying special ability.In an ideal world, race would be purely cosmetic and give you anything beyond roleplaying advantages. In a realistic world, just leave the races as
Yeah, I'm definitely going to mention how boring the human is when the next survey comes around. If it worked for the fighter, hopefully it'll work for the human.
I do think we need to get away from the days where Humans were a flexible stat boost and a more of something that everyone got anyways.
If humans are supposed to be hardy, passionate, and adaptable, I definitely want to see racial traits that make them feel hardy, passionate, and adaptable.
Yeah, I'm definitely going to mention how boring the human is when the next survey comes around. If it worked for the fighter, hopefully it'll work for the human. I do think we need to get away from the days where Humans were a flexible stat boost an
i'm thinking that normal humans don't get this bonus to all stats
it's kind of implied in the human section of Races.
so it just means that the PC humans are quite extraordinary people.
also, every "quality" a race has is not wholly represented by stats. for exemple, dwarven resilience... hp are from CON, yes, but what about immunity to poison? no human is born like that.
I remember in the bard's hanbook of 2e, there was a line on musical talent that explained it all (just for those who don't know/remember, in 2e, skill checks were made by trying to roll under your related stat on a d20).
What was being said was that a low DEX bard would always be better than anybody non-bard no matter the stat. So a 12 dex bard might do some errors while playing but would still do a better performance than let's say, a 16 DEX fighter who might be more proficient, technically) (and for those who play music here, you know you might be a technical vituoso but still not deliver a good performance. I think it apply to everything art-related)
so then, an elf would always be more graceful than a human, (unless someone decide to play a crippled elf). A dwarf will always outdrink a human or an elf (unless it's feywine?) etc etc etc. stat don't matter that much except when you have to roll a check/attack/save
i'm thinking that normal humans don't get this bonus to all statsit's kind of implied in the human section of Races.so it just means that the PC humans are quite extraordinary people.also, every "quality" a race has is not wholly represented by stats
DDN is supposed to be drawing more from heroic myth and classic fantasy. With this in mind...
Humans are by far the most common race in almost every major fantasy setting. What do humans share in common within a lot of these settings?
- Full range of human emotion - Can do anything they put their minds to - Very heroic - Inspirational - They are almost always a (if not THE) leader/hero. - Tend to build Empires/Kingdoms/Civilization
Evil humans in these settings display the same traits but use them for evil.
How can you take these tropes and turn them into mechanics?
HUMANS
Traits: As a human, you have all the following racial traits:
Size: Medium.
Speed: 30 feet.
Ability Score Adjustment: One starting ability score of your choice increases by 2, and another ability score increases by 1.
Adaptable: Twice per day you can gain or give an ally an advantage on any check.
Dedicated: You gain an additional skill of your choice
Languages: You can speak, read, and write Common and One Other Language.
DDN is supposed to be drawing more from heroic myth and classic fantasy. With this in mind...Humans are by far the most common race in almost every major fantasy setting. What do humans share in common within a lot of these settings? - Full range of
In 3rd and 4th edition, non human races were always the best mechanical choice for any class.
In 3rd maybe.
Not in 4th.
4th ed The extra feat is nice, and getting a extra at will and feat is really good for some hybrid builds as well as having the extra skill and bonus to NADs, so for hybrids humans are good for that, a couple of classes have not very important secondary stats so humans can be best for them. Aswell as the fact that humans have great racial feats and a good paragon class makes them one of the best races for every single class in the game,by one of the best i mean 1st-3rd, and the best for a variety of more specific builds.
yep. Like I said in another thread, humans made fantastic wizards right out of the PHB, and are good (blue in handbooks) for nearly every class in the game, if not great (handbook skyblue).
In 3rd maybe. Not in 4th.[/quote] 4th edThe extra feat is nice, and getting a extra at will and feat is really good for some hybrid builds as well as having the extra skill and bonus to NADs, so for hybrids humans are good for that, a couple of class
