So after a few big threads there is clearly a difference in opinion about how many hit points a PC should have. So why not make them modular? Here's my suggestions.
Gritty: The world is deadly. A single stray arrow can spell your doom. For those who want more of a challenge. Your character may not survive the first adventure. Starting HP: Con mod + 1 Hit die. HP per level: 1 Hit die. Death: Negitive 1/2 your Con score + 1/2 level.
Normal: The world is dangerous. You can survive a bit of bad luck, or a poor choice, but don't expect to survive it twice. For those who like a moderate challenge. Starting HP: Con Score + 1 Hit die. HP per level: Con mod + 1 Hit die. Death: Negitive your Con Score + level.
Heroic: The world is for exploring. You can survive a bit of punishment, allowing you to be more ambious, and less cautious. Your character should survive long enough to retire. Starting HP: Con Score + 2 Maximum Hit dice. HP per level: Con Mod + 2 Maximum hit dice. Death: Negitive 2x your Con Score + 2x your level.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
So after a few big threads there is clearly a difference in opinion about how many hit points a PC should have. So why not make them modular? Here's my suggestions.
Gritty: The world is deadly. A single stray arrow can spell your doom. For those who want more of a challenge and less story. Rarely do PC's have backstories, since life expectancy is short. Starting HP: Con mod + 1 Hit die. HP per level: 1 Hit die. Death: Negitive your Con mod.
Normal: The world is dangerous. You can survive a bit of bad luck, or a poor choice, but don't expect to survive it twice. For those who like a mix of challenge and story. Starting HP: Con Score + 1 Hit die. HP per level: Con mod + 1 Hit die. Death: Negitive your Con Score.
Heroic: The world is for exploring. You can survive a bit of punishment, allowing you to be more ambious, and less cautious. For those who want to focus more on the story. Starting HP: Con Score + 2 Maximum Hit dice. HP per level: Con Mod + 2 Maximum hit dice. Death: Negitive 2x your Con Score.
Thoughts? Adjustments?
I like the idea a lot! I don't think any sort of implication should be made that higher hp is for groups MORE interested in story, or more invested in their characters, though.
Mechanically, any reason to not maxing the hit die for 'gritty' or 'normal' ?
Yep, given the extremes wanted by people, this seems to be an obvious choice for modular rules. I would remove "maximized" from your rules and just let that be an option you can apply to any hp module's rules - just a little box of text somewhere that if the group feels they want more hp at start they can maximize the HD and if they want more per level, feel free to maximize gained HD as well.
Also, I have to agree with drzach, the comments about less/more story are incredibly insulting. Remove that.
I like the idea a lot! I don't think any sort of implication should be made that higher hp is for groups MORE interested in story, or more invested in their characters, though.
With increased mortality, the amount of time you spend with any paticular character is reduced. Thus the time you have to spend on the story is reduced.
I mean, why spend an hour making a backstory for someone who has a good chance of dying the frist shot of the first battle?
It wasn't ment to be offensive though, so i'll take it out.
Mechanically, any reason to not maxing the hit die for 'gritty' or 'normal' ?
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
I like the idea a lot! I don't think any sort of implication should be made that higher hp is for groups MORE interested in story, or more invested in their characters, though.
With increased mortality, the amount of time you spend with any paticular character is reduced. Thus the time you have to spend on the story is reduced.
I mean, why spend an hour making a backstory for someone who has a good chance of dying the frist shot of the first battle?
It wasn't ment to be offensive though, so i'll take it out.
Mechanically, any reason to not maxing the hit die for 'gritty' or 'normal' ?
That's how it is now.
I think treating the packet-as-is for 'gritty' is plenty gritty enough! Rolling hp at first level could be a level below gritty -- call it "Housecats are Lethal" in a nod to editions past
As for the more hp = more story stuff, you're just jumping to conclusions about players... The amount of time I've invested in a character's story has never really varied, because I really, truly enjoy that part. I'm sure many, many players of 3.5E and prior editions feel the same way (which is why I found "oh you just want Fantasy Vietnam," a phrased used in other threads, to be incorrect as well as a little offensive.) Why spend an hour (or hours) making a backstory, bouncing ideas back and forth off the DM? Because it's fun, and enriching to the game, for me. To me, the feeling of real risk made the characters that much MORE valuable, not more "disposable."
Like you say, the best idea is not to cause offense or promote one style of play over another. My personal opinion is that "Heroic" mode is more like "Easy," but "Heroic" is a positive term, like using "Gritty" over "Grognard."
I think treating the packet-as-is for 'gritty' is plenty gritty enough! Rolling hp at first level could be a level below gritty -- call it "Housecats are Lethal" in a nod to editions past
As for the more hp = more story stuff, you're just jumping to conclusions about players... The amount of time I've invested in a character's story has never really varied, because I really, truly enjoy that part. I'm sure many, many players of 3.5E and prior editions feel the same way (which is why I found "oh you just want Fantasy Vietnam," a phrased used in other threads, to be incorrect as well as a little offensive.) Why spend an hour (or hours) making a backstory, bouncing ideas back and forth off the DM? Because it's fun, and enriching to the game, for me. To me, the feeling of real risk made the characters that much MORE valuable, not more "disposable."
Like you say, the best idea is not to cause offense or promote one style of play over another. My personal opinion is that "Heroic" mode is more like "Easy," but "Heroic" is a positive term, like using "Gritty" over "Grognard."
I didn't mean "if you like stories, you have to play heroic".
It was just a warning that if your going to play gritty, you shouldn't get too attached to the character, cause it's probably going to die. And if your the type to get attached, you should play the less leathal version.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
I think treating the packet-as-is for 'gritty' is plenty gritty enough! Rolling hp at first level could be a level below gritty -- call it "Housecats are Lethal" in a nod to editions past
As for the more hp = more story stuff, you're just jumping to conclusions about players... The amount of time I've invested in a character's story has never really varied, because I really, truly enjoy that part. I'm sure many, many players of 3.5E and prior editions feel the same way (which is why I found "oh you just want Fantasy Vietnam," a phrased used in other threads, to be incorrect as well as a little offensive.) Why spend an hour (or hours) making a backstory, bouncing ideas back and forth off the DM? Because it's fun, and enriching to the game, for me. To me, the feeling of real risk made the characters that much MORE valuable, not more "disposable."
Like you say, the best idea is not to cause offense or promote one style of play over another. My personal opinion is that "Heroic" mode is more like "Easy," but "Heroic" is a positive term, like using "Gritty" over "Grognard."
I didn't mean "if you like stories, you have to play heroic".
It was just a warning that if your going to play gritty, you shouldn't get too attached to the character, cause it's probably going to die. And if your the type to get attached, you should play the less leathal version.
How would you phrase it?
Gritty: The world is deadly. A single stray arrow can spell your doom. For those who want more risk, as characters are more likely to die. Why not just that? No reason to bring story playstyle into it.
I just don't think there's a connection between hp and wanting to focus more on the story. Following that logic, shouldn't we just give characters 5000 bonus hp at level 1 if you want the best story possible?** For many, the risk of death IS part of the story. Even PC death can be part of the story, a big part.
**Edit: Or maybe include an optional ritual called "Save Point," performable by any class, with or without Ritual Casting.
I think treating the packet-as-is for 'gritty' is plenty gritty enough! Rolling hp at first level could be a level below gritty -- call it "Housecats are Lethal" in a nod to editions past
As for the more hp = more story stuff, you're just jumping to conclusions about players... The amount of time I've invested in a character's story has never really varied, because I really, truly enjoy that part. I'm sure many, many players of 3.5E and prior editions feel the same way (which is why I found "oh you just want Fantasy Vietnam," a phrased used in other threads, to be incorrect as well as a little offensive.) Why spend an hour (or hours) making a backstory, bouncing ideas back and forth off the DM? Because it's fun, and enriching to the game, for me. To me, the feeling of real risk made the characters that much MORE valuable, not more "disposable."
Like you say, the best idea is not to cause offense or promote one style of play over another. My personal opinion is that "Heroic" mode is more like "Easy," but "Heroic" is a positive term, like using "Gritty" over "Grognard."
I didn't mean "if you like stories, you have to play heroic".
It was just a warning that if your going to play gritty, you shouldn't get too attached to the character, cause it's probably going to die. And if your the type to get attached, you should play the less leathal version.
How would you phrase it?
False. It's when you are attached to your character that you fight and struggle not to make him die. That's the moment when the gritty is more funny than heroic in my opinion. If I play a character I care nothing, I do not even care if he dies, so I don't have the fun I want from gritty game.
