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Locked: Why I wouldn't recommend D&D Next to new players?
10 months ago  ::  Aug 20, 2012 - 2:45AM #1
EnerlaNet
Date Joined: May 18, 2010
Posts: 189

With D&D 3 we got streamlining, we tried to please veteran players, who tried to reduce the work involved with playing D&D / AD&D. Things changed. Instead of using Core Rules CD-Rom for 15 minutes for characte creation, we visit forums, research build options, and optimize characters, often for days. We tried to make combat faster by reducing the amound of math you do. Yet, currently a combat round takes more time than in 1E or 2E. Much more time. And you do more math to compare your options. And at the same time, creating background stories for PCs, creating maps, NPCs, their stories, stories for your adventure, etc. as DM is just as time consuming.


D&D failed to meet two of its goals for 3E, 3.5E, 4E, and Essentials. And often you can't just jump into the game when you want, so still assembling groups, finding more players is just as bad as before. If it isn't even worse due to the more work involved. The approach WOTC / Hasbro took with streamlining is risky. Why? Because all you tried to do is to streamline combat. And forgot about core value of D&D: Roleplaying. You designed the game to revolve about combat and maybe skill challenges. Forgot about the life of the adventurers. D&D doesn't speak about what our character would see, what our characters would feel, how would our character think?


We forgot about the flowers in the field, we forgot about the sweet mead they enjoy in the tavern. And D&D is streamlined so well, that while in AD&D 2, we spent about 15% of our time with preparation 20% with compbat, and 75% with experiencing the wonderful worlds described in setting books, and we roleplayed. Now if I visit some store where I can play D&D, I spend about 40% of my time reseacrhing builds, optimization options, new abilities, about 15% with actual characer design. 40% with combat / skill challenges, which are about using the system to our benefit.


5% with an empty and void point of light setting.


At this rate, I can compare D&D with Wargames, with PC based strategy games, etc. light story and set of tactical challenges. But I wouldn't compare it to PC based RPGs like Mass Effect 3, Skyrim, etc. because D&D offers less. Less story, less immersion, less roleplaying.


So if some newbie comes to me, and tells me, he wants to try tabletop RPGs because they offer more depth, immersion and story than video games, I would look elsewhere. Because the structure of D&D game is designed around series of challenges.


As experienced roleplayers we can rape the system and try to roleplay there. Hey, we can do that with or without a system, and a good DM can turn even chess into a roleplaying game, but it isn't a redeeming factor. If you go to a store to try D&D in an encounters group, you won't roleplay much.


And if and when some young student says, he / she wants to experience the stories he / she read in some novels firsthand, when a newbie wants to make his / her first life like character, D&D will be a huge disappointment. Not because of the preparation time. But because if a such newbie would want Dungeon Crawl, there is Diablo. Newbies aren't attached to D&D brand, so they could and should seek Dungeon Crawl elsewhere.


But they get a new rulebook in hand. 


Where nimble and graceful races get less dexterity than humans. Hey, a nible and graceful elf isn't much different in racial averages from a bulky dwarf in terms of dexterity. Yet, a human is 1.1666 point higher in dex average, so its likely that a human has higher dex modifier, and performs better. 

Come on, you create a graceful elf, as you imagine her based on novels, and try to be connected toyour character, etc. and try to roleplay. You go and try D&D.


Your first surprise will be that you will compete with the "clumsy dwarf" who just wanted some dex for AC. Ouch.


The next surprise will be that you will be considerably weaker in this aspect than the "average joe" human, so D&D doesn't represent your character. You look at what happened. Others choosen dex for AC, you choosen it because you are a graceful elf. Yet, you have no chance to ever catch up with the human who isn't even focused on dex.


You see that due to higher bonus of humans, and because people will value their dex for system reasons, in D&D you will never be able to create the elf, who "shines" in dex based task to reflect their natural grace. 


And as we see what would happen if we would run contested tests by the book: If your characters compete to impress a lady, who "ties" in a strenght check achieves nothing. Why? Because even if they are strong, the fact they are in a contest prevents them from doing the most basic things. If you try to get a ring, and you tie... You don't just arrive at same time. But nothing happened, you didn't even lose. - So we either forget this part of core mechanics, or we just laugh at how bad D&D is, and forget it.


Whats worse. When a newbie tries the encounters adventure ran somewhere, what more happens? Well, a newbie won't have an optimized character, so will be constantly outshined, will have a negative experience, and will hear how builds, etc. are important, and will criticized for character choice. And will see that there he / she should stick to builds more than in World of Warcraft or Neverwinter Nights, or Skyrim, or Mass Effect. So in addition to feeling "disconnected" from the character and setting due to D&D rules, our newbie will also see that "PC games offered more freedom in creating characters".


And most encounters sessions are short, but have a somewhat rigid but combat focused adventure, so our player will only see how a player in D&D has to use abilities designed in the book, so the endless freedom, and room for creativity wouldn't materialize. Yet, we will see grid based movements, instead freedom in movement PC games offer, so D&D would introduce itself with less freedom.


Less graphics. Less story. Less freedom in when to play, how to play. Less involvement. Less positive feedback.


D&D would be seen as an inferior product in each and every aspect.


It would mean: D&D would lose some old players due to both usual IRL reasons (No more party, no more time, etc), and to rapidly switching editions (high expenses, feeling next edition won't last forever), and fail to get most of the potential new players.


And as D&D would be a risky recommendation for a first game, many blogs, web sites, etc. would recommend Pathfinder, Vampire, Shadowrun 4, etc. for new gamers interested in roleplaying. And when new players start to focus on values presented by other setting, enjoy freedom, immersion, depth, etc. they wouldn't consider moving to D&D.


As for a veteran who got accustomed to many games, I see what D&D offers to me. A big brand name. A shrinking playerbase, which is already smaller than the playerbase of Pathfinder for example, so not even the biggest one. I see less immersion, less depth, less freedom, less fun, more issues. Why would I choose an inferior product?


You have many fans here, they have brand loyalty. They love some of your settings so much that they rape D&D system to roleplay in there. But you can't build a future on brand loyalty alone, and it is even harder if you erode that brand loyalty with inferior products.


You have a big, colorful website. Playtest dockets. Everything else. But you haven't even offered me a single selling point why should I choose D&D. And you don't have a selling point for your vision of tabletop RPGs either. You use the streamlining idea like a mantra, but most see how empty is that, and it isn't a selling point that would make people buy D&D.

If you don't have a selling point, you don't see the strength of RPGs, then I can speak about lack of vision and scope. And if I feel this, I have to ask: If you don't know what would turn a roleplaying game good, what would make me want to play it, how would you build an enjoyable game for me? After all: if you don't know what makes roleplaying games good, you can't focus on these values when designing rules. So your design decisions aren't backed up with solid reasoning, with a vision.


And this is a point where I see it pointless to even consider buying D&D products from the Next edition.


I see your Q&A. People ask about how skills are assigned to backgrounds. They feel this way they wouldn't be able to choose their skills freely from the skill list (considering their characters personality, class and cross class skills, training options) but would be limited to narrow categories. Ask about it.


And the leader of the development team posts a rant about how inventing your own skills shouldn't be core mechanic. A rant where he shows, he doesn't understand why people want to choose freely from the big skill list, what the issue is about. He shows he doesn't understand we want to create our imagined character. He shows that he is clueless about what roleplaying is.


D&D Next seems to be an inferior product developed by clueless folks at this point.

I don't like D&D 4. You can see why. But at this point I have to warn you: There are no reasons for players to choose D&D Next over D&D 4, and with this D&D Next will fail to draw in enough new players or veterans who avoided 4E. But due to a too early new edition it can lose a lot of current players.


So if you are clueless about how to make D&D better, stick with 4E. Your players will apreciate the years they can spend with using the edition they already enjoy, the value they can squeze out from purchases. And you can still sell plenty of material for D&D 4 / Essentials. 

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10 months ago  ::  Aug 20, 2012 - 3:23AM #2
Aehrlon68
Date Joined: May 24, 2012
Posts: 177
this is a wall of text & largely opinion & speculation.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion.  But this post should be in the general discussion not the DM Playtest Forum.  Also, I believe they are looking for constructive criticizm more than a scathing judgement.  It's fine if you don't like D&D Next; this really isn't the right thread for you to voice it or go Trolling...
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10 months ago  ::  Aug 20, 2012 - 4:40AM #3
OrwellianHaggis
Date Joined: Dec 20, 2011
Posts: 392
"Why I Would Not Recommend This Post To Players"

I know it rarely helps to say this but what the hell...

Calm down.

You can taste the anger behind some of these statements. As for its content, sorry but I disagree with a lot of this and more importantly how your putting it forward. A lot of the complaints are based around different skill level players and their interactions (such as the new player being criticised for not being optimised) and this points to a breakdown with the players and their attitudes to the game, as a DM you need to discourage anything of the sort.

Ill avoid spending too much time on this, just finishing up with saying that this much bile should be kept off the forums until WotC release a final version of the game you hate. 
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10 months ago  ::  Aug 20, 2012 - 4:48AM #4
ShadeRaven
Date Joined: Jul 15, 2008
Posts: 1,417
Funny, but in comparison to 3.5 and 4E, I have seen a lot more roleplay, character development, and "slowing down to enjoy the flowers" in Next already.

And this is for playtest sessions with characters they know they aren't keeping.

I was hoping to read some well thought out, unbiased thoughts of someone who's given these playtest packets a real shot, not the angry rumblings of someone clearly with an axe to grind.
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10 months ago  ::  Aug 20, 2012 - 5:28AM #5
EnerlaNet
Date Joined: May 18, 2010
Posts: 189

Aug 20, 2012 -- 4:48AM, ShadeRaven wrote:

Funny, but in comparison to 3.5 and 4E, I have seen a lot more roleplay, character development, and "slowing down to enjoy the flowers" in Next already.



When the streamlineing problem started? Exactly with 3E. So it isn't surprising that the game is similar to 4E.


You speak about character development, when character speciality makes advancement linear and removes ability to react to unforeseen circumstances.


But lets see more: You speak about playtest characters they don't keep...

Playtest characters they will "discard in a week" anyways. If you beta tested online games, you know that in a beta test people always take time to help each other out, often even roleplay, enjoy the game. The problem is past release they will compete, and then things change.


If D&D Next wants to be successful, or even acceptable, it needs to offer more than this difference. 


Current Open Playtest is good for marketing, but not for anything else. Months ago, I said: If the structure of the game is already decided, then they won't be able to attract people who find this structure repulsive. If they want feedback, don't start with a single solid adventure, but present different options about how the game can work.


It didn't happen.


The structure of game is similar to 4E. And a lot of players who didn't like 4E said 4E isn't really D&D nor RPG anymore. Come on, saying that when Next isn't bloated with product yet, it is faster and when you don't need to optimize as you don't keep your characters some players might even roleplay a bit more than in 4E won't change that image. 


The feedback they get here is mixed and probably won't change significant things, so it is pointless if we see about influencing the game design.


Guess why you have playtest? Why you have "last weekends" betas in most MMOs?


Because:


1st: this way you feel you worked on the game, and gets you attached to brand - pure marketing


2nd: in beta, when people don't lose anything by helping you out, by roleplaying, etc. as they have nothing they can keep, the game shows in a more favorable light, and it influences oppinions and early player reviews


They teach this in the school, and you celebrate that when less than 5% of the "options" you will be use in game at its peak, it gives you time, because you don't even try to imagine the game with the options Wizards will constantly try to sell. And this false image makes you buy the game. 


And as they "offer new options" to "counter some balance issues" you will buy fix after fix seeing how "good" they are to the game, and you get the same bloatware as ever.


In this state they can't get people who stoped buying D&D because dungeon focused streamling back. They won't get the players who actually want to roleplay.


But with this beta they can trick you into buying the game. 



@Aehrlon68: When they said playtest and its feedback system including this forum will be the place to criticize even general direction they took with system, they made it clear it is the place. Sadly when their core approach is the issue, it isn't possible to suggest small fixes. The current playtest system fails to support playing styles they plan to support and fails to bring back old players together. 


Why? Because they simply fail to understand what such players want.


And when they said that such concerns shouldn't come before playtest, they risked getting the feedback they get: Scrap the current project, replace developers, start thinking about what people will want from D&D, how to get there, build on that information, as this junk won't work. They took their risk, and now they are free to enjoy it. 


@OrwellianHaggis: Sadly when someone wants to try a game, they seek some group they can join for the first time. Why? Because he doesn't have a party, a DM, etc. yet. Because they want to try the game before they decide if it worths investing money and time in it. And it would be hard for a group of newbies, with their newbie DM to start adjusting rules to support the way they want to play based on experience. So with a group of newbies it is even worse. 

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10 months ago  ::  Aug 20, 2012 - 5:49AM #6
OrwellianHaggis
Date Joined: Dec 20, 2011
Posts: 392
Ill be kind and take out the one point I agree on...

The support not just for a new player, but for new groups who form to try out the game is laughable and huge problems arise in that. I have said in other posts, my entry to D&D was painful as I have no established groups near and finally it ended up with me and a friend dragging our partners into the game. However our opinion match ends there.

Your heavy bias against WotC is just causing you to pop out tenuous reasons at best as to why 5e wont work. I find that the media coverage of 5e (and in the business world this playtest is a VERY big thing) is drawing a lot of attention of new players and while the playtest itself will be a bit complex for new players it has the sort of "light fluff" that is very enticing. I personally loved the simple race descriptions far more in 5e than previous. As for how it will be marketed, it can be nothing but speculation for now.

... so ....

What do you like about the playtest packet? 
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10 months ago  ::  Aug 20, 2012 - 5:50AM #7
ShadeRaven
Date Joined: Jul 15, 2008
Posts: 1,417

Aug 20, 2012 -- 5:28AM, EnerlaNet wrote:

You speak about character development, when character speciality makes advancement linear and removes ability to react to unforeseen circumstances.

The structure of game is similar to 4E. And a lot of players who didn't like 4E said 4E isn't really D&D nor RPG anymore. Come on, saying that when Next isn't bloated with product yet, it is faster and when you don't need to optimize as you don't keep your characters some players might even roleplay a bit more than in 4E won't change that image. 



Gosh darn it, I am totally getting trolled here, aren't I?  Anyway....

Advancement isn't linear, as I meantioned in the other thread.  You can learn new skills and there certainly seems to be indications of multiclassing already in what is the early stages of development.

Sounds like you want to be able to "respec" at will.  Faction change?  Race change?  Probably want that, too.  Yes, it's great when you have a system that allows you to reinvent yourself every level or even at any time.

For me, though, I kind of like D&D being about making choices and living with them.  Adapting and going forward with what you can change in the future, but not reinventing the past.

"The structure of the game is similar to 4E":  !!!  Seriously, dude.... what are you smoking?  I still play 4E to this day and Next/5E barely resembles 4E at all.  I has *much more* an old school AD&D feel to it than anything else.  I mean, wow... you will lose all credibility with that assertion alone.  Really.  You are just trolling here, aren't you?

Finally, yes, maybe they are "tricking us into buying this game" by pretending to listen to feedback. I don't believe it.  I've already seen some tweaks and changes, not to mention the certainty that they are listening to feedback on things such as starting hit points, etc.  Believe what you want.  Not saying you are wrong, but simply that I don't agree with you and I won't until I see real evidence that we are just "playtesting a finished product" as you suggest.  No.  I suspect we are seeing 5E truly in the developmental stages into refinement.
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10 months ago  ::  Aug 20, 2012 - 6:28AM #8
603
Date Joined: Aug 10, 2009
Posts: 1,112
I think the "structure" he's referring to is the lack of skill points, Standard Array characters instead of Point Buy, and the general lack of "you take this feat to be able to RP this way" requirements.

In some ways, 3.x and Star Wars Saga Edition hurt roleplaying because you had a Feat for almost everything and as a result needed a Feat to do anything at all. 4e tried to unburden it; there were no roleplaying feats, and thus you didn't need a feat to be able to do anything. The mechanical parts of the rules focused on combat so people wouldn't force roleplay into a tiny box.

Case in point, the first 4e game I DMed was almost all roleplay. They were in town for a big festival, which was designed to introduce the local factions. The Lord Mayor of the next town dropped in looking for her favorite beer, one of the cultists from the mountains above town got drunk under the table, and someone got tired of the NPC bard playing emo music and accidentally wired his amp to explode (rolled a 1 on Arcana) when he took a restroom break. You wouldn't have that in a system designed completely for combat.
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10 months ago  ::  Aug 20, 2012 - 6:38AM #9
ShadeRaven
Date Joined: Jul 15, 2008
Posts: 1,417
Ah.

I never really saw Skills as necessary for roleplaying.  Some augment some roleplaying situations, and others reflect a characters experiences in life that helped mold them.... but as pure RP tools, I just don't like them as a crutch.

Still not totally sure what he's asking for?  He wants feats and skills to determine how you roleplay?  I wouldn't like that myself.
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10 months ago  ::  Aug 20, 2012 - 7:58AM #10
Dragonette
Date Joined: Jul 28, 2011
Posts: 632
Hey folks,

I agree that this is a better fit for D&D Next General Discussion so I'll be moving it over there.

Thanks,

Monica
Monica
Wizards of the Coast Online Community Coordinator
A friendly dragon.
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