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10 months ago ::
Aug 20, 2012 - 2:54PM
#221
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Date Joined:
Apr 21, 2011
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None of which has anything to do with wizards being killed in one hit by a third grader with a wiffle bat.
No, the third graders pet. It wasn't worth the thrid grader's time. 
Lets be honest. There isn't anything that the players can do to avoid the wizard getting KO'd by random average hits no matter how careful they are. The DM is the only one that can do that and it's take houseruling the HP higher or fixing the dice to let him slide.
Yeah, honestly, I don't think anyone I play with misses rolling for hit points, so we'll probably just figure out a good static hit point progression to use, and it won't leave the wizard with the durability of a kid my two year old nephew could bully.
Since we love the random average hit KO question:
Do you think there should ever be a possibility in game that a lucky shot from a weak/average enemy would knock-out a 1st level character?
I'm just not able to look at that question and say "no."
(If the question is rephrased to "outright kill," I have an easier time saying "no.")
Average damage shouldn't one-shot a pc, unless the enemy is specifically supposed to be a dire threat to a PC in the level range they're in. Dragons can one shot really low level PCs, that's fine. Orcs should only do so on a crit, if at all.
an orc is a level 3 monster, by the stipulations of the DMG, same level monsters should be used to fill the xp budget of "normal" encounters, meaning the PC's are also level 3.
an orc swings for 1d12 + 2, if we take half damage as average damage, that would mean an average hit deals 8 damage. as far as i know, at level 3, any character can survive that.
if an orc uses his rage ability however, he can hit on average for 13 damage. if your wizard has only 1 mod in con, that is exactly full health, if your wizar has 2 mod in con it is not enough to kill even him, also add in the fact that rage adds disadvantage to an attack, and the greataxe only gives him a +2 to hit.
i'm not going to throw around percentages here, but i am going to say that on my roll20 interface it took me 6 rolls at disadvantage to hit the pregen's AC (and if the wizard had half cover from shield or any other source of cover it took me 20 rolls, roll20 uses a random number generator, which is by far a more balanced roll than physical dice.
also keep in mind that the orc needs to get into melee range to use his axe, i should hope the wizard makes that difficult for him.
the orcs ranged option is a 1d6+zip bow with no + to hit, so we can count that right out.
if we look at crits, an enraged crit is the highest damage the orc can do (only acheivable by rolling 2 20's mind you, which is a very small chance), an orcs max damage is 19, a fighter or a cleric can survive that at level 20, the squishier classes not so much.
finally, the orcs have to make a hard decision, their + to hit is too small to have disadvantage not hurt them, so if an orc only ever strikes enraged, we can count the possiblity of a crit almost right out, and if they don't then any character at the apropriate level can survive a crit.
seems balanced to me. (and to you, by your own criteria)
-edit-
improper max damage calc, rectified
the cleric and fighter pass it easilly if they have a 2 con mod, the rogue fails it if he has a 1 con mod by 2 hp, if he has a 2 con mod then he survives by 1 hp.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 20, 2012 - 3:25PM
#222
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None of which has anything to do with wizards being killed in one hit by a third grader with a wiffle bat.
No, the third graders pet. It wasn't worth the thrid grader's time.
Lets be honest. There isn't anything that the players can do to avoid the wizard getting KO'd by random average hits no matter how careful they are. The DM is the only one that can do that and it's take houseruling the HP higher or fixing the dice to let him slide.
Yeah, honestly, I don't think anyone I play with misses rolling for hit points, so we'll probably just figure out a good static hit point progression to use, and it won't leave the wizard with the durability of a kid my two year old nephew could bully.
Since we love the random average hit KO question:
Do you think there should ever be a possibility in game that a lucky shot from a weak/average enemy would knock-out a 1st level character?
I'm just not able to look at that question and say "no."
(If the question is rephrased to "outright kill," I have an easier time saying "no.")
Average damage shouldn't one-shot a pc, unless the enemy is specifically supposed to be a dire threat to a PC in the level range they're in. Dragons can one shot really low level PCs, that's fine. Orcs should only do so on a crit, if at all.
an orc is a level 3 monster, by the stipulations of the DMG, same level monsters should be used to fill the xp budget of "normal" encounters, meaning the PC's are also level 3.
[some math]
An orc can still one shot a wizard, within it's normal damage range. Perhaps I should have made it clear that average means more than just the exact number that comes up with you do an average calculation. Average damage is a range of damage right around that number. If the average is right at full hp for a wizard, then it will be normal for that attack to one shot the wizard, so perhaps "normal damage" would have been a better phrase. That should not be the case.
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
I could say anything in D&D is silly though, because it's a silly game and we are silly people.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 20, 2012 - 3:37PM
#223
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Date Joined:
Apr 21, 2011
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you are moving goal posts on me.
but even if we add a range of 2 damage onto either side of the middle point, that means an orc hits for, on average, 6 to 10 damage.
at a 2 con mod, the pregen wizard will have 16 minimum HP (he could roll a 4 for hp, and failing that take his 3 instead).
that stll survives max damage y a good margin, in fact the orc can't even drop him with a crit.
the only way the orc can drop the wizard, the lowest health PC in the game, is by swinging enraged, and with his measly +2 to hit and disadvantage added, it isn't likely he will touch even the wizards pitiful AC.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 20, 2012 - 5:55PM
#224
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Date Joined:
Jul 15, 2008
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Hehe. Some tough DMs out there.
"You talk into a room with 8 kobolds... roll initiative. Looks like they won. They all attack the wizard. Not to just unconciousness, until he's dead-dead."
Apparently, there's no early reaction of "attack what we see first." No, "the dwarven fighter's warcry catches their attention and they attack him."
Instead, it's, "the kobolds have checked your stat blocks and see that the wizard has the worst AC and lowest HPs... they will kill him first then look to see who's second most vulnerable."
Apparently, group order, protective formations, etc., have no bearing on enemies.
I tend to DM in the let's-have-fun mindset. Yeah, maybe some intelligent creatures (which I wouldn't normally include Orcs) would recognize weakness and/or vulnerable threats, but for the most part, the defenders want to defend, so I let them at least start out feeling useful.
Yes, if that Wizard just stepped up and wiped out half the enemies with a burning hands, it'll get their attention and she better hope the Cleric and Fighter are coming to her defense.
And yes, highly intelligent creatures might see a Wizard (or similar) as being a glass cannon, so worth the extra effort to take out early.
But I am not going to be a metagaming DM jerk simply because I *can* take out what *I* know is the biggest threat.
Not my style.
As for Low HPs. Again, if you boost PC Hit Points, you probably have to boost enemy HPs, and suddenly it starts to slow down the game.
For me, I love seeing things like Parry and Protect in the game, and would like to see more vulnerable characters get some defensive options (like Mage Armor or a useful Shield spell). You could keep that air of vulnerability, but allow characters to heroic overcome what looks to be an unlucky strike through clever tactics and smart choices.
I don't really want to go back to where it took 4 rounds to bring down a single monster or player because everyone started with 24 or more HPs. I can already play a version for long, tactical battles at every level.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 20, 2012 - 5:59PM
#225
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Date Joined:
Apr 21, 2011
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Shade.
i thought Shield was by far it's strongest in this itaration, instead of a bland + to AC, it gives you half cover and auto blocks MM, this means you can combine with with other half cover for total cover, not too bad.
if it goes down to +2 AC, then i'd like to see it as a cantrip. s it stands i kind of want to see it as a cantrip now, lol
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10 months ago ::
Aug 20, 2012 - 6:14PM
#226
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Date Joined:
Jul 15, 2008
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Shade.
i thought Shield was by far it's strongest in this itaration, instead of a bland + to AC, it gives you half cover and auto blocks MM, this means you can combine with with other half cover for total cover, not too bad.
if it goes down to +2 AC, then i'd like to see it as a cantrip. s it stands i kind of want to see it as a cantrip now, lol
Half Cover grants only a +2 bonus to AC and DEX Saves. Thus, that 11 or 12 AC Wizard gets only 13 or 14 AC, which probably doesn't save them often enough.
Good ol' Mage Armor was +4? For an hour? Per level? Something like that. It took a weakly Armor Mage and put him at least in the decently protected range.
No, I'd like to see Shield be some reaction that, say, blocks 3d6 damage from any attack. It would be on part with an offensive spell, but be very situational and cost a slot to have that one safety blanket. It'll pull your bacon out of the fire once (hopefully, it could still roll poorly and not be enough), but after that, you better hope your friends are there to protect you from then on. And it certainly won't help you when you decide to walk into the center of the room to get a good shot with your burning hands at all those orcs and it didn't kill them all. Stopped one of the blows, but here comes 3 more.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 20, 2012 - 6:35PM
#227
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Date Joined:
Jun 18, 2001
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Hehe. Some tough DMs out there.
"You talk into a room with 8 kobolds... roll initiative. Looks like they won. They all attack the wizard. Not to just unconciousness, until he's dead-dead."
Apparently, there's no early reaction of "attack what we see first." No, "the dwarven fighter's warcry catches their attention and they attack him."
Instead, it's, "the kobolds have checked your stat blocks and see that the wizard has the worst AC and lowest HPs... they will kill him first then look to see who's second most vulnerable."
Apparently, group order, protective formations, etc., have no bearing on enemies.
I tend to DM in the let's-have-fun mindset. Yeah, maybe some intelligent creatures (which I wouldn't normally include Orcs) would recognize weakness and/or vulnerable threats, but for the most part, the defenders want to defend, so I let them at least start out feeling useful.
Awesome post. Thank you so much.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 20, 2012 - 6:50PM
#228
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2011
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I'm confusewhere the assumption that the Wizard dies because the DM is metagaming part comes from.
Magic is a very real powerful force(unless the setting says otherwise) in the world of D&D. Assuming no one has ever heard of a Wizard and they're not going to take the guy in cloth seriously no matter how many times he shoots fire from his hands, THAT is metagamey as hell.
If I were DMing, sure, they might not know what a Wizard is or why this guy is in plain clothes(to be kind), but HOLY HELL DID YOU SEE HIM JUST FRY HALF OUR SQUAD? KILL HIM BEFORE HE GETS THE REST OF US!
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10 months ago ::
Aug 20, 2012 - 6:55PM
#229
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Date Joined:
Apr 21, 2011
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I'm confusewhere the assumption that the Wizard dies because the DM is metagaming part comes from.
Magic is a very real powerful force(unless the setting says otherwise) in the world of D&D. Assuming no one has ever heard of a Wizard and they're not going to take the guy in cloth seriously no matter how many times he shoots fire from his hands, THAT is metagamey as hell.
If I were DMing, sure, they might not know what a Wizard is or why this guy is in plain clothes(to be kind), but HOLY HELL DID YOU SEE HIM JUST FRY HALF OUR SQUAD? KILL HIM BEFORE HE GETS THE REST OF US!
oh.... so you mean in your game the wizard wasn't dropped first?
thats certainly a diferent tune for you english.
and yeah, i think it's dumb to assume that any creature assumes that a guy in cloth is suddenly a super powerful wizard. magic is prevelent in DnD, but it isn't in every loony that waers a bedsheet, there are a tonne of different things that guy could be, like a harmless scribe, researcher, or somebody that you are escorting.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 20, 2012 - 7:00PM
#230
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2011
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i think it's dumb to assume that any creature assumes that a guy in cloth is suddenly a super powerful wizard.
Watching him shoot a cone fo fire out of his hands fry about 5 of your allies at once doens't make you consider him a threat?
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