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10 months ago ::
Aug 14, 2012 - 8:09AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Dec 21, 2007
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Overall: this version seems to have taken a few big steps back in my opinion, but it is still making progress in the most important places. I'm definitely looking forward to playtesting! Big things I loved: - Specialties, backgrounds: I really like how these mechanics are tied into the game to give classes flavor while also supporting character strength, and also that they are optional. They almost all "feel" right, as well. Seeing this in action is the best innovation since advantage/disadvantage, and I am really looking forward to trying these out and seeing how they continue to evolve. - Races, classes: The basic "feel" for both is very close for me. I appreciate that classes give stat bonuses but that sadly still doesn't mean certain races are too optimal not to choose. Overall I like the racial bonuses a lot and think you're on the right track here (although stat bonuses would be nice if they were more fluid, like class stat bonuses). - Monster stat blocks: Excellent first pass! Very readable, very easy to follow. I hope the full flavor descriptions make it back into the final product, but I feel like they will. Minor things I liked: - Resistance, vulnerability: I like how simple this is. It feels very powerful, but we'll see if it's too much. - Necromancer rules: Hooray! They preserve action economy and have some flavor. Level one seems weak and level three seems powerful (especially when people start giving their minion armor and weapons and magical items) but I love that necros are getting some love. - Magical items are optional: Great to hear it up front, even being someone who likes them. Run the world however you want! - Initiative is just Dex: Unless you have a bonus or something, you don't need to track it. Nice! Why not kill all bonuses and give them another way so it's one less stat? - "Improvise" as an action: I strongly dislike lists of possible actions because it feels so limiting, but thank you for at least including a "but don't forget you can do other things" rule as well. It was a nice touch, even if you still have a list of actions. Big things I didn't love: - Skills: Seeing a codified skill list made me sad. Learning that each skill had a one-and-only attribute associated with it made me sadder. I loved the freeform skill idea from playtest one, and you can't put me back in the "only CHA can be used to intimidate" box! - Classes gain to-hit: This is very worrisome. Combined with ability score gains, this seems to reverse previous talk about the math game. Where is bounded accuracy? I will definitely give it a shot and hear them out, but I'm worried, especially after the previous system's very bad math problems. - Ray of frost: This spell and the other minors made the wizard a fascinating utility character with some occasional damage potential. This, shocking grasp, and the new thunder wave are now just another damage method with rider effects, like 4.0. This spell is so much less creative or interesting now, and it is also never going to be picked over magic missile. Make spells creative and interesting first, and then let wizards do damage with a fireball. Don't make wizards just AOE fighters. - Spell durations: "Time" is meaningless in a storytelling game. "Until the end of this battle" or "until your next long rest" are things actually mean something. Please standardize these to useful durations. - Intoxicated: I didn't have a dog in this hunt until I saw how badly this was "fixed." You completely ignored the main problem - massive DR - and went for the one thing that didn't really matter - magic missile usage. Please make this DR 1 and ignore the extra spell rules that make it too complex to remember off the top of your head. With characters starting HP levels even lower, 3.5 DR is WAY too good and you actually made this problem much worse. - Still with the Vancian. Hope springs eternal.  Minor things I didn't love: - Turn undead is a spell: I don't mind this on the surface, but it's a net loss to cleric power. Before, they had spells AND another resource to manage that included turning (or simply extra damage). Now they have only spells. Learn from the revamped fighter: managing resources makes a class more interesting! - Sleep spell: Ugh, not the old "turn undead" mechanic! Sleep worked before, this makes it grind gameplay to a halt and requires complex rules. Definitely won't be using this iteration in play - too slow. - Spell disruption: Dex-based? Clerics are MAD about that. Why is being attacked Dex-based but anything else Con-based? Pick one and make it consistent. - Armor: Closer, but still not quite there. Medium armors still lose in mid and high categories, and end-game light armor is still potentially better than heavy (which is fine, but it's unbounded - meaning, it can get stupid better). 500gp Scale is strictly worse than chainmail for over 5x the price. (I really like the idea floated on the forums that Dex has nothing to do with armor, and Str requirements set them apart.) - Cover: Still too complex. One type of cover is enough, and it grants disadvantage on attacks - DONE. - Stabilized: Random times mean extra bookkeeping for no discernible reason. Easy to ignore, though. - Hit Dice: Means nothing. "Healing surges" is what we call them. Also, random out-of-battle healing is bad. Static out-of-battle healing with random in-battle healing seems much better. - Lurker ability "Ambusher:" Quite underpowered now that anyone attacking from stealth gets advantage. This needs help. - Negative HP: This is almost fixed! Why track arbitrary thresholds that vary by character when you can just use "3 failed saves means you're dead?" Anyone attacking is just going to coup de grace anyway. Adding "three passed saves and you're stabilized" is great! - Monsters got homogenized: Why are kobolds just weak hobgoblins? Monsters had minimal distinctions last time, and now they seem to have less. This may shake out better in play, however. Things I found interesting: - Lowering HP and damage: A buff to healing but it still makes level 1 characters feel very frail. - Surprise round is back: Fair enough. Thank you for not making weird half-action rules! - Clerics don't need Cha: They're less MAD about that. - "Since you can’t predict the path your players will choose through an adventure, you can’t really design an adventure around this daily target." Thank you for just invalidating "per day" powers.  - Coinage other than gold pieces, tracking ammo: Well, at least these are easy to ignore, and I'm sure some people enjoy this. - XP per level: What a bunch of impossible-to-remember numbers! It makes me wonder how this came about. Things I still wish would change: - I like spells targeting an ability score instead of rolling saves against a spell effect. Anything that makes players roll instead of the DM is a net time gain. Plus, it's sort of anti-climactic to say "I cast X! ...Ok, what happened?" I think players making saves is important, but spells targeting ability scores is more fun and you don't have to track spell DCs that no one remembers. - I prefer turn undead to destroy undead / do damage, at least to very weak undead. This playtest it's definitely more powerful, but causing enemies to flee is more boring than killing them. Maybe destroy undead that are lower level than the caster? - Vancian. :P Again: still looking forward to it! Unfortunately my list of personal house rules will likely be longer this time (like using the old version of sleep) but I still have faith that the designers are on the right course. I just think the pendulum swung back a little too hard in the other direction this time.
Edit: formatting
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10 months ago ::
Aug 14, 2012 - 8:31AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Feb 22, 2012
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I haven't made it as far as you have in the review of the playtest package, I haven't read much of it at all. But I thought there would be some kind of expectation from this play test package, what are the devs hoping for in terms of feedback. I didn't see that at all. And it'll be our own adventures - looking forward to that
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10 months ago ::
Aug 14, 2012 - 11:10AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Dec 21, 2007
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I get the feeling they're waiting until we get a chance to more fully explore and test before asking for feedback. Posts like mine are probably ignored.  Also, it feels like they put a lot of stock in the surveys they've been holding, so everyone be sure to participate in those when they roll around again!
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10 months ago ::
Aug 14, 2012 - 11:39AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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I'm guessing no one at WotC is making a copy of your post and bringing it to a design meeting to digest it bit by bit. But I would speculate, someone is browsing through these message boards for qualatative data about what people are thinking about DnDnext. There is a lot of redundant crap and hate to filter through. But a lot of worth wild information to clean if you have the time. Time and resources is what limits any attempt to find worthwhile information on these forums. Even if devs are not spot lighting this particular post, people are reading them, and they are thought provoking. So I say worthwhile in continuing to post.
Also, I think your right, there is a lot more weight given to the surveys. First, they focus the topic. the surveys represent what RnD is thinking about. Second, survey's are quantitative, and research people love numbers, "numbers don't lie".
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10 months ago ::
Aug 14, 2012 - 11:41AM
#5
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On the topic of unbounded math, Ability scores cap out at 20, meaning the maximum armor bonus light armor can give is 18 (13+5).
On the same note, Classes gain to-hit because bonuses to-hit are limited to Class+Modifier. Doing away with random +2s means the best you can get during the playtest is +9 (Fighter level 5 is a +4, then +5 for maxed strength) and advantage. The only numerical bonuses beyond that point I have noticed are specific to situations where you are already taking a penalty (cover for example). Falling off the RNG isn't a problem...yet.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 14, 2012 - 12:12PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Dec 21, 2007
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sirkaikillah: Thanks for the kind words! On the topic of unbounded math, Ability scores cap out at 20, meaning the maximum armor bonus light armor can give is 18 (13+5).
On the same note, Classes gain to-hit because bonuses to-hit are limited to Class+Modifier. Doing away with random +2s means the best you can get during the playtest is +9 (Fighter level 5 is a +4, then +5 for maxed strength) and advantage. The only numerical bonuses beyond that point I have noticed are specific to situations where you are already taking a penalty (cover for example). Falling off the RNG isn't a problem...yet.
On your first point, I didn't remember anything saying that ability points are capped, but that would certainly help! On your second, I hope very much that you are right. By no means is the sky falling, but I feel like this is a reasonable topic to be somewhat sensitive about.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 14, 2012 - 3:00PM
#7
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On your first point, I didn't remember anything saying that ability points are capped, but that would certainly help! On your second, I hope very much that you are right. By no means is the sky falling, but I feel like this is a reasonable topic to be somewhat sensitive about.
Reference: Last page of character creation, "a character’s ability score cannot go above 20. "
As for the second point, cautious optimism will serve us best, and if they start going overboard we pull it in line accordingly.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 15, 2012 - 7:18AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Dec 21, 2007
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Thank you for the reference - you are completely correct. It's very explicit, as well. leaving no doubt that 20 is the max, ever: Additionally, at certain levels, you choose two of your character’s ability scores to increase by 1 each, abiding by the rule that a character’s ability score cannot go above 20.
So in that case, light armor at end-game matches heavy, but poor medium is still 1 down. Since medium wearers can always wear light, it just penalizes certain builds. It will also be interesting to see long-time player reaction to studded leather suddenly being medium armor. Honestly, it really feels like they are just throwing ideas against the wall and seeing what sticks. Very little meta-analysis feels like it has been given to armor, especially since it takes some of our more tactical forum members mere seconds to punch holes in the schema (assuming "balance" is what they're looking for). I do appreciate the idea that there is only one "shield," however. Certainly people looking for more realism will dislike it, but it makes the AC math much easier.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 17, 2012 - 2:24PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Jul 29, 2012
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I think all of the extra rules for cover and such should be made as optional. Afterall - isn't it about keeping it simple and letting the game players enjoy the game without it becoming a math free for all?
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