I dunno... rolling stats really feels like D&D, just like the very existence of the Constitution and Charisma stats, or the strong class-based nature of characters. Why insist on progress in one area, and then abandon it in others?
Because a bad idea is a bad idea, even if it 'feels' like something else.
Because a bad idea is a bad idea, even if it 'feels' like something else.
It appears the array is a 25 point buy. If a elf, dwarf or halfling adds their bonus to a 14 or 15, they have the equivalent of 27 points, and placed in any other slot they have the equivalent of 26 points. If a human puts the +2 in the 15 slot, then they end up with the equivalent of 36 points! Even if a human put the +2 in their 12, 10 or 8 slot they still end up with stats from a 34 point buy. This means, counting the provided array as a point buy that a human will have 7 to 10 points higher than the other big three races.
I do prefer a point buy system. It's a little weird that it's not an option currently, and that could be due to humans having such inflated stat bonuses.
Here is the array: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.It appears the array is a 25 point buy. If a elf, dwarf or halfling adds their bonus to a 14 or 15, they have the equivalent of 27 points, and placed in any other slot they have the equivalent of 26 points. If
I dunno... rolling stats really feels like D&D, just like the very existence of the Constitution and Charisma stats, or the strong class-based nature of characters. Why insist on progress in one area, and then abandon it in others?
Personally, I'm happy that you can't plan your character before you get there, and you can't expect to have certain values. There's also at least a chance that your fighter could have decent Wisdom, without it feeling like a sub-par character-design choice.
Part of the game is playing the hand you've been dealt, and if your hand really is that spectacularly lousy (nothing above average), then it does say specifically to consult your DM... who will probably let you re-roll. Would you prefer if they'd taken it out of the hands of a sapient being, and just given a formulaic "if the sum of your ability modifiers is less than +1 and you have no stat of at least 14 then you are allowed to re-roll"?
Then roll your stats. I won't be sitting at a table that forces me to do so, though. I don't want one roll screwing me over for an entire campaign, leaving me with a character I am not satisfied with.
Then roll your stats. I won't be sitting at a table that forces me to do so, though. I don't want one roll screwing me over for an entire campaign, leaving me with a character I am not satisfied with.
I'm happy with rolling for stats as an option, but there should be a point-buy option included in core.
I agree that the lack of a point-buy at this point isn't too much of a stressor, but agree that failure to include one would be a serious mistake.
It would be something which would make me less likely to buy Next, as well as others.
I'm happy with rolling for stats as an option, but there should be a point-buy option included in core.I agree that the lack of a point-buy at this point isn't too much of a stressor, but agree that failure to include one would be a serious mistake.I
It appears the array is a 25 point buy. If a elf, dwarf or halfling adds their bonus to a 14 or 15, they have the equivalent of 27 points, and placed in any other slot they have the equivalent of 26 points. If a human puts the +2 in the 15 slot, then they end up with the equivalent of 36 points! Even if a human put the +2 in their 12, 10 or 8 slot they still end up with stats from a 34 point buy. This means, counting the provided array as a point buy that a human will have 7 to 10 points higher than the other big three races.
I do prefer a point buy system. It's a little weird that it's not an option currently, and that could be due to humans having such inflated stat bonuses.
"I rolled all 18's!""Yah, I watched Jiggaboo Jones on Youtube also. Nice try."www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7ufOkRoShkThere. Problem solved: you know what to look for. :)
Even if you do, it's very easy to be fooled. Vegas deals with this sort of thing constantly and they have much better dice control and are much better than we are at watching for it, I promise you.
-Polaris
Even if you do, it's very easy to be fooled. Vegas deals with this sort of thing constantly and they have much better dice control and are much better than we are at watching for it, I promise you.-Polaris
Even if you do, it's very easy to be fooled. Vegas deals with this sort of thing constantly and they have much better dice control and are much better than we are at watching for it, I promise you.
Yah, they do. I've seen shows about that kinna thing, and while that's not firsthand experience...it's all I needed to know.
Of course...if I have a player good enough to rock the odds at Vegas? I'd let him -have- all 18's in exchange for a tagalong trip.
Yah, they do. I've seen shows about that kinna thing, and while that's not firsthand experience...it's all I needed to know.Of course...if I have a player good enough to rock the odds at Vegas? I'd let him -have- all 18's in exchange for a tagalong
Quick note on the "cheating" stuff... I've had that one player with the luck of ages. Rolling d6? Count on a 5 or 6. Back when we were still rolling stats (as youngsters without a clue) I've had him re-roll his stats multile times with different dice. I watched it carefully and the worst he ever rolled was a 13.
His last roll, the one when we gave up rolling for stats for good, was an array of 18,18,17,17,16,15. Rolled in front of me with my dice.
Another player in the same group? Best stat was 14, followed by an 11.
As said, we then decided together on Point Buy.
Quick note on the "cheating" stuff... I've had that one player with the luck of ages. Rolling d6? Count on a 5 or 6. Back when we were still rolling stats (as youngsters without a clue) I've had him re-roll his stats multile times with different dice
I used to have weird luck like that on Warhammer40k. Played against a friend who played Ultramarines, but he couldn't -ever- field a vehicle without it dying in one shot to my Brightlances. Nothing but a fluke, but after 3 games he went footsloggin' lol. (low point game, only 1k).
I used to have weird luck like that on Warhammer40k. Played against a friend who played Ultramarines, but he couldn't -ever- field a vehicle without it dying in one shot to my Brightlances. Nothing but a fluke, but after 3 games he went footsloggin
To repeat what I said in another place, why are you (the Devs) dropping point buy as a core option entirely?! It almost seems like you are afraid to let players make their own characters.
-Polaris
More like they prefer to please grognards than making a well designed game/system to the point or taking terrible design choices for the same of pleasing grognard's nostalgia fuel
Mature.
Anyway, as someone who prefers stat rolls (although I prefer 2d6 + 6), I actually agree that point buys should be the core system with different flavors of stat rolls presented next.
It's just friendlier to newbies, and some people are going to play this straight out of the box with no research. They won't be able to "work their way backwards" to a point buy. The sort of people who want to roll starts (apparently the technical term is "terrible design loving grognard!") will seek it out as long as you include it.
More like they prefer to please grognards than making a well designed game/system to the point or taking terrible design choices for the same of pleasing grognard's nostalgia fuel[/quote] Mature. Anyway, as someone who prefers stat rolls (although I
More like they prefer to please grognards than making a well designed game/system ....
As someone who is old enough to have bought the old AD&D with his own money when ti came out I can tell you not all us "Old Guard" love the random roll of stats. I 8love8 the point buy system and would be sad if they did nto include one in the final product.
As someone who is old enough to have bought the old AD&D with his own money when ti came out I can tell you not all us "Old Guard" love the random roll of stats. I 8love8 the point buy system and would be sad if they did nto include one in the final
More like they prefer to please grognards than making a well designed game/system ....
As someone who is old enough to have bought the old AD&D with his own money when ti came out I can tell you not all us "Old Guard" love the random roll of stats. I 8love8 the point buy system and would be sad if they did nto include one in the final product.
It's Mexrage, I wouldn't worry. He honestly believes anyone old enough to have bought something before third edition is going to -die- within 10 years.
Of old age.
As someone who is old enough to have bought the old AD&D with his own money when ti came out I can tell you not all us "Old Guard" love the random roll of stats. I 8love8 the point buy system and would be sad if they did nto include one in the final
If rolling stats is option #1, I'm definitely going to bake a set to come up sixes.
Microwave + Cheap Plastic dice == awesome (sarc)
-Polaris
The local dollar store has white pipped d6es 20 for a buck. $2 should be able to more than cover the trial and error involved.
Microwave + Cheap Plastic dice == awesome (sarc)-Polaris[/quote]The local dollar store has white pipped d6es 20 for a buck. $2 should be able to more than cover the trial and error involved.
Pretty much this. It's one thing to be like "I attempt to diplomacize the king, Ohp, rolled a one, now the royal guard is out for our blood." *Shenanigans ensue* It's quite another to be like "I roll a character, Ohp, five 10s and an 8, guess I get to be dead weight for the rest of the campaign."
Yep, its amazing how many grognards fail to grasp how you can like randomness in task resolution, and not character resource allocation. Random HP/stats need to be the module, not the other way around.
Pretty much this. It's one thing to be like "I attempt to diplomacize the king, Ohp, rolled a one, now the royal guard is out for our blood." *Shenanigans ensue* It's quite another to be like "I roll a character, Ohp, five 10s and an 8, guess I get t
The local dollar store has white pipped d6es 20 for a buck. $2 should be able to more than cover the trial and error involved.
"I don't like that they mentioned rolling and I'mma show my disapproval by threatening to CHEAT!" - TCO "Well, that's human nature, I suppose we need a rule for it!" - OptimusZed
"I don't like that they mentioned rolling and I'mma show my disapproval by threatening to CHEAT!" - TCO"Well, that's human nature, I suppose we need a rule for it!" - OptimusZed:panic:
More like they prefer to please grognards than making a well designed game/system to the point or taking terrible design choices for the same of pleasing grognard's nostalgia fuel
Hey now, I consider myself a grognard and rolling for ability scores is the single worst part of D&D character creation. You can bet your rubber baby buggy bumper that if they don't present point buy (and a REAL point buy, not the underpowered one we got saddled with as the default PB), then I at least will rip out the old 3e PB and use it.
Hey now, I consider myself a grognard and rolling for ability scores is the single worst part of D&D character creation. You can bet your rubber baby buggy bumper that if they don't present point buy (and a REAL point buy, not the underpowered one w
More like they prefer to please grognards than making a well designed game/system ....
As someone who is old enough to have bought the old AD&D with his own money when ti came out I can tell you not all us "Old Guard" love the random roll of stats. I 8love8 the point buy system and would be sad if they did nto include one in the final product.
It's Mexrage, I wouldn't worry. He honestly believes anyone old enough to have bought something before third edition is going to -die- within 10 years.
Of old age.
I never said 10 years...i said between 20 and 30! =P
And my rant was more on the fact that most of the decisions taken into account for the design of 5e is based only on nostalgia and not based on game design...
As someone who is old enough to have bought the old AD&D with his own money when ti came out I can tell you not all us "Old Guard" love the random roll of stats. I 8love8 the point buy system and would be sad if they did nto include one in the final
Point buy will be added, I'm sure of it; notice how it says to ask your DM about other stat generation options.
Further, rolling for stats in no way breaks any of their design goals. If you don't like it, that's great, don't use it. Trying to claim that it's terrible and no one should ever use it doesn't help you present a point.
Lets also roll for class abilities! Yay, my wizard rolled well, and can cast in armor! Sweet, my ranger can also cast spells as a full fledged druid! Boo, my fighter can only use slings. Double bummer... my cleric died before the game began because his god hated him! Whelp, see you guys next week!
Because randomness is so much fun, next game I'll be doing the following. Roll a d6. On a 1-2, you get to roll 2d8 instead of a d20 for the rest of the game. On a 3-4, you get to roll a d20. On a 5-6 you get to roll 3d10 instead!
Lets also roll for class abilities! Yay, my wizard rolled well, and can cast in armor! Sweet, my ranger can also cast spells as a full fledged druid! Boo, my fighter can only use slings. Double bummer... my cleric died before the game began because h
The local dollar store has white pipped d6es 20 for a buck. $2 should be able to more than cover the trial and error involved.
"I don't like that they mentioned rolling and I'mma show my disapproval by threatening to CHEAT!" - TCO "Well, that's human nature, I suppose we need a rule for it!" - OptimusZed
Who said anything about threats . I cheated like crazy rolling stats when I was playing 2E. I'm just coming home.
"I don't like that they mentioned rolling and I'mma show my disapproval by threatening to CHEAT!" - TCO"Well, that's human nature, I suppose we need a rule for it!" - OptimusZed:panic:[/quote]Who said anything about threats . I cheated like crazy rol
The local dollar store has white pipped d6es 20 for a buck. $2 should be able to more than cover the trial and error involved.
"I don't like that they mentioned rolling and I'mma show my disapproval by threatening to CHEAT!" - TCO "Well, that's human nature, I suppose we need a rule for it!" - OptimusZed
Who said anything about threats . I cheated like crazy rolling stats when I was playing 2E. I'm just coming home.
That'll show 'em.
"I don't like that they mentioned rolling and I'mma show my disapproval by threatening to CHEAT!" - TCO"Well, that's human nature, I suppose we need a rule for it!" - OptimusZed:panic:[/quote]Who said anything about threats . I cheated like crazy rol
The local dollar store has white pipped d6es 20 for a buck. $2 should be able to more than cover the trial and error involved.
"I don't like that they mentioned rolling and I'mma show my disapproval by threatening to CHEAT!" - TCO "Well, that's human nature, I suppose we need a rule for it!" - OptimusZed
Who said anything about threats . I cheated like crazy rolling stats when I was playing 2E. I'm just coming home.
That'll show 'em.
Your stats highly impact your performance, and do so to a greater degree in this game than in any previous edition. You roll them once before play, and then are stuck with them forever, particularly if you arent playing Gygaxian fantasy Vietnam where characters are disposable. Getting good stats pays long term benefits, and that's the incentive.
We did array/point buy every time with 3E/4E. When I played 2E, the understanding between players and DMs alike was 4d6 drop lowest with as much cheating as you think you can get away with.
"I don't like that they mentioned rolling and I'mma show my disapproval by threatening to CHEAT!" - TCO"Well, that's human nature, I suppose we need a rule for it!" - OptimusZed:panic:[/quote]Who said anything about threats . I cheated like crazy rol
Ability score generation methods are not what they're evaluating in this particular playtest packet. That's all we can reasonably infer at this point. Hardly a reason to push the panic button. If you don't like rolling, just use the standard array, and concentrate on giving feedback about the stuff they're actually evaluating from this packet.
Ability score generation methods are not what they're evaluating in this particular playtest packet. That's all we can reasonably infer at this point. Hardly a reason to push the panic button. If you don't like rolling, just use the standard array, a
I get (and agree with) the idea that random stats are less friendly to new people.
I don't get the idea that random stats are likely to induce cheating, though. In a system as math heavy as, well, any D&D game cheating is basically effortless if someone actually wants to do it unless you DM has outright memorized your character sheat. There's no real hedge against cheating in-game anyway- random rolls just seems like at worst a different outlet.
I get (and agree with) the idea that random stats are less friendly to new people.I don't get the idea that random stats are likely to induce cheating, though. In a system as math heavy as, well, any D&D game cheating is basically effortless if someo
Hi! This is a playtest packet. Not all the rules are included yet, because some of them aren't done yet. Standard arrays and rolling 4d6-drop-lowest are the easiest options to consider; point-buy systems are likely going to have some debate over whether you assume a base stat of 8, 9, or 10 to work from. Or if you start from 3 and work up. We don't know yet.
I do note, however, that the character creation rules present two options - a standard array, and rolling stats. In both cases, you then assign stats the way you want them - so as always, you will be putting your best stat where you want it. The full game will likely have the 'if you have nothing above X or your total modifier is Y, just reroll' option in there - but extreme bad luck aside, the only way your Wizard is getting shafted with a 10 Intelligence is if you put a 10 in his intelligence.
As two other notes - first, there's an absolute cap of 20 on stats. Second, at least judging from the magic items in the first packet, ability-boosting gear might not be additive but rather absolute. 'This belt gives the wearer an 18 Strength', for instance. This means your rolls could in face matter less.
So let's wait and see, and use rolls or the array as suits us for now. I look forward to rolling again, myself.
I'll chime in with this.Hi! This is a playtest packet. Not all the rules are included yet, because some of them aren't done yet. Standard arrays and rolling 4d6-drop-lowest are the easiest options to consider; point-buy systems are likely going to
Ability score generation methods are not what they're evaluating in this particular playtest packet. That's all we can reasonably infer at this point. Hardly a reason to push the panic button. If you don't like rolling, just use the standard array, and concentrate on giving feedback about the stuff they're actually evaluating from this packet.
It is still important to give feedback as you see it.
Yes, it is assumed we will be testing what the main push for this packet is, but feedback on other parts are equally valuable so that when the test for more detailed character generation comes up they will already have some feedback on what to do with it. There is always the risk that, by the time they make a big detailed system for something that they will feel compelled to keep using it.
Small pushes early on can have larger, more satisfactory outcomes than waiting until the last minute and having a screaming hissy over it.
It is still important to give feedback as you see it.Yes, it is assumed we will be testing what the main push for this packet is, but feedback on other parts are equally valuable so that when the test for more detailed character generation comes up t
I noticed that in the new packet rolling for ability scores is the default, and no option is presented for point buy. This is a major problem in my opinion. If a group wants to roll for scores that's fine but point buy needs to be the default for RPGA if nothing else. And I for one do not want any random elements in character creation or leveling. It's too easy for your character concept to get screwed over big time by the dice. It also can easily unbalance the party if one player rolls well and another rolls poorly. And we've all seen the wizard who keeps rolling a 1 for hit points. Ability scores and hit points are with a character throughout his or her life. They're just too important to be trusted to the dice. Thanks.
While I agree with you, none of those are reasons not include rolling as one of the methods of generating ability scores (which is what the title of your thread seems to be suggesting that you want). They're just good arguments for not making it the only option.
While I agree with you, none of those are reasons not include rolling as one of the methods of generating ability scores (which is what the title of your thread seems to be suggesting that you want). They're just good arguments for not making it the
I'm actually really liking the default array right now. It seemed a little odd at first, but once I saw the race/class stat bonuses it started making a lot more sense to me.
I'm actually really liking the default array right now. It seemed a little odd at first, but once I saw the race/class stat bonuses it started making a lot more sense to me.
I really like that Ability Score Generation include both rolling and a standard array.
We're just missing a third option for point by and everyone should be happy.
I really like that Ability Score Generation include both rolling and a standard array. We're just missing a third option for point by and everyone should be happy.
The local dollar store has white pipped d6es 20 for a buck. $2 should be able to more than cover the trial and error involved.
"I don't like that they mentioned rolling and I'mma show my disapproval by threatening to CHEAT!" - TCO "Well, that's human nature, I suppose we need a rule for it!" - OptimusZed
We have that rule.
It's called point buy.
"I don't like that they mentioned rolling and I'mma show my disapproval by threatening to CHEAT!" - TCO"Well, that's human nature, I suppose we need a rule for it!" - OptimusZed:panic:[/quote]We have that rule.It's called point buy.
I'm actually really liking the default array right now. It seemed a little odd at first, but once I saw the race/class stat bonuses it started making a lot more sense to me.
You do realize that if you use the default array, the only way to have an 18 stat (at least initially) is to be human?
-Polaris
You do realize that if you use the default array, the only way to have an 18 stat (at least initially) is to be human?-Polaris
I really like that Ability Score Generation include both rolling and a standard array.
We're just missing a third option for point by and everyone should be happy.
Which begs the question why it wasn't included. After all the elite array is nothing more than a variation of the elite 25pt point buy from 3E.
-Polaris
Which begs the question why it wasn't included. After all the elite array is nothing more than a variation of the elite 25pt point buy from 3E.-Polaris
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" class="mceContentBody " contenteditable="true" />You do realize that if you use the default array, the only way to have an 18 stat (at least initially) is to be human?
-Polaris
What makes you think that a character should have an 18 stat at first level by default?
What's the point of having an array from 3-18, if all PCs are going to start with 18's?
What makes you think that a character should have an 18 stat at first level by default?What's the point of having an array from 3-18, if all PCs are going to start with 18's?
I really like that Ability Score Generation include both rolling and a standard array.
We're just missing a third option for point by and everyone should be happy.
Which begs the question why it wasn't included. After all the elite array is nothing more than a variation of the elite 25pt point buy from 3E.
-Polaris
Because it's an evil conspiracy to present heinous crimes of omission in order to get you to quit, so they can further ruin the game without challenge.
Or, they just didn't get around to it.
Which begs the question why it wasn't included. After all the elite array is nothing more than a variation of the elite 25pt point buy from 3E.-Polaris[/quote]Because it's an evil conspiracy to present heinous crimes of omission in order to get you
That, plus the return of BAB are pretty much mutually exclusive to bounded accuracy. So, I guess that idea is tossed?
Ya either they don't understand what "bounded accuracy" means, or they ditched the idea. It's a shame they screwed up the only original thing about 5e.
Also, I hate rolling for stats, and point buy MUST be an option if I will even so much as consider playing this game.
Ya either they don't understand what "bounded accuracy" means, or they ditched the idea. It's a shame they screwed up the only original thing about 5e.Also, I hate rolling for stats, and point buy MUST be an option if I will even so much as consider
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" class="mceContentBody " contenteditable="true" />You do realize that if you use the default array, the only way to have an 18 stat (at least initially) is to be human?
-Polaris
What makes you think that a character should have an 18 stat at first level by default?
What's the point of having an array from 3-18, if all PCs are going to start with 18's?
Why shouldn't I? I expect to pay for it of course, but why not?
-Polaris
What makes you think that a character should have an 18 stat at first level by default?What's the point of having an array from 3-18, if all PCs are going to start with 18's?[/quote]Why shouldn't I? I expect to pay for it of course, but why not?-Pol
I really like that Ability Score Generation include both rolling and a standard array.
We're just missing a third option for point by and everyone should be happy.
Which begs the question why it wasn't included. After all the elite array is nothing more than a variation of the elite 25pt point buy from 3E.
-Polaris
Because it's an evil conspiracy to present heinous crimes of omission in order to get you to quit, so they can further ruin the game without challenge.
Or, they just didn't get around to it.
I will ignore the first as nonsensical, but the second reason makes no sense. They had room to list the elite array but not to include the well known 25 point 3e point buy option?
I don't buy it. I think the omission was and is deliberate.
-Polaris
Which begs the question why it wasn't included. After all the elite array is nothing more than a variation of the elite 25pt point buy from 3E.-Polaris[/quote]Because it's an evil conspiracy to present heinous crimes of omission in order to get you
Why shouldn't I? I expect to pay for it of course, but why not?
-Polaris
I never said you shouldn't.
But you're insisting that you need one, and I'm calling you on it.
18's are nice to have. They're possible, if rare, when rolling stats. They're possible, if rare, with the standard array. Presumably, when we have rules for point buy, they will be both possible and rare. I don't see the problem.
I never said you shouldn't.But you're insisting that you need one, and I'm calling you on it.18's are nice to have. They're possible, if rare, when rolling stats. They're possible, if rare, with the standard array. Presumably, when we have rules f
Why shouldn't I? I expect to pay for it of course, but why not?
-Polaris
I never said you shouldn't.
But you're insisting that you need one, and I'm calling you on it.
18's are nice to have. They're possible, if rare, when rolling stats. They're possible, if rare, with the standard array. Presumably, when we have rules for point buy, they will be both possible and rare. I don't see the problem.
Try harder then because I didn't say that. I said that you had to be human if you wanted a starting attribute of 18. Given how hard it is to get bonuses, that's an important consideration.
I never said it was required.
-Polaris
I never said you shouldn't.But you're insisting that you need one, and I'm calling you on it.18's are nice to have. They're possible, if rare, when rolling stats. They're possible, if rare, with the standard array. Presumably, when we have rules f
In my Chinese D&D community I notice that many new players want to find a group but can't (because group is still rare). So what do they do before they got into a group? They read PHB and practice making character cards. Using the universal standard point buy stated as default in the PHBs. So that they got a card ready when a group opens up.
With rolling? Most DMs I know make new players roll before their eyes. So it's hard to reuse the card.
I don't this process, but I think a standard baseline would help them better then rolling, even just standard array, just like suggested Background and Speciality.
In my Chinese D&D community I notice that many new players want to find a group but can't (because group is still rare). So what do they do before they got into a group? They read PHB and practice making character cards. Using the universal standard
At the same time I feel that leaving out point buy options from te packet was a mistake because it does not ease the stress between differing playstyles.
I personally despise point buy.At the same time I feel that leaving out point buy options from te packet was a mistake because it does not ease the stress between differing playstyles.
More like they prefer to please grognards than making a well designed game/system to the point or taking terrible design choices for the same of pleasing grognard's nostalgia fuel
No, the true fuel for my fellow grognards (french for AWESOME) are the tears and lamentations of new edition gimmick gamists. But that said, I don't like the idea of rolling for stats or hps either. Character design should be choice, dice rolling is for resolving mechanics after the game has started.
No, the true fuel for my fellow grognards (french for AWESOME) are the tears and lamentations of new edition gimmick gamists. But that said, I don't like the idea of rolling for stats or hps either. Character design should be choice, dice rolling i
The problem is not the standard array, point buy, or random ability score generation method. The problem is the importance of ability scores in the game. If I want the optimized character, I want to start with an 18, add +1 for class and +1 for race (or +2 for humans). Now I have a 20 ( or 21 if is allowed). +5 for eternity on attacks and damage. That is what point buy people want.
What if this were the standard? 1-4 = -2 mod 5-8 = -1 mod 9-12 = 0 mod 13-16 = +1 mod 17-20 = +2 mod 21-24 = +3 mod
It would soften the effect of ability score generation.
I assume point buy people don't like the standard array because they want higher scores to start with. Am I wrong?
If given a 25 point buy. What scores, race, class would you take first?
The problem is not the standard array, point buy, or random ability score generation method. The problem is the importance of ability scores in the game. If I want the optimized character, I want to start with an 18, add +1 for class and +1 for rac
Given how much importance is being placed on ability scores in this edition, I'm truly baffled that they are still using rolling as the default method for generating characters. And rolling for hit points is even worse.
Given how much importance is being placed on ability scores in this edition, I'm truly baffled that they are still using rolling as the default method for generating characters. And rolling for hit points is even worse.
More like they prefer to please grognards than making a well designed game/system to the point or taking terrible design choices for the same of pleasing grognard's nostalgia fuel
No, the true fuel for my fellow grognards (french for AWESOME) are the tears and lamentations of new edition gimmick gamists. But that said, I don't like the idea of rolling for stats or hps either. Character design should be choice, dice rolling is for resolving mechanics after the game has started.
The problem is not the standard array, point buy, or random ability score generation method. The problem is the importance of ability scores in the game. If I want the optimized character, I want to start with an 18, add +1 for class and +1 for race (or +2 for humans). Now I have a 20 ( or 21 if is allowed). +5 for eternity on attacks and damage. That is what point buy people want. What if this were the standard? 1-4 = -2 mod 5-8 = -1 mod 9-12 = 0 mod 13-16 = +1 mod 17-20 = +2 mod 21-24 = +3 mod It would soften the effect of ability score generation. I assume point buy people don't like the standard array because they want higher scores to start with. Am I wrong? If given a 25 point buy. What scores, race, class would you take first?
If you want to start with 20 in a point-buy environment, sure you can do so. But it is going to be expensive to get that 18 before class / racial bonus. That leaves you with only a few points to put in Con for some HP or in Dex for some AC. Also there might be feat prerequisites like in 4e. You cannot always afford to make one ability score high and dump the others. It is a tradeoff. The scenario you mention justs shifts the whole thing to somewhat other values. Still the behaviour of someone optimizing a character will be the same.
When you roll you ability scores and are lucky, however, there is nothing stopping you from putting that high scores in all your most important abilities. If you are unlucky, you will have a mediocre primary ability score in spite of having to dump the other ability scores. This is the main problem I have with ability score rolling. Point-Buy makes high ability scores expensive, period. Rolling makes high ability scores unlikely, but not expensive once you have rolled them. The same goes for low rolled ability scores. You don't get something back for rolling low on ability scores.
I agree that ability scores are very important. That +1 attack and +1 damage goes a long way in making a character more powerful. This is why I would prefer to make especially the primary ability score less powerful, for example by giving only +mod to damage but not to attack. This would also fit to the design goals of bounded accuracy.
However, if ability scores were not so important, I would personally still prefer a point buy system.
No, the true fuel for my fellow grognards (french for AWESOME) are the tears and lamentations of new edition gimmick gamists. But that said, I don't like the idea of rolling for stats or hps either. Character design should be choice, dice rolling i
Apparently, while 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 is statistically the average roll you will get with 4d6 drop the lowest, due to the inflated values of stats 15 and higher, you get far more than a 25 point buy. He used very deflated costs for the sub 8 stats, and got a 30 point buy average (28 if you don't discard hopeless sets). I used undeflated values for negative stats (everything under 8 just costs 1 less point) and still got a 30 point by after 20 sets (discarding hopeless sets).
Heck, removing the inflated costs for 15 and above, I got a 26.2 point buy for a set of 10 stats (discarding hopeless sets); standard array is 24 points in such a system.
So either way, rolling is statistically better than point buy, but since sucking hurts more than being awesome is cool, we don't feel it that way.
Dug up this old thread: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...Apparently, while 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 is statistically the average roll you will get with 4d6 drop the lowest, due to the inflated values of stats 15 and higher, you get far more th
I want to see them do randomized point buy, this is where you roll for how many ability points to add, subtract its point buy and keep going (random or ordered ability list) until you spend the point buy. Simple and easy, use 2d4 or 2d5 depending on the base and max ability. You get parties that have all the same power, without the extremes of min-maxers of true point buy or random outliers of dice pools. If your first roll is 18 ability then point buy means opportunity cost the last few attributes stay at default.
Being truly random 3-18 from dice pools with someone really sucking may be fun for one-shot dungeon delves, but if you plan to campaign for a year, that only makes sense if you are rerolling on death for the cousin of the brother of the former PC random replacements.
I also have another point buy system using stacked d20 to roll. Then you get 12 d20 to stack spend 12d20 on one attribute and accept the base for other abilities or 2d20 for each abilities with median roll of 15. Not as balanced as point buy, not as random as d6 dice pools. Works best if the ability modifer table is bell curved to match the stacked die odds.
I want to see them do randomized point buy, this is where you roll for how many ability points to add, subtract its point buy and keep going (random or ordered ability list) until you spend the point buy. Simple and easy, use 2d4 or 2d5 depending on
I like the point buy myself. I don't understand the outrage however. Nothing is stopping you from plopping it into your game.
Of course, likewise nothing is stopping you from filing out your sheet manually with all 18's. The point is to provide feedback, as maybe they decided to abandon point buy on purpose, rather than just neglected it from rushing character builds out in time for the con playtests. It needs to be in the docs to establish the ability increase table, do you do it before or after race, what are recommended point buy budget the game is balanced for so you can go for stronger or weaker parties.
Of course, likewise nothing is stopping you from filing out your sheet manually with all 18's. The point is to provide feedback, as maybe they decided to abandon point buy on purpose, rather than just neglected it from rushing character builds out in
It seems to me that rolling is probably the best way to stress test the system. It is a playtest, afterall. It's a good way to find out just how handicapped non-optimized character stats are, and whether mega stats will break the system, and whether the two can play together and still have it be fun.
That said, the default of Roll Up A Random Array is my least favorite way of generating a character. I much prefer Roll In Order Take What You Get. But I do like Standard Array. I think it's a great way to get people quickly started.
It seems to me that rolling is probably the best way to stress test the system. It is a playtest, afterall. It's a good way to find out just how handicapped non-optimized character stats are, and whether mega stats will break the system, and whether
Regarding the array that they have provided, I don't understand why they would purposely use an array that precludes all races except Humans to potentially achieve an 18 in one ability score. I feel that this decision was just highly arbitrary.
And I agree with absolutely hating dice rolling for abilities. The limits you need to place on it (read: house rules) to make those characters either playable or not broken are ridiculous. I never played pen and paper D&D before 3.5, but I still remember how character generation worked for games like Icewind Dale. Yeah, I'd just keep rolling until I got as high as I wanted...but a single player computer game is massively different from a pen and paper game played with other people.
Regarding the array that they have provided, I don't understand why they would purposely use an array that precludes all races except Humans to potentially achieve an 18 in one ability score. I feel that this decision was just highly arbitrary.And I
I'm actually really liking the default array right now. It seemed a little odd at first, but once I saw the race/class stat bonuses it started making a lot more sense to me.
You do realize that if you use the default array, the only way to have an 18 stat (at least initially) is to be human?
-Polaris
So? Is there some reason your character has to be the absolute pinnacle of human physical ability at level 1?
You do realize that if you use the default array, the only way to have an 18 stat (at least initially) is to be human?-Polaris[/quote]So? Is there some reason your character has to be the absolute pinnacle of human physical ability at level 1?
I will ignore the first as nonsensical, but the second reason makes no sense. They had room to list the elite array but not to include the well known 25 point 3e point buy option?
I don't buy it. I think the omission was and is deliberate.
-Polaris
I feel like a crazy conspiracy theorist for saying this, but it just feels like the designers are deliberately tweaking 4e fans in order to regain credibility with the pre-4e crowd.
I feel like a crazy conspiracy theorist for saying this, but it just feels like the designers are deliberately tweaking 4e fans in order to regain credibility with the pre-4e crowd.
So? Is there some reason your character has to be the absolute pinnacle of human physical ability at level 1?
Is 18 currently the absolute maximum of human capability?
And even if, maybe that is exactly what's going on. Maybe my character is actually at the pinnacle of humany physical capbility. What then? Tough luck?
Is 18 currently the absolute maximum of human capability?And even if, maybe that is exactly what's going on. Maybe my character is actually at the pinnacle of humany physical capbility. What then? Tough luck?
So? Is there some reason your character has to be the absolute pinnacle of human physical ability at level 1?
Is 18 currently the absolute maximum of human capability?
And even if, maybe that is exactly what's going on. Maybe my character is actually at the pinnacle of humany physical capbility. What then? Tough luck?
No, it's 20. A level 1 human who rolls(point buys)a 17 can add 2 from being Human and 1 from their class and have a 20.
Is 18 currently the absolute maximum of human capability?And even if, maybe that is exactly what's going on. Maybe my character is actually at the pinnacle of humany physical capbility. What then? Tough luck?[/quote]No, it's 20. A level 1 human who r
I'm actually really liking the default array right now. It seemed a little odd at first, but once I saw the race/class stat bonuses it started making a lot more sense to me.
You do realize that if you use the default array, the only way to have an 18 stat (at least initially) is to be human?
-Polaris
So? Is there some reason your character has to be the absolute pinnacle of human physical ability at level 1?
I have one roleplaying reason : He wants to play this and focus his character development as he wants among the other abilities during the adventure without worrying about a primary ability that controls far too much game parameters.
Rolling abilities means that the probability that I will be able to play the character I have in mind before rolling is low at best. Even if I want to play a stupid lazy scorbutic old thief who lives as a beggar most of the time.
Some people love to discover what they will play from the dice, some others want to play what they have already envisioned. The two points of view are OK, but favoring one is not ok.
You do realize that if you use the default array, the only way to have an 18 stat (at least initially) is to be human?-Polaris[/quote]So? Is there some reason your character has to be the absolute pinnacle of human physical ability at level 1?[/quot
An 18 is the highest base ability you can roll. It will also be the highest stat you can buy with point buy. It is therefore the peak of human (or demi-human) ability before racial bonuses (and now class bonuses) are factored in.
So if we want to get picky, a 21 is the peak ability score. Natural 18, +2 for being human, +1 from class.
An 18 is the highest base ability you can roll. It will also be the highest stat you can buy with point buy. It is therefore the peak of human (or demi-human) ability before racial bonuses (and now class bonuses) are factored in.So if we want to ge
Normally, you generate those numbers randomly by rolling dice...
If you would rather not roll the ability scores...
Your Dungeon Master might instruct you to generate your character’s ability scores by another method.
I am very happy to see randomly rolling dice (in particular this method) is one of the core two choices.
I don't know what's wrong with:Normally, you generate those numbers randomly by rolling dice...If you would rather not roll the ability scores...Your Dungeon Master might instruct you to generate your character’s ability scores by another metho
I agree with a previous poster that a combination of random rolls and point buy would be great. Start rolling randomly. Each roll subtracts from the point buy. When the point buy pool is depleted, the character's remaining ability scores are 8's. 25 point buy. Cost 9 - 1 pt 10 - 2 pts 11 - 3 pts 12 - 4 pts 13 - 5 pts 14 - 6 pts 15 - 8 pts 16 - 10 pts 17 - 12 pts 18 - 14 pts
My other choice would be to lessen the modifiers so an 18 would not be such a great benefit.
I agree with a previous poster that a combination of random rolls and point buy would be great. Start rolling randomly. Each roll subtracts from the point buy. When the point buy pool is depleted, the character's remaining ability scores are 8's.25
Rolling stats for a character meant for a months long campaign is beyond lame. It only makes sense(debatable) at all for Gygaxian fantasy Vietnam where you go through characters like toilet paper.
Rolling stats for a character meant for a months long campaign is beyond lame. It only makes sense(debatable) at all for Gygaxian fantasy Vietnam where you go through characters like toilet paper.
Normally, you generate those numbers randomly by rolling dice...
If you would rather not roll the ability scores...
Your Dungeon Master might instruct you to generate your character’s ability scores by another method.
I am very happy to see randomly rolling dice (in particular this method) is one of the core two choices.
Another method is like your DM will houserule something for you.
The easy solution would be to propose two "main" ways of determining abilities, 1 rolled, 1 controlled. But they didn't, so most inexperienced or prudent DMs will decide that the game has been designed for random abilities and not allow another solution.
All editions until now has favored one ability generation style above others, so an entire category of players has been forced to follow a character creation path they disliked.
The chapter should be something like : If your player wants to shape his character from top to bottom, he will like this solution, and if he like to deduce what his character will be from random numbers, then he will like this other solution. And then : Your Dungeon Master might instruct you to generate your character’s ability scores by another method.
I'm not the one who talked about unifying different views on the game and proposed a playtest ignoring one big difference…
Another method is like your DM will houserule something for you.The easy solution would be to propose two "main" ways of determining abilities, 1 rolled, 1 controlled. But they didn't, so most inexperienced or prudent DMs will decide that the game ha
My experience with rolling stats is the same guys always roll at least 3 18s and nothing less than a 12. These are also the guys who just don't have time to make a pc in front of the Dm. Then there are the guys who stat may have a 18, but always has an 8 or 9. Now why do these guys always seem to have the time to make pcs with the Dm? I think some one is cheating. Even if no one is cheating the wild variance in individual pcs' ability scores can be unfair. I'm a fan of point buy over random rolling stats.
But it would not be hard for them to provide both methods and let individual gaming groups decide for themselves what method best suites their game style.
My experience with rolling stats is the same guys always roll at least 3 18s and nothing less than a 12. These are also the guys who just don't have time to make a pc in front of the Dm. Then there are the guys who stat may have a 18, but always ha
I completely get the "yes pointbuy" movement. I really don't get the "no rolling" movement.
Even if you don't like it, what justification do you have to deny it to others?
I completely get the "yes pointbuy" movement. I really don't get the "no rolling" movement.Even if you don't like it, what justification do you have to deny it to others?
I completely get the "yes pointbuy" movement. I really don't get the "no rolling" movement.
Even if you don't like it, what justification do you have to deny it to others?
Not one to completely deny it to others, but I'd like for Array or Pointbuy to be standard. If alone for new players so they can start in a controlled enviropnment that guarantees that nobody get's the 6/8/9/10/13/14 stats while another gets to enjoy a "none below 13"-situation. That is ass and I know at least one person whom never got deeper into RPG's because of that.
Not one to completely deny it to others, but I'd like for Array or Pointbuy to be standard. If alone for new players so they can start in a controlled enviropnment that guarantees that nobody get's the 6/8/9/10/13/14 stats while another gets to enjoy
Those that favor randomization at character creation or progression stage and like rolling stats and HP should have the ability to do so and thus should be present in the game regardless if some people don't like that. So is Point by.
That's why including both random and non-random methods of generation is good in my opinion. Now point by has been mentioned by R&D before so i assume its a matter of time before we see it implemented.
Those that favor randomization at character creation or progression stage and like rolling stats and HP should have the ability to do so and thus should be present in the game regardless if some people don't like that. So is Point by.That's why inclu
Because of exactly what I've described just now? Seriously, I get the impression you completely skip my postings. I honestly have no problem with rolling be in the game, even with being presented as equal choice, as long as the books also inform players and DM's (especially new ones) that this method of stat-generation is (highly) unbalanced and can lead to problems.
Because of exactly what I've described just now? Seriously, I get the impression you completely skip my postings. I honestly have no problem with rolling be in the game, even with being presented as equal choice, as long as the books also inform play
Disagreeing with you is not the same as ignoring your posts.
You're saying they all should be standard: I'm saying none should be standard. The concept of standard/default/whatever is dead.
Disagreeing with you is not the same as ignoring your posts.You're saying they all should be standard: I'm saying none should be standard. The concept of standard/default/whatever is dead.
I agree with a previous poster that a combination of random rolls and point buy would be great. Start rolling randomly. Each roll subtracts from the point buy. When the point buy pool is depleted, the character's remaining ability scores are 8's. 25 point buy. Cost 9 - 1 pt 10 - 2 pts 11 - 3 pts 12 - 4 pts 13 - 5 pts 14 - 6 pts 15 - 8 pts 16 - 10 pts 17 - 12 pts 18 - 14 pts My other choice would be to lessen the modifiers so an 18 would not be such a great benefit.
I prefer the 3.5e that starts at 8. Then 2d5 (a 2d6 where 6 is a 0) gets you 8-18 with an above average ability for your first rolls average until you run out of buy points then you are at 8, then apply race. 4e table is wierd starting at 10 except for one ability of your choice that starts at 8, which you have to do a seperate point buy to get it up to 10 (or not). 4e could have more simply said start at 8 and spend two to get to 10 and it is strongly recommended to have no more than one 8.
There is another version of random point buy where you print up array tables chosen from d20 or d100. The d100 table is unwieldy, whereas the d20 makes assumptions, like no odds or too many 14 highest at the expense of 18 highest tables.
The notion of 25, 28, 32, or even 40 or 15 point buy budgets sets the tone for the campaign you want to have with all characters of equal power, some are specialized min/max while others may be generalists but they can all work together.
Humans being +12 ability when other races are +2 ability makes them way too powerful when they should just be flexible. The whole point of humans is they all cover the gamut of the other races, not one human is better than any other race. 4e did that one right, but I am starting to agree with conspiracy theorists that think the motivational poster on the WOTC dev wall says '5e next because it aint 4e.
I prefer the 3.5e that starts at 8. Then 2d5 (a 2d6 where 6 is a 0) gets you 8-18 with an above average ability for your first rolls average until you run out of buy points then you are at 8, then apply race. 4e table is wierd starting at 10 exce
I noticed that in the new packet rolling for ability scores is the default, and no option is presented for point buy. This is a major problem in my opinion. If a group wants to roll for scores that's fine but point buy needs to be the default for RPGA if nothing else. And I for one do not want any random elements in character creation or leveling. It's too easy for your character concept to get screwed over big time by the dice. It also can easily unbalance the party if one player rolls well and another rolls poorly. And we've all seen the wizard who keeps rolling a 1 for hit points. Ability scores and hit points are with a character throughout his or her life. They're just too important to be trusted to the dice. Thanks.
But there was an array for you to use, so you didn't have to roll anything.
But there was an array for you to use, so you didn't have to roll anything.
Why do any of them have to be standard, if not simply to enshrine one's personal preferences on a pedestal of official legitimacy?
For the simple reason it is documentation for new DM and new PC to learn different ways of building their characters, with stated pros and cons for achieving campaign goals vs. game balancing. That the game is (or is not) balanced for achieving a certain average build. Sure each methods valid for different playstyles, so just document them. If 5e ends up being houseruled for every little thing, then what is even the point of coming out with a new edition? It is supposed to be an inclusive edition, not an exclusive edition. Takes all of a paragraph to describe all the various methods in the character build section.
For the simple reason it is documentation for new DM and new PC to learn different ways of building their characters, with stated pros and cons for achieving campaign goals vs. game balancing. That the game is (or is not) balanced for achieving a c
I completely get the "yes pointbuy" movement. I really don't get the "no rolling" movement.
Even if you don't like it, what justification do you have to deny it to others?
As an option, it's fine, but rolling stats as the default needs to die in a fire.
It isn't the default. It's just one of two options. All options should be the "default" OR put another way, there should be no "default" method. Choose what you like and be done with it.
As an option, it's fine, but rolling stats as the default needs to die in a fire.[/quote]It isn't the default. It's just one of two options. All options should be the "default" OR put another way, there should be no "default" method. Choose what y
I completely get the "yes pointbuy" movement. I really don't get the "no rolling" movement.
Even if you don't like it, what justification do you have to deny it to others?
As an option, it's fine, but rolling stats as the default needs to die in a fire.
It isn't the default. It's just one of two options. All options should be the "default" OR put another way, there should be no "default" method. Choose what you like and be done with it.
Not according to the document. It clearly states rolling as the default, and the array as an option.
As an option, it's fine, but rolling stats as the default needs to die in a fire.[/quote]It isn't the default. It's just one of two options. All options should be the "default" OR put another way, there should be no "default" method. Choose what y
I completely get the "yes pointbuy" movement. I really don't get the "no rolling" movement.
Even if you don't like it, what justification do you have to deny it to others?
Because for the simple reason that rolling at least one 18(44%) and rolling nothing better than a 14(74%) are far more common in a party of 6 situation than people generally believe. When the default method of character generation leads to roughly a third of the tables having one person with a +2 advantage over someone else, that's when bad social behaviors tend to come out. i.e. whining, begging, cheating, DM favortism(you can re-roll, but you can't), etc...
Because for the simple reason that rolling at least one 18(44%) and rolling nothing better than a 14(74%) are far more common in a party of 6 situation than people generally believe. When the default method of character generation leads to roughly a
Because for the simple reason that rolling at least one 18(44%) and rolling nothing better than a 14(74%) are far more common in a party of 6 situation than people generally believe. When the default method of character generation leads to roughly a third of the tables having one person with a +2 advantage over someone else, that's when bad social behaviors tend to come out. i.e. whining, begging, cheating, DM favortism(you can re-roll, but you can't), etc...
The DM doesn't show favoritism normally, but if someone has a +2...then suddenly they will? A person doesn't cheat normally...but if someone else has a +2 they will?
I see I gave modern gamers -way- too much credit.
The DM doesn't show favoritism normally, but if someone has a +2...then suddenly they will? A person doesn't cheat normally...but if someone else has a +2 they will?I see I gave modern gamers -way- too much credit.
I completely get the "yes pointbuy" movement. I really don't get the "no rolling" movement.
Even if you don't like it, what justification do you have to deny it to others?
As an option, it's fine, but rolling stats as the default needs to die in a fire.
It isn't the default. It's just one of two options. All options should be the "default" OR put another way, there should be no "default" method. Choose what you like and be done with it.
Not according to the document. It clearly states rolling as the default, and the array as an option.
It says normally, which implies that there are other default methods that aren't the main one. When it gets to the array, it doesn't say this is an OPTIONAL rule or a MODULE, it says that if you don't like rolling, this is a method also. The array is default, it's just not the first one on the list.
As an option, it's fine, but rolling stats as the default needs to die in a fire.[/quote]It isn't the default. It's just one of two options. All options should be the "default" OR put another way, there should be no "default" method. Choose what y
I completely get the "yes pointbuy" movement. I really don't get the "no rolling" movement.
Even if you don't like it, what justification do you have to deny it to others?
Because for the simple reason that rolling at least one 18(44%) and rolling nothing better than a 14(74%) are far more common in a party of 6 situation than people generally believe.
Seriously? What do you care if my group rolls dice? If you don't like it, choose one of the other options.
When the default method of character generation leads to roughly a third of the tables having one person with a +2 advantage over someone else, that's when bad social behaviors tend to come out. i.e. whining, begging, cheating, DM favortism(you can re-roll, but you can't), etc...
That's a maturity issue, not game issue.
Because for the simple reason that rolling at least one 18(44%) and rolling nothing better than a 14(74%) are far more common in a party of 6 situation than people generally believe.[/quote]Seriously? What do you care if my group rolls dice? If you
Because for the simple reason that rolling at least one 18(44%) and rolling nothing better than a 14(74%) are far more common in a party of 6 situation than people generally believe. When the default method of character generation leads to roughly a third of the tables having one person with a +2 advantage over someone else, that's when bad social behaviors tend to come out. i.e. whining, begging, cheating, DM favortism(you can re-roll, but you can't), etc...
The DM doesn't show favoritism normally, but if someone has a +2...then suddenly they will? A person doesn't cheat normally...but if someone else has a +2 they will?
I see I gave modern gamers -way- too much credit.
Who is talking modern gamers? Modern gamers use point buy...the problems that happen with rolling were ancient history.
If you've played AD&D, particularly back in the day, people having phenemenally high ability scores were not rare, but rather expected. Look at Rogue's Gallery as examples: Valerius: 18/17/16/15/13/9 Tenser: 18/16/16/16/11/10 Talbot: 17/16/13/12/10/9 Serten: 18/17/15/15/10/7 Robilar: 18(78)/18/16/16/16/11 Riggby: 17/16/15/14/14/11 Phoebus: 18(00)/18/17/15/14/9 Mordenkainen: 18/18/17/17/12/10 Luther: 18/17/16/15/15/15 Lassiviren the Dark: 16/14/12/11/8/5 Lanolin: 18/16/12/9/9/8 Gormadoc: 17/15/12/11/10/9 Grimslade 16/12/10/10/9/9 Erac's Cousin: 18/17/16/15/13/8 Fletcher Dandairia: 18/17/17/16/16/14 Cea: 16/14/14/13/12/11 Bigby: 18/17/16/15/11/10 Arrarat: 18/17/16/14/13/12
See any characters in there that look like they were rolled with 3d6? Or for that matter, 4d6, take the best 3? Look at Mordenkainen, EGG's character - what rolling system do you think he used to get 2 18s and 2 17s? And if you're playing a game and someone rolls a couple of 18s and 17s and you don't roll better than a 14, what do you do? Or more importantly, what does the average player do? If EGG manages to get a character with those kinds of scores, why shouldn't everyone else?
The DM doesn't show favoritism normally, but if someone has a +2...then suddenly they will? A person doesn't cheat normally...but if someone else has a +2 they will?I see I gave modern gamers -way- too much credit.[/quote]Who is talking modern gamer
I completely get the "yes pointbuy" movement. I really don't get the "no rolling" movement.
Even if you don't like it, what justification do you have to deny it to others?
Because for the simple reason that rolling at least one 18(44%) and rolling nothing better than a 14(74%) are far more common in a party of 6 situation than people generally believe.
Seriously? What do you care if my group rolls dice? If you don't like it, choose one of the other options.
I don't care if your group rolls dice. I do care when players new to D&D choose to use dice and then learn that bad behaviors get results.
Because for the simple reason that rolling at least one 18(44%) and rolling nothing better than a 14(74%) are far more common in a party of 6 situation than people generally believe.[/quote]Seriously? What do you care if my group rolls dice? If you
Rolling, Point Buy and multiple Arrays should all be in the core game.
For the RPGA/D&D Encounters/etc. they will never allow rolling. It's too random for a standardized, one-size-fits-all events.
Rolling, Point Buy and multiple Arrays should all be in the core game. For the RPGA/D&D Encounters/etc. they will never allow rolling. It's too random for a standardized, one-size-fits-all events.
Why do any of them have to be standard, if not simply to enshrine one's personal preferences on a pedestal of official legitimacy?
Hear, hear!
There have been some insightful suggestions on this thread about possible point buy systems but trying to decide what should be "default" or "standard" seems silly. I think rolling stats is the most interesting way to generate characters but some other non-random method should be supplied as well.
I always thought that the point of D&D was to create a game environment where people had fun and that the whole point of having a DM (v. just a computer program, board game, or novel) was that this entertaining environment could be maintained no matter what happened. The idea that players are "competeing" with each other and that one of them might have a leg up when stats are rolled or that players would cheat to compensate for poorly rolled stats seems to be missing the whole point of D&D.
OR maybe I just happen to play with a well-adjusted, friendly group of people and you all play with petty, schemeing rule lawyers.
Hear, hear!There have been some insightful suggestions on this thread about possible point buy systems but trying to decide what should be "default" or "standard" seems silly. I think rolling stats is the most interesting way to generate characters b
See any characters in there that look like they were rolled with 3d6? Or for that matter, 4d6, take the best 3? Look at Mordenkainen, EGG's character - what rolling system do you think he used to get 2 18s and 2 17s? And if you're playing a game and someone rolls a couple of 18s and 17s and you don't roll better than a 14, what do you do? Or more importantly, what does the average player do? If EGG manages to get a character with those kinds of scores, why shouldn't everyone else?
I don't care if your group rolls dice. I do care when players new to D&D choose to use dice and then learn that bad behaviors get results.
I would care about that, too. I wouldn't want kids being taught falsehoods like choosing to use dice results in bad behaviors. Better to teach them how the world really works and teach them personal accountability. If someone is behaving badly, it's that person is solely responsible and not anyone or anything elses.
Seriously, if you play with people who start behaving badly if dice are rolled for stats, it's time for you to get a new group that has some maturity.
I would care about that, too. I wouldn't want kids being taught falsehoods like choosing to use dice results in bad behaviors. Better to teach them how the world really works and teach them personal accountability. If someone is behaving badly, it
OR maybe I just happen to play with a well-adjusted, friendly group of people and you all play with petty, schemeing rule lawyers.
I think you're missing the point.
Several people have already pointed out that their group isn't a concern, they play with friends use point buy and all that. Lets face it, none of us that have been playing across 3-4 editions of D&D need permission from WotC to do whatever we want.
However. 5e is an attempt to draw new people in and bring back players who like old editions. If they fail to bring in new players they have failed. Now, lets assume a couple guys decide to see what D&D is all about and buy a couple of books, they roll their stats and one guy rolls very well and another rolls very poorly. Odds are extremely good that will negatively impact their experience with the game. Will they quit because of it? Maybe, maybe not. Would they have had more fun with point buy? Almost certainly.
It comes down to making the game accessable to the maximum number of new players and having the maximum retention among players who give it a try. This is not for you. This is for the hobby as a whole.
I think you're missing the point.Several people have already pointed out that their group isn't a concern, they play with friends use point buy and all that. Lets face it, none of us that have been playing across 3-4 editions of D&D need permission
Nah, but seriously. It is up to the DM, anyways. Go fry a bigger fish.
I'll take my chances any day. How else to you get a better score than eltie array or point buy?This is what I think of such security blankets!www.youtube.com/watch?v=OylIIrJpn0sNah, but seriously. It is up to the DM, anyways. Go fry a bigger fish.
The DM doesn't show favoritism normally, but if someone has a +2...then suddenly they will?
Sure they will. Isn't this part and parcel with the whole concept where the DM is supposed to be balancing the party in play should discrepancies arise? You know, by giving extras, either in mechanics, loots or story time to the weaker PCs and trying to reign in the stronger ones.
A person doesn't cheat normally...but if someone else has a +2 they will?
People's morals aren't written in black and white. If you give them enough temptation, and they think they can get away with it, they'll try to cheat. Giving people one roll that will stick with them for the rest of their character's life makes that roll much bigger and more important. It increases the temptation to cheat and that means you will find some cheaters if you have enough players. Heck, I've seen a couple players try to cheat on rolling for stats that would never have tried to pull that sort of thing for an attack roll or skill check. Granted, we were just teenagers, but aren't most new people?
Sure they will. Isn't this part and parcel with the whole concept where the DM is supposed to be balancing the party in play should discrepancies arise? You know, by giving extras, either in mechanics, loots or story time to the weaker PCs and tryi
Why do any of them have to be standard, if not simply to enshrine one's personal preferences on a pedestal of official legitimacy?
Hear, hear!
There have been some insightful suggestions on this thread about possible point buy systems but trying to decide what should be "default" or "standard" seems silly. I think rolling stats is the most interesting way to generate characters but some other non-random method should be supplied as well.
I always thought that the point of D&D was to create a game environment where people had fun and that the whole point of having a DM (v. just a computer program, board game, or novel) was that this entertaining environment could be maintained no matter what happened. The idea that players are "competeing" with each other and that one of them might have a leg up when stats are rolled or that players would cheat to compensate for poorly rolled stats seems to be missing the whole point of D&D.
OR maybe I just happen to play with a well-adjusted, friendly group of people and you all play with petty, schemeing rule lawyers.
"Good fences make good neighbors." Your crowd of "well-adjusted, friendly" people are very likely to become "petty, schemeing rule lawyers" when they are given the chance. Those of us who played under dice roll methods know [or should know] this full well. It may be missing the point of D&D to cheat, but it is done routinely.
Hear, hear!There have been some insightful suggestions on this thread about possible point buy systems but trying to decide what should be "default" or "standard" seems silly. I think rolling stats is the most interesting way to generate characters b
OR maybe I just happen to play with a well-adjusted, friendly group of people and you all play with petty, schemeing rule lawyers.
I think you're missing the point.
Several people have already pointed out that their group isn't a concern, they play with friends use point buy and all that. Lets face it, none of us that have been playing across 3-4 editions of D&D need permission from WotC to do whatever we want.
However. 5e is an attempt to draw new people in and bring back players who like old editions. If they fail to bring in new players they have failed. Now, lets assume a couple guys decide to see what D&D is all about and buy a couple of books, they roll their stats and one guy rolls very well and another rolls very poorly. Odds are extremely good that will negatively impact their experience with the game. Will they quit because of it? Maybe, maybe not. Would they have had more fun with point buy? Almost certainly.
It comes down to making the game accessable to the maximum number of new players and having the maximum retention among players who give it a try. This is not for you. This is for the hobby as a whole.
Ok, maybe I am not putting myself back far enough (posting to this forum shows that I was not deterrred by poorly rolled stats). I am for adding to the player base and if that means having a point buy or array option, then go for it. It is the "default" or "standard" designation that makes me pause.
I think you're missing the point.Several people have already pointed out that their group isn't a concern, they play with friends use point buy and all that. Lets face it, none of us that have been playing across 3-4 editions of D&D need permission
Who is talking modern gamers? Modern gamers use point buy...the problems that happen with rolling were ancient history.
True freaking story.
At my place of work, there is a quote, ostensibly from W. Edwards Deming, stating, "Quality is largely the control and elimination of variance."1 Even applying this casually to D&D character generation makes me really doubt that random ability generation can reliably produce a quality character. It simply has too much variance.
Now, I'm not saying ban rolling whatsoever. I'm saying have the option of point-buy or fixed array, so I can politely ignore someone who's talking about his characters rolled stats.
1. I just finished reading Out of the Crisis, and I don't recall seeing it there. I was also unsuccessful with my Google-fu, so I question if this quote (or something close to it) actually came from Deming. Anyone into Lean/Six Sigma/TQM?
True freaking story.At my place of work, there is a quote, ostensibly from W. Edwards Deming, stating, "Quality is largely the control and elimination of variance."1 Even applying this casually to D&D character generation makes me really doubt that
In D&D characters 18 is commonplace and 20 is routine. D&D 1e was fun when an 18 was rare. Point buy systems result in even number ability scores and a prime stat of 18 before racial modifiers. I was pleased with the emphasis on random rolls in character creation although I would like to see less emphasis on ability scores and a random method that still maintained moderately balanced characters at the end.
The 5e pre-gen human cleric clearly has the advantage over the dwarves, elf, and halfling.
In D&D characters 18 is commonplace and 20 is routine. D&D 1e was fun when an 18 was rare. Point buy systems result in even number ability scores and a prime stat of 18 before racial modifiers. I was pleased with the emphasis on random rolls in chara
There wouldn't be so much problem if abilities weren't used everywhere, ignoring that experience (character level) should be the primary ability for everyone after a few levels.
There wouldn't be so much problem if abilities weren't used everywhere, ignoring that experience (character level) should be the primary ability for everyone after a few levels.
