I'm paying enough taxes in real life , why should my hero pay them too? I want an high fantasy game not Papers&Paychecks...
That's hilarious!
3e made some very serious changes to my game but I kept a lot of the stuff I used in AD&D when we changed over. All of the costs for upkeep and training, taxes are pretty brutal at 15%, but it drains off serious cash.
It really bothered me when I had to give the players a ton of junk just so the game didn't ruin them. I don't mind giving out stuff, but using the same things over and over with a different number attached isn't my idea of magical. I really hated to have to watch the ever inflated treasure requirements in a world that was supposed to be on a silver standard where the average Georg made a measly 5 silverpieces a month.
I stopped playing 3e and never played 4e, and I'm very sick of the 3e clone that failed to do anything about fixing the stuff I loathe about 3e. As soon as I can get the others to move on I'm pretty sure that next can be something worth playing. I can fix the stuff I don't care for such as unlimited at will spells. Four or five cantrips per short rest works for me.
it's the single, biggest factor to the magic mart. anytime i've seen a +X item, either X is incorporated into the math and is required (thus making PCs constant magic mart customers), or X is entirely seperate from the math and only makes the PCs better (thus making them seek out these items that put them ahead of the curve).
either way though, what do they do with their old +X items? if your rogues get a +2 rapier, what do you do with his old +1 rapier? do you give it to someone else? i doubt the barbarian will trade in his Greataxe for the rapier and i'm not quite sure the wizard would know the stabbing end from the holding end.
so what do you do with the +1 rapier? do you lug it around in the unique chance your +2 rapier is unavailable but that one is?
the +1 rapier is obsolete. it gets sold off.
kill off the mechanical need for the +X sword and you're well on your way to making the game less dependant off the magic mart
second, make items more potent in higher level PCs. even if you drop the +X part of the magic sword, if it's effects are not really that effective at higher level play, the magic sword will be ignored the second a better one comes along.
in my own 4th ed games i used the inherent bonuses present in the DMG2/Darksun. so when you arrived at the +2/3/4... bonus you became capabale of making better use of the item, getting more mileage out of them and got access to their better abilities.
basically, if you want to remove the magic item mart, you need to find a way to make make most every magic item relevant at all levels of play, and since D&D covers a wide scope of play, the items should do the same.
one thing to keep in mind is that players will always look for magic items if they're present in the game. a magic sword that makes you +1 better to hit is always better then a normal sword until the +2 sword comes along, or boots that make you fly (items that give more options) will always be requested over boots that are just boots.
a third thing to lessen the blow is to give each character more built-in options. i really don't care what anyone says: the martial characters don't get much love in D&D. their built-in options are "hit with stick" or "poke with stick" and slight variations thereof.
the casters get flight, invisibility, teleportation, the ability to conjure creatures or objects.
it's no wonder the Fighter lights up like a christmas tree with magic items, while the wizard spends all his cash on scrolls: the Fighter wants to be able to do neat things like the wizard without many of the wizardly trappings or mechanics.
and no, you can't really "just be creative/use your imagination" away "i want to teleport to the balcony"
basically, give all characters options that allow them to tackle a wide berth of situations. now, i don't mean to say "let all fighters teleport" but give him the ability to do great leaps from point A to point B. that weay he won't have the "wizard envy" since he'll have abilities other then "whack with stick".
it'll also reduce dependancy on characters dressing up with magic items to cover all situations since they can handle a far larger scope themselves.
"All right, I've been thinking. When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back. GET MAD! I DON'T WANT YOUR **** LEMONS! WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO WITH THESE?! DEMAND TO SEE LIFE'S MANAGER! Make life RUE the day it thought it could give CAVE JOHNSON LEMONS! DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?! I'M THE MAN WHO'S GONNA BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN! WITH THE LEMONS! I'm gonna get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that's gonna BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN!" -Cave Johnson, Portal 2
it's the single, biggest factor to the magic mart. anytime i've seen a +X item, either X is incorporated into the math and is required (thus making PCs constant magic mart customers), or X is entirely seperate from the math and only makes the PCs better (thus making them seek out these items that put them ahead of the curve).
either way though, what do they do with their old +X items? if your rogues get a +2 rapier, what do you do with his old +1 rapier? do you give it to someone else? i doubt the barbarian will trade in his Greataxe for the rapier and i'm not quite sure the wizard would know the stabbing end from the holding end.
so what do you do with the +1 rapier? do you lug it around in the unique chance your +2 rapier is unavailable but that one is?
the +1 rapier is obsolete. it gets sold off.
kill off the mechanical need for the +X sword and you're well on your way to making the game less dependant off the magic mart
second, make items more potent in higher level PCs. even if you drop the +X part of the magic sword, if it's effects are not really that effective at higher level play, the magic sword will be ignored the second a better one comes along.
in my own 4th ed games i used the inherent bonuses present in the DMG2/Darksun. so when you arrived at the +2/3/4... bonus you became capabale of making better use of the item, getting more mileage out of them and got access to their better abilities.
basically, if you want to remove the magic item mart, you need to find a way to make make most every magic item relevant at all levels of play, and since D&D covers a wide scope of play, the items should do the same.
one thing to keep in mind is that players will always look for magic items if they're present in the game. a magic sword that makes you +1 better to hit is always better then a normal sword until the +2 sword comes along, or boots that make you fly (items that give more options) will always be requested over boots that are just boots.
a third thing to lessen the blow is to give each character more built-in options. i really don't care what anyone says: the martial characters don't get much love in D&D. their built-in options are "hit with stick" or "poke with stick" and slight variations thereof.
the casters get flight, invisibility, teleportation, the ability to conjure creatures or objects.
it's no wonder the Fighter lights up like a christmas tree with magic items, while the wizard spends all his cash on scrolls: the Fighter wants to be able to do neat things like the wizard without many of the wizardly trappings or mechanics.
and no, you can't really "just be creative/use your imagination" away "i want to teleport to the balcony"
basically, give all characters options that allow them to tackle a wide berth of situations. now, i don't mean to say "let all fighters teleport" but give him the ability to do great leaps from point A to point B. that weay he won't have the "wizard envy" since he'll have abilities other then "whack with stick".
it'll also reduce dependancy on characters dressing up with magic items to cover all situations since they can handle a far larger scope themselves.
just my 2cp.
+X items don't have any more to do with magic mart than any other magic item type. As a player, we often found wondrous items that no one wanted and we sold off. We found a lot more of those than +X weapon upgrades.
The best way to kill off magic mart is to simply not put it into the game as the DM. Magic mart only exists if the DM wants it to exist.
it's the single, biggest factor to the magic mart. anytime i've seen a +X item, either X is incorporated into the math and is required (thus making PCs constant magic mart customers), or X is entirely seperate from the math and only makes the PCs better (thus making them seek out these items that put them ahead of the curve).
either way though, what do they do with their old +X items? if your rogues get a +2 rapier, what do you do with his old +1 rapier? do you give it to someone else? i doubt the barbarian will trade in his Greataxe for the rapier and i'm not quite sure the wizard would know the stabbing end from the holding end.
so what do you do with the +1 rapier? do you lug it around in the unique chance your +2 rapier is unavailable but that one is?
the +1 rapier is obsolete. it gets sold off.
kill off the mechanical need for the +X sword and you're well on your way to making the game less dependant off the magic mart
second, make items more potent in higher level PCs. even if you drop the +X part of the magic sword, if it's effects are not really that effective at higher level play, the magic sword will be ignored the second a better one comes along.
in my own 4th ed games i used the inherent bonuses present in the DMG2/Darksun. so when you arrived at the +2/3/4... bonus you became capabale of making better use of the item, getting more mileage out of them and got access to their better abilities.
basically, if you want to remove the magic item mart, you need to find a way to make make most every magic item relevant at all levels of play, and since D&D covers a wide scope of play, the items should do the same.
one thing to keep in mind is that players will always look for magic items if they're present in the game. a magic sword that makes you +1 better to hit is always better then a normal sword until the +2 sword comes along, or boots that make you fly (items that give more options) will always be requested over boots that are just boots.
a third thing to lessen the blow is to give each character more built-in options. i really don't care what anyone says: the martial characters don't get much love in D&D. their built-in options are "hit with stick" or "poke with stick" and slight variations thereof.
the casters get flight, invisibility, teleportation, the ability to conjure creatures or objects.
it's no wonder the Fighter lights up like a christmas tree with magic items, while the wizard spends all his cash on scrolls: the Fighter wants to be able to do neat things like the wizard without many of the wizardly trappings or mechanics.
and no, you can't really "just be creative/use your imagination" away "i want to teleport to the balcony"
basically, give all characters options that allow them to tackle a wide berth of situations. now, i don't mean to say "let all fighters teleport" but give him the ability to do great leaps from point A to point B. that weay he won't have the "wizard envy" since he'll have abilities other then "whack with stick".
it'll also reduce dependancy on characters dressing up with magic items to cover all situations since they can handle a far larger scope themselves.
just my 2cp.
+X items don't have any more to do with magic mart than any other magic item type. As a player, we often found wondrous items that no one wanted and we sold off. We found a lot more of those than +X weapon upgrades.
The best way to kill off magic mart is to simply not put it into the game as the DM. Magic mart only exists if the DM wants it to exist.
This may be the most effective way. Best is an entirely different story. We already know the player will want that +2 weapon, and will want something for his old +1, both desires easily handled by the magic mart. Since the DM is there to serve the players, we have a default case for the magic mart. We can point to a number of things the player wants, but can't be allowed to have, but it is still the DM's duty to understand why and only refuse that which is actually harmful to the game. So far, the magic mart is proving quite useful to the game.
